RPGs for the stupid

[Brother None]

that liquid dude in Terminator 2.

T-1000

For comparison, Gothic II had no character creation, yet it was much more open-ended than NWN could ever hope to be.

Expanded character creation is a good way to pretend to be a CRPG without actually being one. The fact that Gothic never needed it shows how good a game it is, the fact that you could spend one hour on BG "rolling up a good character" before beginning the game shows what's wrong with it.

I always disliked rolling up characters. How do you balance the game if people can keep re-rolling? They'll just keep going until they get great scores, while newbs, who already have it tough, are stuck with crappy characters. But that's AD&D, ey?

Out of this three, only PST had much variance in their areas. As much as I love FO; there really wans't much differnce in the areas. And, oh, NWN's areas had huge variety and only someone who has to lie to make his point would suggest such garbage as '100 skeles vs. 100 skele warriors' to try to make a point. Not once, not ever, do you face that many enemies at once in NWN. Not even close. As for variety in monsters, the OC used over a hundred.

"Duhr, dah desert is just like dah vault, no difference at all"

And yeah, Ninfinity could never handle a hundred monsters at once.

Last I checked, neitehr FO had what I'd call a plot twist unless you think 'OMG MUtant army wants to conquer the world' as a plot twist?

Last I checked, the ending of Fallout was quite a big plot twist.

And Gothic series is probably the best CRPG to come out of Europe since Realms of Arkania.

Realms of Arkania having the obvious advantage of being set in the Das Schwarze Auge world, since DSA, while having a bad rep for being too simply, is a very expansive CRPG known for bringing very balanced gameplay. Well-balanced is its name.

Y'know Carsten at some point was actually working on Realms of Arkania 4? Though it wouldn't have been 4, really, since the first three were a closed trilogy. Since they re-translated DSA into "The Dark Eye" for American use, they should drop the RoA label and make a TDE game. Again. Love that setting

 

[Ratty Sr.]

I always disliked rolling up characters. How do you balance the game if people can keep re-rolling? They'll just keep going until they get great scores, while newbs, who already have it tough, are stuck with crappy characters. But that's AD&D, ey?

In NWN there were actually no dice rolls at character creation. But I agree, the system is stupid. Daggerfall also had rolling for stats (I'm honestly not sure about Arena, Morrowind and Battlespire), and it was a damn waste of time. You could even save one roll before rerolling, so whenever I got a good roll in stats I wanted, I would write everything down on a piece of paper, save it, and keep rerolling until I got a better score. Eventually I would end up with a "maxed out" character. I'm a nerd, I know.

Duhr, dah desert is just like dah vault, no difference at all

It's not so much about variance in landscape, but attention that is given to each individual area. One can see that each area in Fallout and especially Torment was crafted with care, while in NWN every area looks like it was random generated, and the only difference between a forest and a cavern or a forest and a dungeon is in textures.

And yeah, Ninfinity could never handle a hundred monsters at once.

...and neither can Aurora. Though Aurora has even greater difficulties with smoke and fog. My old GeForce Ti4600 couldn't handle the Kashyyyk fog in KotOR, so running around Shadowlands was a nightmare.

 

[Roshambo]

It's not so much about variance in landscape, but attention that is given to each individual area. One can see that each area in Fallout and especially Torment was crafted with care, while in NWN every area looks like it was random generated, and the only difference between a forest and a cavern or a forest and a dungeon is in textures.

Hey, at least that is an improvement, if you could call it such. At first, all BioWare would use is a huge ass and irrelevant bitmap to play "hunt the pixel" upon. I know it must have come as a challenge to actually have to design maps, so at least they did try.

(*snicker* Yeah, right.)

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Hey, who unstickied this thread? It was stickied for educational reasons, you fascists! Sticky it again right now!

Um... please?

 

[Per]

B& for gravedigging.

Add a few new diagrams or let it rest.

 

[Rev. Layle]

ok... new diagram:

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Heheheh, not bad, not bad at all.

 

[Lord 342]

Back to what made this thread great.

This is strong in Baldur's Gate II but could pretty much apply to many CRPGs I've played.

I mean it opens with a segment so boring that a mod was made to take it out, and then you are given free reign for a long time. As you go through the chapters, the locales get smaller and smaller, with less to do in each. original NWN was like this as well.

Two things revolutionized Fallout/2 in a way. The setting was so different that it could write its own rules and would not be subject to any kind of writing (or other) cliches as are so many Fantasy RPGs. The second way was the endings. While you basically did the same thing in Fallout, the localized endings made it out to be different. There was no set path so if you took your time you could wander around for years. This triumph was also its downfall; if you knew where to look you could win in about 20 minutes.

 

[Per]

As you go through the chapters, the locales get smaller and smaller, with less to do in each. original NWN was like this as well.

Dramatic focus?

As for taking out the starting area, I don't see why anyone would want to do that. It's a part of the game. In it you look, talk and kill stuff, which is what happens in the rest of the game. Even if you start over as soon as you reach the end, it's still been a great while since you played the intro, unless you play the game way too much. It makes about as much sense as taking out the end battle, which is also mandatory and happens once per game, or Spellhold, which is mandatory and...

 

[Lord 342]

I don't disagree with you, Per; the people who skip Jon Irenicus' dungeon are similar to the people who run throught the temple of trials. I for one always play it because I feel the same way about it that you do the temple of trials. It gets old if you play it a lot, but it is still an area of the game. I did just think another funny graph was in order, and it helped with the frustration I experience playing BGII and NWN and going through a particular dialog and all of a sudden, boom; I'm in a new chapter and I've left a whole bunch of lose ends I can't tie up. At least BGII gave you the chance to finish business on the mainland.

 

[greatatlantic]

Here is my humble contribution. I always thought the three different chapters were pretty disjointed, as my diagram clearly shows. That, and there were some veiled attempts to... well see for yourself.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Neverwinter Nights, much like both Baldur's Gate games, is like an incredibly long and boring train ride. If you managed to replay this game, hats down to you. Maybe later you can show me your world's largest dental floss collection.

I loved Baldur's 2 and played it 10 times all the way through. It's been almost a year since you initial post, so how about i show you my collection now ?

 

[Elissar]

linkorstfu

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Link. :moon:

 

[Per]

Neverwinter Nights, much like both Baldur's Gate games, is like an incredibly long and boring train ride. If you managed to replay this game, hats down to you. Maybe later you can show me your world's largest dental floss collection.

I loved Baldur's 2 and played it 10 times all the way through. It's been almost a year since you initial post, so how about i show you my collection now ?

Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate 2 are two different games?

 

[DirtyDreamDesigner]

Neverwinter Nights, much like both Baldur's Gate games, is like an incredibly long and boring train ride. If you managed to replay this game, hats down to you. Maybe later you can show me your world's largest dental floss collection.

I loved Baldur's 2 and played it 10 times all the way through. It's been almost a year since you initial post, so how about i show you my collection now ?

Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate 2 are two different games?

Nah. A shorter remake. Without the cerebral parts.

 

[Lord 342]

True. NWN OC played like a pick-up game of D&D where the GM kept making crap up to keep up with the players... Words of power, Creator Race, my ass. Aribeth was the only compelling character because she pretty much *was* the only character, everyone else was just an "NPC" if you get my drift.

I actaully like Hordes of the Underdark. It had a few little places in it that sparked of Fallout, but they were too few. NWN may have been the best RPG made in years, but comparing it to Fallout is like saying that the Impala SS is the best Chevrolet and then comparing it to a Cadillac CTS-V. They're in different leagues altogether.

 

[Roshambo]

Exactly. It doesn't mean that NWN or KoTOR are good when called the best game of the year, it just shows how far the industry has gone to shit when garbage like NWN and KoTOR gets called innovative and put to the same level as games given a hell of a lot more love.

 

[Lord 342]

I don't exactly despise all the newer games, but the comparrison is truly offensive even if the newer games are OK.

Anyway Rosh, we all know what you hate, but I'd love to know what else besides Fallout and Fallout 2 you really like? Is there anything else you'd put your stamp of approval on? I'm very curious about this since you have such high standards. (this is not personal criticism; this is a genuine question).

 

[Roshambo]

In no particular order:

Wasteland (Corny humor in a land where death is cheap and the three-tittied women are cheaper. An amazing combat system that involved multiple parties, that could have been a great influence upon consoles if it were converted, and it was a good example of phase-based combat all around the market as it was one of the few "Wizardry-types" that considered range in combat.)
Wizardry (Effects of how you finish one game is reflected in another.)
Might and Magic (Was like a budget version of Wizardry, but on LSD but some decent writing, that eventually died when it substituted what little imaginative writing it once had with trend-chasing moronic crap.)
Ultima (Really, the role-playing quality in these games is quite well done for the time in which they came and progressed in, and frankly are what could be considered to be the core of the CRPG genre.)
Albion (Sci-fi game with excellent music, turn-based combat, an outstanding speech system akin to Fallout's, and a fairly unique setting. Perhaps the best example of a mainstream sci-fi title in the CRPG genre.)
Darklands (One of the best open-ended games, but it is hard for many to get into at first.)
Exile series (The work of Jeff Vogel, a friend of mine since he created the Scorched Earth Party. Excellent return to playing in the style of Gold and Silver Box, but with today's technology and CRPG standards.)
Avernum series (The re-make of the Exile series, but given nth more depth. It is quite imaginative in the way the later two of the series progresses with in-game events as you play, depending upon your actions - top notch.)
Geneforge series (The ability to play through the game with different alliances and factions is great, but Jeff needs to work on the character system so it will lend to more replay and variance in playing through the game, but his games have always been primarily combat focused.)
Betrayal at Krondor (Excellent writing, decent character system, I didn't get too far into it but I didn't dislike it at all. I just had other things to play and it didn't quite hook me. Antara, however, was SHIT.)
Gothic series (About the only people who use 3d that seem to actually care to create the world, versus RNG it feebly like Bethesda, though it is crippled by the combat system. The open-endedness and decision-making end at picking your class and non-combat profession, then it becomes generally linear.)
Magic Candle (Good classic RPG, mileage may vary for the later works.)
Planescape: Torment (Again like Gothic, great game and story, though crippled by the combat system. Also, quite linear.)
Prelude to Darkness (A good indie CRPG, with a thoughtful combat system. I rather liked what I played of the demo, and it was fairly responsive to what I would do.)
MegaTen series (A Console CRPG, one of the few console titles that can be considered to be a CRPG in some form.)
2400 A.D. (I have to give a nod to the design of Chuckles the Jester, and a pretty decent Origin style sci-fi crawler.)
Space Rogue (Another outstanding Origin title, but not designed by one of the core people. It was made by a fellow who later went on to form Looking Glass Studios. All I can say, that for it's time, it was fucking brilliant. It still is.)

There are also a few others I might have missed in this list, but if you search for where I mention a couple of these games, particularly Albion and Ultima together, then you might find some more lists of games that particularly impressed me at the time, and which ones I can remember at the time.