RPGs for the stupid

[greatatlantic]

Torment is technically D&D as well... It managed to rise far above.

To be honest, the first couple of hours I spent playing Torment I didn't even realize it was DnD. By the time I got towards the end, I had completely forgotten that it was DnD. Anyways, Torment is actually pretty weak on some Role Playing aspects. For example, it is relatively linear, and does not allow for totally unique character development. Its goodness really comes from the dialogue, which is very well developed. Furthermore, their is a very sizable part of the game you can miss in your first playthrough, such as the Mordon's Dugeon. Very few developers have the heart to put a lot of work into parts of the game that the player may never see, hence why Torment is simply good. Combat was sort of kind of terrible, though.

 

[Volourn]

PST is good; but is so overrated.

Anyone who bashes NWN and BG2 than praises games like TOEE, M&M, and other games don't know a good game when they see it.

LONG LIVE NWN!

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Anyone who bashes NWN and BG2 than praises games like TOEE, M&M, and other games don't know a good game when they see it.

LONG LIVE NWN!

I bash them all, but especially NWN. When buying a CRPG, I expect a good story, characters and setting, not a bloody toolkit. If I wanted to design my own game content, I'd just get a career in game development. NWN has its merits, but overall it doesn't deserve to be called an RPG, or a full-fledged game for that matter. It should have been marketed as a budget game, if you ask me.

 

[Volourn]

Nonsense. The OC itself is better than 90% of the trash that is thrown out including TOEE, GB games, POR2, and espicially the ultra trashy MW.

It very welld eserves to be called a RPG as it offers everything what a RPG should offer. Heck, with the OC alone, it's better than most games. Only exceptions are games like the FO series, Arcanum, KOTOR series (barely), JE, Ultima series, and maybe BG2. Plus, maybe some lesser known games as well.

The OC offers 40-80 hours of gameplay, with multiple ways to complete quests, a solid story (and, don't you dare trash it then praise to high heaven TOEE, or FO's stories in the next breath as it would be silly), and so many ways to create your character that anyone whining about variety or chocie is plainly retarded.

 

[Roshambo]

Nonsense. The OC itself is better than 90% of the trash that is thrown out including TOEE, GB games, POR2, and espicially the ultra trashy MW.

I might believe that it is 90% better than most of the trash BioWare shovels out, but by far it isn't that noteworthy to games that actually had talent and purpose put behind them.

It very welld eserves to be called a RPG as it offers everything what a RPG should offer. Heck, with the OC alone, it's better than most games.

Sorry, I've played it before. It was called Darkstone. It, too, was great at stashing magical swords worth thousands in a barrel next to a starving farmer/bum/where anyone could take it. Good setting construction at its best, compliments from "Teh Mastards of Innovashun!" at BioWare. Chances are, it was Excuse Boy's mistake, or he was too busy writing up excuses why in-depth design isn't good for whorish developers and therefore couldn't go back and double-check his "work".

Only exceptions are games like the FO series, Arcanum, KOTOR series (barely), JE, Ultima series, and maybe BG2. Plus, maybe some lesser known games as well.

Albion, Magic Candle, Darklands, and many more others that would indeed be lesser known to one of your cluelessness. I love it whern people make these assertions, because they are hinging it upon their own knowledge or the lack thereof, to an audience that is obviously far more knowledgeable to material that existed a few years into the past. Sorry, but the majority of recent CRPgs haven't been particularly noteworthy at all except in terms of whoring features, when comparing them to games that were created for the purpose of creating a game.

The garbage of NWN's OC was comparatively ass to them, don't even presume to make it otherwise based upon your ignorance.

The OC offers 40-80 hours of gameplay, with multiple ways to complete quests,

Pass-Fail, picking sides, a second Fed-Ex destination all don't really qualify as multiple ways, and I refuse to equate mind-numbing combat ad nauseum as "gameplay" when that is basically all that exists to the game, relying on those who paid to develop on the crap "SDK" to give it life.

a solid story (and, don't you dare trash it then praise to high heaven TOEE, or FO's stories in the next breath as it would be silly)

I really don't consider a corny, predictable story as "solid". In fact, it's standard BioWare cliché. Oh, except that it really doesn't track the quest states from chapter to chapter. I think that is precisely the major reason why it is considerd to be unmitigated shit on its own.

so many ways to create your character that anyone whining about variety or chocie is plainly retarded.

All of which are almost wholy irrelevant to the gameplay of the actual game, since after all, 99% of what could be considered "role-playing" in most Infinity Engine/BioWare games would be comprised of character creation. Maybe with one major branching later on, the rest are vetoed as being "exponentially more work" for BioWare.

So what is supposed to make it a CRPG instead of a poorly-labeled action/adventure dungeon crawler module?

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Nonsense. The OC itself is better than 90% of the trash that is thrown out including TOEE, GB games, POR2, and espicially the ultra trashy MW.

When compared with some of the worst CRPGs released in the past five years, then yes, NWN shines. However, I prefer to compare it to good games, and that's when NWN's glory suddenly and irreversibly pales.

It very welld eserves to be called a RPG as it offers everything what a RPG should offer. Heck, with the OC alone, it's better than most games. Only exceptions are games like the FO series, Arcanum, KOTOR series (barely), JE, Ultima series, and maybe BG2. Plus, maybe some lesser known games as well.

The OC offers 40-80 hours of gameplay, with multiple ways to complete quests, a solid story (and, don't you dare trash it then praise to high heaven TOEE, or FO's stories in the next breath as it would be silly), and so many ways to create your character that anyone whining about variety or chocie is plainly retarded.

Alright, let's debunk this one thing at a time, shall we?

1. Out of those 80 hours, 79.5 is Diablo-style hacking through hordes of clichée monsters in a flat and unimaginative area textured with one of four different tilesets. Strange, I can remember distinguishing features of each and every area in PS:T, Fallout and Gothic II, but all of NWN's areas kind of blend into one; not at all surprising, since the only difference is usually arrangement of corridors and the fact that in one area you fight a hundred skeletons while in the other you fight a hundred skeleton warriors. Wow, the diversity! *gasp*

2. "Multiple ways to complete quests" is, as in all BioWare games, just a meaningless phrase that in no way reflects true state of things. It really means "two ways to complete quests", which really means "two ways to complete quests, where the second way amounts to being an asshole in the final conversation and killing the NPC instead of helping him". I would hardly call that a branching quest, especially since I can script the same thing in about five minutes.

3. Solid story? *has a laughing fit* Yeah, if you take away the fact that it's about a bunch of lizards waking up from a millennia-old slumber in order to take over the world, that it is told in such an amateurish and predictable manner that it makes the new Star Wars trilogy appear exciting, that it is accompanied by the most superficial characterization in the history of gaming, that it is carried by four bland and laughably weak main enemies and that it features a grand total of two plot twists, both of which so absurdly predictable that only six-year-old morons failed to see them coming as early as the Prologue, then yes, NWN story is pretty "solid". But damn, I really don't see how anyone can even think of mentioning it in the same sentence as the Fallout story, since the latter is brilliantly written, brilliantly told, brilliantly fitting the setting and featuring the most brilliant enemies since Darth Vader and that liquid dude in Terminator 2.

4. Sorry, but I don't judge a CRPG by the amount of choice given at the character creation screen. What counts is the diversity of experiences you can have with different character builds, and that's where NWN fails miserably, since the roleplaying aspect ends the moment you click the Accept button. For comparison, Gothic II had no character creation, yet it was much more open-ended than NWN could ever hope to be.

 

[Volourn]

"When compared with some of the worst CRPGs released in the past five years, then yes, NWN shines. However, I prefer to compare it to good games, and that's when NWN's glory suddenly and irreversibly pales."

Compared to RPGs in any year. I'm including series like M&M, Wizardry, and the like. Contrary to what the Ignoramous above you thinks; I've been playing rpgs for nearly 2 decades. Most old school RPGs were basically dungeon crawls. Literally at that - as in delve deeper into the dungeon. There are, of course, exceptions like Ultima which still to this day is simply awesome in its own right.


"1. Out of those 80 hours, 79.5 is Diablo-style hacking through hordes of clichée monsters in a flat and unimaginative area textured with one of four different tilesets. Strange, I can remember distinguishing features of each and every area in PS:T, Fallout and Gothic II, but all of NWN's areas kind of blend into one; not at all surprising, since the only difference is usually arrangement of corridors and the fact that in one area you fight a hundred skeletons while in the other you fight a hundred skeleton warriors. Wow, the diversity! *gasp*"

Eh. Out of this three, only PST had much variance in their areas. As much as I love FO; there really wans't much differnce in the areas. And, oh, NWN's areas had huge variety and only someone who has to lie to make his point would suggest such garbage as '100 skeles vs. 100 skele warriors' to try to make a point. Not once, not ever, do you face that many enemies at once in NWN. Not even close. As for variety in monsters, the OC used over a hundred. And, sure, while many are 'cliche' like goblins and orcs; are not so cliche like a minogon, gray render, or battle devourer. As for variety areas, from the various forests (and, yes, if you would actually be honest the forests were different), caves, dungeons, cities, and towns.


"2. "Multiple ways to complete quests" is, as in all BioWare games, just a meaningless phrase that in no way reflects true state of things. It really means "two ways to complete quests", which really means "two ways to complete quests, where the second way amounts to being an asshole in the final conversation and killing the NPC instead of helping him". I would hardly call that a branching quest, especially since I can script the same thing in about five minutes."

I simply don't believe you. On top of that, many of the NWN quests do have multiple ways to solve them. And, more often than not these multiple ways to complete said quests don'y involve killing the quest giver at all. Hell, the trial in ch3 had upwards of 5 or 6 different ways to solve the quest and not one of them involved combat. Go figure.


"3. Solid story? *has a laughing fit* Yeah, if you take away the fact that it's about a bunch of lizards waking up from a millennia-old slumber in order to take over the world"

Fantasy game with a fantasy story. Go figure. As for plot twists, I do admit one of them was too obvious and poorly done. And, I know you lie about the second plot twist. There is no way you figure out that Aribeth would betray you in the prologue so stop the bogus. As for there being 'only' two plot twsts? That's funny. Last I checked, neitehr FO had what I'd call a plot twist unless you think 'OMG MUtant army wants to conquer the world' as a plot twist? LOL


"4. Sorry, but I don't judge a CRPG by the amount of choice given at the character creation screen. What counts is the diversity of experiences you can have with different character builds, and that's where NWN fails miserably, since the roleplaying aspect ends the moment you click the Accept button. For comparison, Gothic II had no character creation, yet it was much more open-ended than NWN could ever hope to be."

Wwrong, again. then again you are supporting G2 which proves your lack of taste. The only thing G2 had was solid graphics and good atmopshere. Everything else was average or worse.

 

[Silencer]

The only thing G2 had was solid graphics and good atmopshere.

What more does a player want?

Also,

PEACE!

 

[Volourn]

"What more does a player want?"

Gameplay, good control, worthwhile character creation, a story that draws you in, etc.


"PEACE!"

There is no peace. There is just calm before the storm.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Eh. Out of this three, only PST had much variance in their areas. As much as I love FO; there really wans't much differnce in the areas. And, oh, NWN's areas had huge variety and only someone who has to lie to make his point would suggest such garbage as '100 skeles vs. 100 skele warriors' to try to make a point. Not once, not ever, do you face that many enemies at once in NWN. Not even close.

It's called hyperbole, bitch. All areas are crawling with monsters. I never bothered to count the exact number of adversaries per area, but it's beyond dispute that there are almost always dozens of them. And unless you have a godlike stealth skill, you are pretty much forced to fight them. Unlike Fallout, where it is possible to beat the game without actually fighting anyone.

As for variety in monsters, the OC used over a hundred. And, sure, while many are 'cliche' like goblins and orcs; are not so cliche like a minogon, gray render, or battle devourer. As for variety areas, from the various forests (and, yes, if you would actually be honest the forests were different), caves, dungeons, cities, and towns.

Forests are nothing but dungeons with tree texture on the walls. NWN probably has the worst looking forests I have ever seen. I didn't know all trees in Faerun came in blocky, compact formations.

I simply don't believe you. On top of that, many of the NWN quests do have multiple ways to solve them. And, more often than not these multiple ways to complete said quests don'y involve killing the quest giver at all.

Insert threatening/insulting/befriending/robbing/masturbating-in-front-of instead of 'killing'. Semantics are irrelevant. Fact remains that NWN's 'multiple solutions' scripting was probably done during someone's coffee break.

Hell, the trial in ch3 had upwards of 5 or 6 different ways to solve the quest and not one of them involved combat. Go figure.

That is an exception that confirms the rule.

Fantasy game with a fantasy story. Go figure.

Fantasy stories aren't generic and unimaginative by definition. Though I must admit, most of R.A. Salvatore's work is way superior to NWN's storyline. I wonder whose idea it was to take a stupid lizardfolk and call them 'the Creators'. The only thing more idiotic than having a ruthless lizard-like race called 'Creators' as baddies in Neverwinter Nights is having that very same race recur as baddies (though secondary) in Neverwinter Nights 2: Knights of the Old Republic. It's like David Gaider has a reptile fixation or something. These repressed sodomy-lovers are the worst.

As for plot twists, I do admit one of them was too obvious and poorly done. And, I know you lie about the second plot twist. There is no way you figure out that Aribeth would betray you in the prologue so stop the bogus.

Again, it's called hyperbole. To me it was obvious that Aribeth would end up betraying Neverwinter when she started whining about her nightmares early in Chapter 2. Not much of a loss, I might add. Her lines of dialogue are about as profound as some angsty kid's high school amateur drama class writing, and her voice actress's acting career probably consists of taking orders in local Burger King.

As for there being 'only' two plot twsts? That's funny. Last I checked, neitehr FO had what I'd call a plot twist unless you think 'OMG MUtant army wants to conquer the world' as a plot twist? LOL

Fallout's story is awesome enough as it is and doesn't need unlikely yet predictable plot twists to make it interesting (though certain revelations in the game are indeed what I would qualify as well-executed plot twists).

Wwrong, again. then again you are supporting G2 which proves your lack of taste. The only thing G2 had was solid graphics and good atmopshere. Everything else was average or worse.

Bwahahaha, I never thought I would see the day a BioWare fan would accuse me of lacking taste. And Gothic series is probably the best CRPG to come out of Europe since Realms of Arkania. It's funny how a small, little-known team on budget manages to churn out games that top best of what BioWare has to offer in terms of game mechanics, interactivity, setting, world design and just about ever y aspect that matters. Somehow I don't feel all too deprived by absence of character creation from Gothic, when all those shiny buttons and stats in NWN can't help the fact that the game has maybe 2% of Gothic's open-ended nature and roleplaying depth.

 

[Volourn]

"It's called hyperbole, bitch. All areas are crawling with monsters. I never bothered to count the exact number of adversaries per area, but it's beyond dispute that there are almost always dozens of them."

False. It is not too often that youa re fighting dozens of creatures at onc ein the OC. How can I take you seriosuly when every second complaint that comes out of your posts is hyperbole? Easy. I can't.

" And unless you have a godlike stealth skill, you are pretty much forced to fight them. Unlike Fallout, where it is possible to beat the game without actually fighting anyone."

You only need decent stealth skill to do it. And, intelligence - as in - unlike FO - don't sneak right in front of them though soemtimes you can get away with it in NWN. Of course, I'm not gonna argue that NWN does the avoidance of combat better than FO. Then again, I never did. The fact, you feel the need to try to compare the OC to FO to show its weaknesses just make sit easier for me to pve my point that NWN does this better than most RPGs.


"Forests are nothing but dungeons with tree texture on the walls. NWN probably has the worst looking forests I have ever seen. I didn't know all trees in Faerun came in blocky, compact formations."

No. That would be MW which has forest that are shit. Literally.


"Insert threatening/insulting/befriending/robbing/masturbating-in-front-of instead of 'killing'. Semantics are irrelevant. Fact remains that NWN's 'multiple solutions' scripting was probably done during someone's coffee break."

False.


"That is an exception that confirms the rule."

False. There seem to be lots of exceptions to the rule then.


"Fantasy stories aren't generic and unimaginative by definition. Though I must admit, most of R.A. Salvatore's work is way superior to NWN's storyline. I wonder whose idea it was to take a stupid lizardfolk and call them 'the Creators'."

The ones who invented the Realms in the first palce, created the lizards. Not BIO.


"The only thing more idiotic than having a ruthless lizard-like race called 'Creators' as baddies in Neverwinter Nights is having that very same race recur as baddies (though secondary) in Neverwinter Nights 2: Knights of the Old Republic."

You obviously don't have much experienc ein RPGs, and their stupid stories.

"It's like David Gaider has a reptile fixation or something. These repressed sodomy-lovers are the worst."

You do realize that Gaider is not always Lead Writer so to blame him for everything is just plain stupid, right? And, it sure beats the Troikian writer who is responsible for trashing a beloved pnp module.


"Again, it's called hyperbole. To me it was obvious that Aribeth would end up betraying Neverwinter when she started whining about her nightmares early in Chapter 2. Not much of a loss, I might add. Her lines of dialogue are about as profound as some angsty kid's high school amateur drama class writing, and her voice actress's acting career probably consists of taking orders in local Burger King."

Ahh.. The truth come sout. You figured it out in ch2... the same chapter she betrays the PC. Yet before you said the prologue. If you are gonna lie aka use hyperbole; don't be so obvious. He rline sof dialogue sure beats most games. That's for sure. Definitely better than anything in G2 with is just plain forgettable.


"best CRPG to come out of Europe"

That says it all. Europe isn't really all that well known for their RPGs. That said, G3 looks like it might actually be good.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

False. It is not too often that youa re fighting dozens of creatures at onc ein the OC. How can I take you seriosuly when every second complaint that comes out of your posts is hyperbole? Easy. I can't.

You are supposed to be a smart kid and therefore able to discern a simple figure of speech. I shouldn't have to draw everything in crayon for you.

You only need decent stealth skill to do it. And, intelligence - as in - unlike FO - don't sneak right in front of them though soemtimes you can get away with it in NWN. Of course, I'm not gonna argue that NWN does the avoidance of combat better than FO. Then again, I never did. The fact, you feel the need to try to compare the OC to FO to show its weaknesses just make sit easier for me to pve my point that NWN does this better than most RPGs.

Let me restate it again: I only compare NWN to good RPGs, not bad ones. Thanks for implicitly proving my point that NWN is not a good RPG.

No. That would be MW which has forest that are shit. Literally.

Again you drag mediocre RPGs into the discussion. I prefer comparison with Gothic's forests, which look perfect. Unlike NWN's, which are, as I said, nothing but dungeons with tree texture. Even Diablo II had more realistic forests, which says a lot about the amount of effort that went into area diversity in NWN.

False.

Do you have to resort to trolling every time you can't come up with a reasonable response to someone's argument? You are like CCR of roleplaying games.

False. There seem to be lots of exceptions to the rule then.

Strange, I don't recall that many. You also fail to address an even more important point, which is: how exactly do different choices made in quests affect the game world and plot development? In Fallout I seem to recall that various actions of the player had deep consequences on the community and the way it treats the player. Furthermore, particularly important actions affected the entire world, and reputation stemming from those actions preceded the player character as he traveled to neighbouring communities. In NWN, the player character's disposition, alignment and affiliations had no effect on the game flow whatsoever. The story was always the same and the world always reacted to you in the identical manner regardless of your deeds or misdeeds. NWN's campaign had no open-endedness, no non-linearity and no replayability, which are all key characteristics of a CRPG. Simply put, NWN was a complete and utter failure in terms of roleplaying.

The ones who invented the Realms in the first palce, created the lizards. Not BIO.

That makes it great then.

You obviously don't have much experienc ein RPGs, and their stupid stories.

No. Again, I prefer to play good RPGs.

You do realize that Gaider is not always Lead Writer so to blame him for everything is just plain stupid, right? And, it sure beats the Troikian writer who is responsible for trashing a beloved pnp module.

You are indeed right that Gaider wasn't the lead designer for NWN, though he was in the core design team.

Ahh.. The truth come sout. You figured it out in ch2... the same chapter she betrays the PC. Yet before you said the prologue. If you are gonna lie aka use hyperbole; don't be so obvious.

Since Chapter 2 has two parts that make about 50% of the game, I don't see how it isn't a failure on storywriters' part that her betrayal is poorly introduced and obvious early in Chapter 2.

He rline sof dialogue sure beats most games. That's for sure. Definitely better than anything in G2 with is just plain forgettable.

There you go again with "most games". Most games != great games. And yet you insist on shoving NWN into the same league with the Fallout series, Arcanum and PS:T, which are, indeed, great games. But surely even an aesthetically challenged person like you can plainly see that dialogues in Fallout games, Arcanum and PS:T (especially PS:T) are simply marvelous and make NWN's amateurish pseudodramatic blather seem laughable in comparison.

That says it all. Europe isn't really all that well known for their RPGs. That said, G3 looks like it might actually be good.

Yet even with such weak production European developers manage to easily top everything BioWare ever made. Ironic, isn't it?

 

[Per]

So, when is this going to be split in one "funny RPG diagrams" thread and one "debate on RPG quality" thread? It's obvious that a lot of the commentary was caused by a misunderstanding of the words "for the stupid" in the title.

 

[Volourn]

"You are supposed to be a smart kid and therefore able to discern a simple figure of speech."

Huh? Who said I was smart? Afterall, I like Bioware. That automatically makes me stupid right. Afterall, this thread is 'RPGs for the stupid' which you think NWN is . I like NWN, therefore I am stupid accoridng to you.

"I shouldn't have to draw everything in crayon for you."

Hyperbole again. I say anyone who uses hyperbole does so because they'd rather make up things then actually debate the issues. That's ok though as I use hyperbole once, and awhile. Then again, pretty much every point you've made in this discussion has been hyperbole.


"Let me restate it again: I only compare NWN to good RPGs, not bad ones. Thanks for implicitly proving my point that NWN is not a good RPG."

Really? Then why comapre it to G2 which is NOT a good RPG. You lose.


"Again you drag mediocre RPGs into the discussion. I prefer comparison with Gothic's forests, which look perfect. Unlike NWN's, which are, as I said, nothing but dungeons with tree texture. Even Diablo II had more realistic forests, which says a lot about the amount of effort that went into area diversity in NWN."

There's lots of area diversity in NWN. Only someone who hasn't played NWN would suggest otherwise.


"Do you have to resort to trolling every time you can't come up with a reasonable response to someone's argument? You are like CCR of roleplaying games."

Ahh.. The accusation of trolling comes when someone has the gall to defend a game that sin't popular here. How is it trolling to call someone out on a lie? You suggested soemthing that was blatantly false, and I called you out on it. That's not trolling whether you like it or not.



"Strange, I don't recall that many."

To just name a few others, there's how you deal with the wizard who kidnapped the dryad, how you deal with the cleric who has a missing brother, how you deal with the haunted castle, how you deal with the mother's plight with her dead children. All multiple ways to deal with the game.

You also fail to address an even more important point, which is: how exactly do different choices made in quests affect the game world and plot development?"

I didn't failt o do anything. The issue was that you lied and said that the OC doesn't provide multiple ways to complete quests aside from killing x instead of y. I proved you wrong so now you are attempting to change the subject. Mot exactly subtle.

" In Fallout I seem to recall that various actions of the player had deep consequences on the community and the way it treats the player. Furthermore, particularly important actions affected the entire world, and reputation stemming from those actions preceded the player character as he traveled to neighbouring communities. In NWN, the player character's disposition, alignment and affiliations had no effect on the game flow whatsoever. The story was always the same and the world always reacted to you in the identical manner regardless of your deeds or misdeeds. NWN's campaign had no open-endedness, no non-linearity and no replayability, which are all key characteristics of a CRPG. Simply put, NWN was a complete and utter failure in terms of roleplaying."

More hyperbole. First off, since I believe that FO is better at role-playing than the OC or heck better than 99% of the game; I'm not gonna claim that OC does it better. That said, to say that 'NWN was a complete and utter failure in terms of role-playing is pure bullshit and more hyperbole. All the situations I discussed above do chnage the game world. They may not have as far reaching effects on the main story as a decision might have in FO; but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Most decisions you make NWN do effect how effect how others perceive you. One example of this is you actually can redeem Aribeth or choose not do, or even fail to d so and it effects how she (and others) perceive you. The Lord's reaction to you later on when you suggest that she should be aprdoned for her 'betrayal' says it all. Remember, that just because a game isn't as good as FO (or best game x) does not mean its a total failure. Peon.


"No. Again, I prefer to play good RPGs."

That explains why you played NWN. Idiot. You made that way too easy.


"You are indeed right that Gaider wasn't the lead designer for NWN, though he was in the core design team."

Yet you blame him by name; but don't mention him. That's right. You make him a scapegoat for others' choices just because he happens to post the most. Haha. You do realzie that the BIO Doctors are most responsible for Bioware's ultimate decisions yet they post extremely rarely so you are gonna blame DG for their decisions just because he posts more? Give me a break.


"There you go again with "most games". Most games != great games. And yet you insist on shoving NWN into the same league with the Fallout series, Arcanum and PS:T, which are, indeed, great games. But surely even an aesthetically challenged person like you can plainly see that dialogues in Fallout games, Arcanum and PS:T (especially PS:T) are simply marvelous and make NWN's amateurish pseudodramatic blather seem laughable in comparison."

You overrate PST. And, while, I enjoy Arcanum it's nowhere near FO in terms of quality. In fact, FO is the only game out of the three that I would eaisly rate higher than the OC (though the entire package of NWN offers more). Arcanum is slightly better, and overall, PST is about on par with the OC. Afterall, its amnesia storyline is way more cliche and overdone than the OC' ancient race one is.


"Yet even with such weak production European developers manage to easily top everything BioWare ever made. Ironic, isn't it?"

How can a falsehood be ironic. European developers haven't even come close to topping or equallizing BIo's efforts. Or for that matter, most NA or Japanese efforts. There ar eprobably one, or two exemptions though. There always are.


Anyways, since I'm just a troll, I'll stop 'trolling' and avoid trolling a mod such as yourself.

Final Conclusion: NWN sucks, and I'm stupid for likeing it.

P.S. Geez. I thought Rosh was out there; but at least he had the brains to know the difference between disagreement and trolling. I disagree with you on NWN. That doens't make me a troll.

Enjoy your 'VICTORY'.

 

[Roshambo]

Volourn, you're really not one in a position to berate about hyperbole, since that is basically all you have done about NWN in this thread. Speaking of hyperbole, for that matter, I do include your ignorance of Euro developers. I could take the time to list many of the developers (most French and German), including Blue Byte, Thallus, Beyond, and more, but I have a feeling it would just be wasted time. Hell, even the original Digital Devil Monogatari: Megami Tensei had a better "good or evil" decision role-playing before BioWare decided to feebly use the same for KOTOR.

Even Delphine did the whole action-adventure dungeon crawler stint before BioWare looking at how to rip off Fallout, but wasn't pretentious enough so that some people got mistaken as to how much actual "role-playing" would be involved in the game. Oh, and it didn't have to rely on the construction kit to prop up the otherwise limp main campaign.

Since NWN doesn't really track what you've done from chapter to chapter, then it really doesn't have much to call it a "role-playing game", unless you go by the BioWare definition of "it has stats and you kill shit - Unimaginative Dialog Error #302: Goodbye, Information, Combat?"

It very welld eserves to be called a RPG as it offers everything what a RPG should offer.

Except, coincidentally, role-playing. The same element missing from all of their action/adventure dungeon crawlers.

This was even explained to you in your similarly futile verbal fellating of NWN in trolls over at RPGCodex, and frankly, it's old hat. You should also know by now why David Gaider is held to be an object of ridicule, especially after the "exponential" bullshit that painted it clear what kind of development attitude he believes to be correct. Then add in a few other of his similarly boneheaded stunts. Nobody ordered him to post those.

P.S. Geez. I thought Rosh was out there; but at least he had the brains to know the difference between disagreement and trolling. I disagree with you on NWN. That doens't make me a troll.

You're right, and you've gone clearly past "disagreement" a long time ago. In addition, your ignorance of Euro developers on top of this, especially in regards to the statements that you have made, only makes it sound like you're here to blather cluelessly or troll.

Either way, goodbye.

 

[Briosafreak]

About time

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Huh? Who said I was smart? Afterall, I like Bioware. That automatically makes me stupid right. Afterall, this thread is 'RPGs for the stupid' which you think NWN is . I like NWN, therefore I am stupid accoridng to you.

Congratulations on failing to understand the topic title.

Hyperbole again. I say anyone who uses hyperbole does so because they'd rather make up things then actually debate the issues. That's ok though as I use hyperbole once, and awhile. Then again, pretty much every point you've made in this discussion has been hyperbole.

At least I've made points.

Really? Then why comapre it to G2 which is NOT a good RPG. You lose.

Wrong. It's not a good RPG in your opinion. But I don't value opinions of a BioWare fan much, as you can guess.

There's lots of area diversity in NWN. Only someone who hasn't played NWN would suggest otherwise.

Seeing as I both finished the game and tried my hand at modding, I can confidently state that NWN doesn't have a lot of area diversity. (Hint: different tilesets != area diversity)

Ahh.. The accusation of trolling comes when someone has the gall to defend a game that sin't popular here. How is it trolling to call someone out on a lie? You suggested soemthing that was blatantly false, and I called you out on it. That's not trolling whether you like it or not.

No, the accusation comes when you call someone a liar without bothering to offer proof. That, my friend, is a much greater faux than using hyperboles.

To just name a few others, there's how you deal with the wizard who kidnapped the dryad, how you deal with the cleric who has a missing brother, how you deal with the haunted castle, how you deal with the mother's plight with her dead children. All multiple ways to deal with the game.

I never denied that most quests have two different ways of completing them. I stated that difference between various ways is trivial and took five minutes to script. That's a point you deliberately fail to address, probably because you know I am right.

I didn't failt o do anything. The issue was that you lied and said that the OC doesn't provide multiple ways to complete quests aside from killing x instead of y. I proved you wrong so now you are attempting to change the subject. Mot exactly subtle.

See, now you are lying. Read the previous paragraph.

More hyperbole. First off, since I believe that FO is better at role-playing than the OC or heck better than 99% of the game; I'm not gonna claim that OC does it better. That said, to say that 'NWN was a complete and utter failure in terms of role-playing is pure bullshit and more hyperbole. All the situations I discussed above do chnage the game world. They may not have as far reaching effects on the main story as a decision might have in FO; but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Most decisions you make NWN do effect how effect how others perceive you. One example of this is you actually can redeem Aribeth or choose not do, or even fail to d so and it effects how she (and others) perceive you. The Lord's reaction to you later on when you suggest that she should be aprdoned for her 'betrayal' says it all. Remember, that just because a game isn't as good as FO (or best game x) does not mean its a total failure. Peon.

So if you spare Aribeth, you get to visit her in prison and talk to her, and Lord Nasher gets a few extra lines of dialogue. Oh, the impact! I bet it took months to script all consequences of that action!

Pathetic. Just pathetic.

That explains why you played NWN. Idiot. You made that way too easy.

*sigh* Crayon time again:

1. It's a bit difficult for me to pass objective judgement on a game I haven't played. In other words, how would I know that NWN isn't a good CRPG without actually playing it.

2. You made a typical logical fallacy of drawing conclusions from insufficient premises. Just because I say NWN sucks as a CRPG doesn't mean I didn't enjoy it for it was - a fun, albeit repetitive hack 'n slash.

Yet you blame him by name; but don't mention him. That's right. You make him a scapegoat for others' choices just because he happens to post the most. Haha. You do realzie that the BIO Doctors are most responsible for Bioware's ultimate decisions yet they post extremely rarely so you are gonna blame DG for their decisions just because he posts more? Give me a break.

Don't fool yourself. Gaider may not make all the calls, but he stands behind BioWare's stupid design doctrine 100%. By publicly advocating it, he willingly offers himself as primary target for bashing, so I really don't care where his line in NWN credits is.

And what are you, his lawyer?

You overrate PST. And, while, I enjoy Arcanum it's nowhere near FO in terms of quality. In fact, FO is the only game out of the three that I would eaisly rate higher than the OC (though the entire package of NWN offers more). Arcanum is slightly better, and overall, PST is about on par with the OC. Afterall, its amnesia storyline is way more cliche and overdone than the OC' ancient race one is.

God, I should track you down and kill you for this. "Clichée and overdone"? PS:T's story is possibly the most original and brilliantly told story I have heard in any game, ever! What other story speaks of an immortal amnesiac who wakes up in a mortuary with nothing to guide him but a set of instructions carved into his skin and a sarcastic floating skull that seems to know more than it's telling, a disfigured wretch who seems to bring trouble and misery wherever he goes, yet manages to inspire loyalty, respect and love in hearts of all creatures he encounters, whose millennia-long unlife brought about world-shattering changes and left impact on lives of everyone, from common folk to immensely powerful creatures of the Abyss? What other story is introduced in manner that leaves you dazzled and told so perfectly that you simply cannot summon enough strength to click the Quit button until you finally find answers to all questions that torment you? What other story leaves such a deep and depressing emptiness once it is over that you want to take the game disc and copulate with it in order to crown the experience of witnessing one of the greatest tales ever told with an act of ultimate affection?

"Clichée and overdone" indeed. Methinks you confused PS:T with KotOR.

Anyways, since I'm just a troll, I'll stop 'trolling' and avoid trolling a mod such as yourself.

Final Conclusion: NWN sucks, and I'm stupid for likeing it.

Drop the victim act. In case it eluded your observant eye, I moderate the Order forum, not the General Gaming Discussion.

Geez. I thought Rosh was out there; but at least he had the brains to know the difference between disagreement and trolling. I disagree with you on NWN. That doens't make me a troll.

Nice job deliberately misinterpreting my words. I'm impressed by your ability to troll when talking about not trolling.

 

[Tagaziel]

Now that is a fun discussion to read

Seriously though, I agree with nearly everything said by Ratty.

Except for one thing. I actually liked KotOR as an RPG (ducks to avoid incoming gunfire).

[Please dont bag me for what I like. I am not a BioWare fan nor a troll]

 

[Roshambo]

So if you spare Aribeth, you get to visit her in prison and talk to her, and Lord Nasher gets a few extra lines of dialogue. Oh, the impact! I bet it took months to script all consequences of that action!

On a similar note of economy design work, for Deus Ex:

if ($Kills >=4) {"You did well." +4 Grenades}
else {"You killed people, bad you, no treat!"}

2. You made a typical logical fallacy of drawing conclusions from insufficient premises. Just because I say NWN sucks as a CRPG doesn't mean I didn't enjoy it for it was - a fun, albeit repetitive hack 'n slash.

A ShadowPaladin...err...Volourn specialty, by far.

Don't fool yourself. Gaider may not make all the calls, but he stands behind BioWare's stupid design doctrine 100%. By publicly advocating it, he willingly offers himself as primary target for bashing, so I really don't care where his line in NWN credits is.

As Minsc (vo'd by the legendary Jim Cummings) would say, "Squeaky wheel gets the kick!"

God, I should track you down and kill you for this. "Clichée and overdone"? PS:T's story is possibly the most original and brilliantly told story I have heard in any game, ever! What other story speaks of an immortal amnesiac who wakes up in a mortuary with nothing to guide him but a set of instructions carved into his skin and a sarcastic floating skull that seems to know more than it's telling, a disfigured wretch who seems to bring trouble and misery wherever he goes, yet manages to inspire loyalty, respect and love in hearts of all creatures he encounters, whose millennia-long unlife brought about world-shattering changes and left impact on lives of everyone, from common folk to immensely powerful creatures of the Abyss? What other story is introduced in manner that leaves you dazzled and told so perfectly that you simply cannot summon enough strength to click the Quit button until you finally find answers to all questions that torment you? What other story leaves such a deep and depressing emptiness once it is over that you want to take the game disc and copulate with it in order to crown the experience of witnessing one of the greatest tales ever told with an act of ultimate affection?

Imoen whined too much, so therefore that eloquent chap can have her to do with as he pleases. How I fucking YEARNED to have that option as an evil character, and wished that finally they would include the ah..."option" to be an evil character.

Fuck Jaheira's pain of losing her little Oompa-Loompa, I want that Imoen wench to know suffering and misery for the aural torture she has caused upon me. Put her in a Nerull-damned jar for all I care for the rest of the bullshit.

Damn, I just get different spells. Fuck me.

"Clichée and overdone" indeed. Methinks you confused PS:T with KotOR.

No, I really enjoy re-doing puzzles I learned in first grade classes. Fuck you! I also want BioWare to reinvent the Amulet of Yendor as well, as it's about the only thing left they haven't tried to disembowel for the masses!

And finally, words that sum up Volourn's existence:

Drop the victim act. In case it eluded your observant eye, I moderate the Order forum, not the General Gaming Discussion.

Observation has never been his strong suit, in particular when he makes the blanket statements and claims about a title that are founded wholly upon ignorance or a very selective personal sample.

Except for one thing. I actually liked KotOR as an RPG (ducks to avoid incoming gunfire).

[Please dont bag me for what I like. I am not a BioWare fan nor a troll]

Personal preferences are good and fine, we do not mind that you like games. Hell, someone could even like Daikatana for that matter. It still doesn't change the fact, despite several trolls otherwise on the PCGR.com forums, that Daikatana still is lacking several elements. KotOR is a decent title in certain respects, but it still is apparent that BioWare needs to learn how to make a CRPG with design that doesn't break down when the furniture polish fails to hold the furniture together. Multiple endings, crafted with care, is also something they need to work on.

It also looked like they were going to be doing something similar to Wizardry with the save imports for Baldur's Gate, but hey, endings haven't really mattered in most of BioWare's games, at least not to the point of feeling accomplishment for some of the dull stuff. It's either develop towards something that makes it seem worthwhile (i.e. not a Deus Ex branch at the end decision path), or come up with something other than a cliché big bad guy as an ending - complete with a linear epilogue or reward choice.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Except for one thing. I actually liked KotOR as an RPG (ducks to avoid incoming gunfire).

KotOR suffered from same design flaws as NWN, but it did have redeeming qualities, even in roleplaying field. I enjoyed the game a lot, which I can't say for any other BioWare game (though I should probably still give BG2 a chance).