Rosh on Fallout 3

[aries369]

If we don't start countering their hype as soon as it starts, the series is doomed... even more than that what it is already.

Even bad publicity is publicity. As long as you haven't played the game most people will not believe you - and then it's too late.
Do you see any results from complaining on Oblivion or StarTrek:Legacy ? I do not.
Bethesda's bad guys are bulldozing their way to console mainstream shit and will not look for your opinion.
Hype is possible with and without the help of NMA. The teenie xbox audience isn't among old Fallout fans - no one will hear you, and those who call Oblivion a great "RPG" will not hear you, too.
The better way is to fight for a good game - but I fear this fight has no chance, it's lost since Beth has bought the franchise.
So you can complain or fight all day - it's just a waste of time.
Let's say Fallout 3 will never be released - Beth is delivering some kind of postapocalyptic action shooter with a similar title.
You should begin to forget all about Fallout 3 and to look grumbling for alternative games.

I think you're making the same mistake as Bethesda Softworks
andZenimax Media in thinking that it is only the teenies who owns
an Xbox 360.

I have asked about this in my local EB Games Shop and the clerk (the person behind the counter) told me that the Xbox 360 actually seemed to be bought by people in the age range from 25-40 or so. As the games for Xbox (360) seemed to be a little more grown-up, adult or mature than the ones for PlayStation 2.

I also happen to know of many families in which there both are a PC for gaming, a PS2 for gaming, and Nintendo DS (Lite) for gaming also.

However, I agree with you that it seems that Bethsoft and Zenimax Media has made a business decision, and that decision is to cater to what they think (or what their marketing deparment thinks) will appeal to their target audience: the 13-19 year old
boy gamers. (which apparently for some odd reason all want action & combat games...)

I think it is a wrong business decision, since the average gamer now is about thirty. And wants games which will appeal (more) to him or her. That means mature (which doesn't = brawdy pubescent sex scenes or the like) content and good storytelling.

 

[Angrim]

I think it is a wrong business decision, since the average gamer now is about thirty. And wants games which will appeal (more) to him or her. That means mature (which doesn't = brawdy pubescent sex scenes or the like) content and good storytelling.

The problem is that the "average gamer" today is not actually a gamer, but some Regular Joe, who now and then likes to play some light console game that is easy to learn and doesn't take too much time to play. Gaming is not a hobby to him, he just likes to sit down for a while between work and going to gym. Or maybe he watches some reality show.

Thanks to him and the consoles, the "true" PC gaming is slowly dying away.

And believe me, he doesn't want "mature content and good storytelling"... You can see that by watching TV programmes that have been targeted for him. Most of them are utter crap.

 

[Morbus]

Disclaimer: This post may seem to be agreeing with taxacardia, but it is in no way related to his/her opinion.

That means mature (which doesn't = brawdy pubescent sex scenes or the like) content and good storytelling.

Well, I guess we all can forget about that kind of things in any Bethesda's game

 

[Briosafreak]

Posting general rumors and acting like a tabloid would be the flaw here. There was a gap of five months when Rosh could have posted whatever he wanted but he didn't. This was only posted here and at the news because Kharn somehow wants to make a final respectful move towards Rosh, but that's all.

I don't think posting every gossip without verification is a good sign about that site's credibility and will to give the best news possible for the readers.

Doing true independent investigation still is very different from posting rumors, that's something that people these days don't expect from most gaming sites but I hope they do regarding NMA.


That is one of the reasons that this place is still growing after all these years.

If Rosh is doing all this noise purely for the love of the community and the tradition of the games that's ok, but if this is also a question of power and intolerance for him I say let's move on and focus on the real issues that are more important now, a thing that we were all doing, in different ways, using good standards and practices.

 

[sanyok21]

well, anyone who reads the discussion at RPG codex between rosh and kharn, will see that NMA has lost a lot of credibility by how things were handeled. On the other hand, Rosh might have done a lot of hand waiving, but he didn't explain how exactly you could have done the "digging" and made some influence on the devs at bethsoft. You all admins are fighting for the same cause, and Rosh is a valuable asset. Why couldn't have you just give him his respect, and bow down to him a bit for the sake of getting more info, and work together to try to turn things around a bit in bethsoft, like rosh claims to have been done at the time with FOT and the missions/no maps thingy?

 

[Morbus]

(...) but he didn't explain how exactly you could have done the "digging" and made some influence on the devs at bethsoft.

Well, in my little socially-crippled mind, and according to my personal very-much-opposite-to-general-Americanish-standards-way-of-thinking, that particular fact completely shows that Rosh is/was not willing to help, and that his attitudes are/were not completely-well-meant...

 

[mortiz]

Exactly, it's not like Kahn could just drop by BethSoft's offices and eve's drop some info. Rosh's privalidged position within the industry has obviously made him privy to more info than the unwashed masses, yet he seems to think that everyone, whether in the industry or not should have the same ability to squeeze out the info from the BethSoft developers.

I'd like it if he'd post a step by step guide for us retards how to actually accomplish this "digging" he talks about? Short of mind reading. In fact, the Bethesda developers won't even talk to you unless you kiss their ass. Maybe if we had kissed their ass for a while they'd be more open to talk?

 

[Goweigus]

well if maybe he didnt say cause he didnt want to risk some Bethesda people lurkign around seeing what he says and figuring out who he got to talk.

it is unfortunate though, i guess our only hype hope at the moment is the guy who said "dont worry" (forget his name...)

 

[sanyok21]

well according to him NMA have done nothing but that... and that didn't really work...

 

[Briosafreak]

Besides Rosh there are more people involved, there is still a need to be confidence that we're not just moving ourselves into a trap and have some solid ground when things go wrong. In many cases we were sure enough to post the stuff, in others we kept it in the comments and the forum and leave it outside the news, where we need to keep higher standards, but always allowed the discussions.

I was always for a more proactive stance regarding the events surrounding Fallout3, as it happens now, but I also understand that trying to make a better job never equals cutting corners.

And to tell all of you the truth in the case of what Rosh says there are things that I've too heard a few times, but others don't match with what I've heard so far, so I couldn't push for a different way of NMA handling his bursts about Bethesda. And I have a feeling the fact the site is working better now is bothering him to the point that he needed some drama out of spite.

In the end it's false we didn't look for info, it's false his set of info bits were never discussed in this forum, together with what VDweller said, and it's false that he wasn't treated with respect.

And why Rosh is playing the dividing game inside the community right now is beyond me.

 

[sanyok21]

Well, he said he left NMA because no one here cares enough to make an influence instead of waiting and see what happens. From that point of view it makes sense, doesn't it?

 

[mortiz]

And how exactly is the Codex making a difference? They may be more partial to posting the "rumours" but by doing so are they really affecting Beths direction what-so-ever? The fact is Bethesda have retreated into their shell, they're way too pig-headed to take advice from us measly fans, hell, from what Rosh says they're even too pig-headed to take advice from the original creators. If they had taken advice from them they certainly wouldn't be going in the direction they seemingly are doing. Rosh said it himself, Bethesda really don't have a clue.

 

[Briosafreak]

Don't you need to have a solid ground to try to influence events? And you realize that if all off those things were already decided and produced at the time like he states than what is there to influence? What could he change at the time that we can't now? And what could we have changed at the time? And what changes came from the newsbit with these same ideas that once was produced at DAC? Did those ideas reached the front page of the Codex and did they "make a difference"?

So no, it doesn't make sense.

 

[sanyok21]

Ok, well, it would be nice to hear his reaction then... maybe "RPG of the year" can tell us for him...

 

[Brother None]

from what Rosh says they're even too pig-headed to take advice from the original creators.

You said, that it's to late to make greater changes in developement - ok, that's what I've (grumbling) accepted now.

Try to be factual, guys. I was the first person to publically start talking about Bethesda's lack of communication with old devs both here and on DaC, and Rosh states things about the development process that I have no view of. Don't switch the two.

Ok - let's speak about your constructive ideas:

Hey, thanks for the Rosh repost, but you'll find it hard to defend if you don't know what's going on.

Where you around during Tactics or Brotherhood of Steel? Do you understand how the community had influence on the former (especially DaC and Rosh) and on the latter (especially NMA and, again, Rosh)? The answer, I'm guessing, is no?

I can understand that you're still hoping in some kind of cooperation with Beth

No I'm not. Why would you even think that.

The only difference is that there have been many discussions with the devs before release - and many, many lies. The end product was far far away from any old fan's expectations, and all long discussions have been invain - nothing than a waste of time. It's not a shame to fail one time, but it's a shame not to learn from that.

I'm still not getting your point. Do you think I would've bothered at this point if it wasn't so that the "conservative" viewpoints about Fallout are spread far and wide, not just limited to NMA?

This isn't the same thing as Legacy *or* Oblivion, and playing that game is nonsense. There is no guarantee that Bethesda will have a smash hit. I've heard that nonsensical statement made before, and I just don't understand it. Companies way bigger than Bethesda have had enormous flops, including Interplay, and Bethesda's position is severely shaken by Legacy and Oblivion AND the negative word-of-mouth their purchase of the license has generated.

Why, exactly, are we supposed to be the ones that feel scared here?

Excuse me if I come off a bit sharp. Defaitism always gets on my nerves, because with attitudes like yours we'd all be living in the dictatorial empire of France.

Do you have serious doubts in Rosh's and VD's leaked quotes from different sources about Fallout 3?

Yes. That's to say, I have reasons to doubt the factual nature of Rosh's quotes, and VD hasn't really revealed all that much. They're both too vague to say much about it, and the rumours have had equally vague counter-rumours.

This is mostly why we don't post rumours on the frontpage, and why this was the exception and not the rule, because it always leads to weakening of the site's position and nonsensical debates.

 

[sanyok21]

What? There's absolutely nothing vague about what Rosh said. He stated quite bluntly in his quotes that the game will be exactly Obivion with guns. He described the battle system to quite a specific extent, stated that the dialogue trees will be an extra, and.. blabla, no reason to put what he said in other words. Bottom line, his description draws the game to pretty much one option, and looking on how he's sure of him self about this, and how he pretty much never bullshits and is actually almost always right(in the argument between you too, he blamed a whole lot, and you agreed and admitted a whole lot), what exactly are your reasons to doubt him?

 

[Brother None]

He stated quite bluntly in his quotes that the game will be exactly Obivion with guns.

What does that even mean? He's talking about design directions and philosophies, not anything "solid", and VDweller did that even less, and always sounded even more unsure. That's what I mean with "vague".

He described the battle system to quite a specific extent, stated that the dialogue trees will be an extra, and.. blabla, no reason to put what he said in other words. Bottom line, his description draws the game to pretty much one option, and looking on how he's sure of him self about this, and how he pretty much never bullshits and is actually almost always right(in the argument between you too, he blamed a whole lot, and you agreed and admitted a whole lot), what exactly are your reasons to doubt him?

Almost always right? Are you serious? He has bullied a lot of people in a lot of directions, but how is he "right" in the recent events with NMA? Sure, I made some mistakes, that doesn't make him right, keep the two things seperate.

I won't go indepth into my reasons not to trust him blindly. It's a moot point by now because it should start being known rather than surmised soon enough. If he's then proved right, I apologise beforehand. If not? Told you so.

 

[taxacaria]

On the other hand, Rosh might have done a lot of hand waiving, but he didn't explain how exactly you could have done the "digging" and made some influence on the devs at bethsoft.

That's exactly the point. The FO3 situation is very different from the FOT situation - Bethesda has the great Oblivion with big sales and stupid content as an example for market success. There is no need to change this business policy. Dev's honour ? First that isn't a dev's decision any more, and second no dev would quit his job because Beth is forcing him to produce same mainstream craps as Oblivion is.
So the "possible big influence" exists in the heads of certain people only.
Personal differences between Rosh and certain other NMA people have lead to a not objective discussion sometimes - but his quotes on Fallout 3 "in a nutshell" are surely no fantasies.

 

[sanyok21]

Alright Kharn, suppose your "Told you so" scenario will turn out. It would mean that Rosh simply lied about the sources leakage, right? Does Rosh have any reason to lie, do you know of any motive for him to do that?

 

[Brother None]

Alright Kharn, suppose your "Told you so" scenario will turn out. It would mean that Rosh simply lied about the sources leakage, right? Does Rosh have any reason to lie, do you know of any motive for him to do that?

I won't go indepth into my reasons not to trust him blindly.

Bethesda has the great Oblivion with big sales and stupid content as an example for market success.

So you're saying that a company with a model for market success can not have a game fail?