Redeeming qualities of the Enclave?

IIRC the effects of rads are lethal WAY before 1000.

Its just that 1000 is basically 'you ded no matter what'.

It's why I wish the water purifier in Megaton gave rad-less water. It seems like a mistake and would go a long way to explaining why the Capital Wasteland is the way it is. If you can only have your population fed enough water as you can purify, that goes a long way to explaining why it's still shit 200 years later.

The Bethesda's writers should have read Dune before writing about the lack of water problem in Fallout 3. In this book this issue is covered ALL THE TIME!!!!

Side note: Elijah is my favorite fallout's villain. How crazy and dangerous this old man are.

At the risk of being nitpicky, the Fremen notably have all the water they could ever need to drink. They are, instead, hording it to terra-form the planet. It is unnecessary, though, because Paul conquers the Empire.

It's an illustration not of the desperation of the Fremen's situation but that they are completely utterly batshit fanatic about whatever cause they undertake.
 
There's a difference between the acute and chronic effects of radiation. Acute effects are basically radiation sickness. Direct damage to your tissues and organs, faster than the body can repair them. Take a lot of radiation in one go, and it will kill you.

Chronic effects are a random process. Even if the damage to your tissues is small enough to be repaired by your body, there is still the chance that the radiation has damaged your DNA. Damaged DNA mainly manifests itself as an increase cancer risk. A dose of 5Sv of radiation will kill you if you take it all on one go. If you take it in gradually, it will still damage your DNA, but it won't kill you directly. 5Sv taken gradually will increase your risk of cancer by about 25% (or about a quarter the risk of smoking a pack of cigarettes a day), but if you're lucky, it won't damage anything important.

But that is real world radiation.

In the real world a doctor in a broken down shack with no advanced equipment can't treat radiation damage, while in Fallout they can instantly, even the player can using a My First infirmary or just popping a rad-away.
Also in real life there is no ghouls created by radiation and severe radiation poisoning usually sends you into a hospital bed without being able to move and most cases result in death even with the best medical care in the world, while in Fallout we can walk around and fight and do stuff normally and then pay a doctor or use rad-away and all is dandy again.
Also in Fallout radiation doesn't leave any damage in the body after being treated.

Fallout radiation is very different from real world one which can be seen in every game of the series.
 
But that is real world radiation.

In the real world a doctor in a broken down shack with no advanced equipment can't treat radiation damage, while in Fallout they can instantly, even the player can using a My First infirmary or just popping a rad-away.
Also in real life there is no ghouls created by radiation and severe radiation poisoning usually sends you into a hospital bed without being able to move and most cases result in death even with the best medical care in the world, while in Fallout we can walk around and fight and do stuff normally and then pay a doctor or use rad-away and all is dandy again.
Also in Fallout radiation doesn't leave any damage in the body after being treated.

Fallout radiation is very different from real world one which can be seen in every game of the series.

This is very true
 
The Enclave, by contrast, offer real-world social critique on the United States and factionalism as well as prejudice--however blunt and direct it is. Certainly, I think the Enclave's plan is more feasible than the Master's and has more dignity than the horror show of making giant orcs out of mankind or keeping us in camps until we die.

Shooting unarmed civilians who pose no threat (including children), kidnapping entire villages and Vault dwellers for horrific experiments, delivering very dangerous laser weaponry to criminal gangs in exchange for slaves and ultimately creating a virus that'll wipe out the vast majority of life on Earth save for the select few. Yes very dignified.

Whereas the Master, as flawed as his plan is, I can sympathize with his end goal of creating a world where all are the same and are able to survive much better in the post-nuclear world. Global genocide...eh not so much.

The Master wanted to create a strong civilization that would thrive, the Enclave just want to dominate whoever is left.
 
Shooting unarmed civilians who pose no threat (including children), kidnapping entire villages and Vault dwellers for horrific experiments, delivering very dangerous laser weaponry to criminal gangs in exchange for slaves and ultimately creating a virus that'll wipe out the vast majority of life on Earth save for the select few. Yes very dignified.

Whereas the Master, as flawed as his plan is, I can sympathize with his end goal of creating a world where all are the same and are able to survive much better in the post-nuclear world. Global genocide...eh not so much.

The Master wanted to create a strong civilization that would thrive, the Enclave just want to dominate whoever is left.

The Master wanted to turn people into big mutant giants he controlled with his Charles Xavier powers, eliminating all individuality and destroying humanity as a species because he believed they were a master race. The Enclave believed humanity was already a master race and that whatever deviated from it should be destroyed. The only difference I see between their two plans is humanity survives in the Enclave's vision of the future. Greatly reduced and maybe harder to survive but it survives. A pathetic horrible parody of mankind survives in the Master's vision of the world.

I'm not defending the Enclave, just saying the Master is worse.
 
The Master wanted to turn people into big mutant giants he controlled with his Charles Xavier powers, eliminating all individuality and destroying humanity as a species because he believed they were a master race. The Enclave believed humanity was already a master race and that whatever deviated from it should be destroyed. The only difference I see between their two plans is humanity survives in the Enclave's vision of the future. Greatly reduced and maybe harder to survive but it survives. A pathetic horrible parody of mankind survives in the Master's vision of the world.

I'm not defending the Enclave, just saying the Master is worse.

The Master didn't control his army with his powers, otherwise the Lieutenant would not have been able to conceal the flaw in the FEV. He didn't want stupid mutants, hence why they were looking for unopened Vaults. The Super Mutants shared a special bond that no one else can understand. Many felt they had a purpose serving the Master and he was the one guiding them. Once he's dead many lament he is gone because they have no where else to go and they believed in his vision. Maybe he influenced some of them to a degree, but the majority of his followers followed him due to believing in him, not because of mind control.

The Master didn't want to erase all individuality, he saw humanity as flawed and thus wanted to uplift them to something stronger yet all the same. When he says "As long as there are differences, we will tear ourselves apart" I don't see it as individual differences, but differences by race, creeds, cultures etc.

I still see the Enclave as worse in their intentions.
 
As far as i am aware, not everyone in the Enclave believed what they were doing was right, and even among those who did it was solely because they believed in something greater than themselves. Apart from how they were written in FO3, you have certain members, most numerously soldiers, who were in my opinion the least evil despite being the deadliest of the factions, and this just goes to prove that soldiers, despite being tasked with ending life to protect life, are just that... soldiers. They want nothing more than solidarity of an idea, a people.

Orion Moreno is a good example of a seemingly evil member not being so evil if you try to understand. He believed in the idea of America, and didn't question his orders because he wanted nothing more than a return to that form, and we all (hopefully) know that the idea of America, with all it's flaws, is a good one. Freedom, Democracy and Law are some of the best ideas humans have come up with when it works.

The Enclave was always doomed though despite having good elements, and this was because it's identity was rooted in evil since before the War. I don't hate the Enclave for what they did, but they needed to be gone.

EDIT: ...and of course, another redeeming quality is the R&D team that designed their Power Armour. Damn, are those puppies sweet-looking and sweet-doing!
 
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I don't know why people say Fallout radiation is so different.

It has some side effects which aren't real, sure, but the Fallout 1-2 symptoms match real life radiation damage.

Its just that Fallout has gamey mechanics which makes said symptoms reversible.

I don't believe there are any canon examples of people with lethal doses of radiation being 'expunged', even RadAway has nasty side effects in small doses.

The only people to survive are players, and that one time when a magic syringe saved EnclaveMcDouchebag.
 
The Master wanted to turn people into big mutant giants he controlled with his Charles Xavier powers, eliminating all individuality and destroying humanity as a species because he believed they were a master race. The Enclave believed humanity was already a master race and that whatever deviated from it should be destroyed. The only difference I see between their two plans is humanity survives in the Enclave's vision of the future. Greatly reduced and maybe harder to survive but it survives. A pathetic horrible parody of mankind survives in the Master's vision of the world.
Supermutants are far stronger, tougher and more fit to survive the wasteland than humans.

They aren't a pathetic, horrible parody, they are a brilliant, improved mankind.
 
Supermutants are far stronger, tougher and more fit to survive the wasteland than humans.

They aren't a pathetic, horrible parody, they are a brilliant, improved mankind.
But their improvements are ultimately superficial as they can't reproduce naturally.
 
Simple idea: Farm humans to breed offspring for you, which will then be dipped.
In an ideal world this would be a sound idea, but those darn pesky Vault Dwellers will just come along and ruin our shizz, and the most numerous humans don't have the common courtesy to be prime normals so that they don't turn into Dumb-Dumbs!
 
Supermutants are far stronger, tougher and more fit to survive the wasteland than humans.

They aren't a pathetic, horrible parody, they are a brilliant, improved mankind.

Physical strength is a pretty pathetic means of measuring survivable adaptability and while the radiation immunity is a big deal, the majority of radiation disappeared after a few weeks.

The Master's actions are also POINTLESS as there's no reason to eliminate regular humanity as that just exists to satisfy his own sadistic ego.
 
I was under the impression that the major reason why the master wanted to make mutants, is that they could be more easily controlled.

While humans needed religious indoctrination.
 
I don't know why people say Fallout radiation is so different.

It has some side effects which aren't real, sure, but the Fallout 1-2 symptoms match real life radiation damage.
Again I point out that Ghouls are not formed in the real world if people get irradiated (every Fallout game ever).
Soda companies do no make radioactive colas in the real world (Fallout 3, 4 and New Vegas) that can be used to make deadly radioactive grenades from, rocket companies do not make toy rockets full of radioactive liquid in the real world (Fallout New Vegas), because those products would kill people and kids in the real world.
Radiation does not stay in the open air and running water so strongly for a century or two (Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 for almost a century and Fallout 3 and 4 for more than two centuries).
In the real world you can expose animals to a nuke's radiation all you want and you won't be getting giant cockroaches, giant ants, giant scorpions, giant flies, giant lizards, giant rats, giant mantises, etc.
I don't believe there are any canon examples of people with lethal doses of radiation being 'expunged', even RadAway has nasty side effects in small doses.

The only people to survive are players, and that one time when a magic syringe saved EnclaveMcDouchebag.
If a doctor in the classic fallout games can rid the player of all the rads for some pocket money, what is preventing him from doing the same to everyone else who has the money and is suffering from radiation?
Also we do see someone suffering from extreme radiation poisoning in Fallout 2, Charlie is sick in his tent and if the player has enough Doctor skill, we will know it is because of advanced radiation poisoning, all we need to heal him is inject him with one radaway and he instantly gets up and is all fine, so radaway does also make radiation vanish from NPCs too.
Effects of radiation poisoning are totally wrong, again in Fallout 1 and 2 all it happens is that the characters lose some SPECIAL points, even if they are at death's doors they can still walk and talk to people, travel miles through a wasteland, etc. In real life it will reach a point where you can't even get up from bed and barely say a word.
Also RadAway does not have any nasty effects in the classic games, nothing bad happens when the player uses radaway, if the player gets addicted to it the only negative that happens is that his radiation resistance is lowered. It doesn't affect his SPECIAL, AP, HP, AC, skills or anything else in any way. The game might say that you have a headache, or lost some hair or that you have stomach pains but since your SPECIAL or anything else doesn't get a penalty then it is not severe enough to be considered "nasty side effects in small doses" (if it said you have headaches and penalized your intelligence, if you have a stomach pain and penalized your constitution, if you have hair loss and penalized your charisma, even if it was just 1 point penalty, then it would be nasty).

Remember that radiation in Fallout universe is how sci-fi authors in the 50's imagined radiation was, it was like a mystical magic force that could be used to explain giant animals and mutated creatures, immortality and super powers, etc.
 
I was under the impression that the major reason why the master wanted to make mutants, is that they could be more easily controlled.

While humans needed religious indoctrination.

Don't want to dwelve further into it today, but from what i got from the game itself is that Richard Grey, and a good bunch of humanity during his time, is still dealing with the trauma of the great war. Richard Grey's plan, as flawed as it, has the ultimate goal of preventing that trauma to ever happen again, by abolishing differences, and part of humanity's free will. If everyone is a brother serving the unity, there is no reason for further wars. Dumb-dumb aren't the best ressources to help the Master convert everyone, nor the best tools to help the new society thrive, but they don't contradict the goal of the unity. You don't need to be a genious to follow the unity and care for your brothers.
 
Physical strength is a pretty pathetic means of measuring survivable adaptability and while the radiation immunity is a big deal, the majority of radiation disappeared after a few weeks.

The Master's actions are also POINTLESS as there's no reason to eliminate regular humanity as that just exists to satisfy his own sadistic ego.

At the time of the first game, the future is very uncertain. Super mutants are strong, immune against essentially all disease and cannot be harmed by radiation. This makes an ideal race to survive into the future. If you show the Master proof that they are all sterile he beomes despondent and gives up, if he was just doing it for his ego he won't care whether or not they're sterile.

I was under the impression that the major reason why the master wanted to make mutants, is that they could be more easily controlled.

While humans needed religious indoctrination.

The Children of the Cathedral was mainly set-up to give the Master a spy network, seeing as super mutants aren't exactly the friendliest looking. If the Master just wanted drones to control then why bother looking for unopened Vaults? He clearly wants super mutants that are more intelligent than say, Harry. EDIT: Like I said above, super mutants are far superior to humans in terms of surviving the post-nuclear world. Sterility was an unfortunate (or fortunate depending on how you look at it) effect of FEV.

Also RadAway does not have any nasty effects in the classic games, nothing bad happens when the player uses radaway,

Gameplay wise it doesn't, however IIRC it's said lore-wise that once you use Radaway it has to pass through your body, which is unpleasant and can take a while.




I get that the Master wasn't a good guy (if you'll pardon the term), however I do feel he had more empathy and good intentions within him than the Enclave and its "kill everything that isn't us" plan.
 
Gameplay wise it doesn't, however IIRC it's said lore-wise that once you use Radaway it has to pass through your body, which is unpleasant and can take a while.
The only thing i can remember about actual lore is that it takes hours to achieve the full effect and that it is a strong diuretic (makes you need to pee a lot).
I think in classic games it would show a message saying that you had stomach pains, headache or hair loss sometimes after taking it. But I was never sure if it was because of the rad away or if it was radiation effects before the rads were removed. I assume it was the radaway because those messages would appear while under the effects of it though.
 
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