Russian-Ukrainian war

well the first thing we should do is to stop to call this whole thing a war. If people think this is a real full blown out "war", then they need to study history again what it means when Russia goes to "war".

The Germans should know it.
 
No.

It is a civil war by definition.

The situation is comparable to the U.S. Civil war, with Ukraine being one side of the conflict, with the West and Russia being akin to Europe supplying different sides to further their foreign policy.

Russia is NOT at war. Western Europe and the U.S. are NOT at war, but Ukraine IS, and everyone is trying to scavenge the carcass.


To not call this a civil war, is to deny the atrocities and war-crimes committed by both sides in this conflict.

This should not be allowed.
 
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I basically know nothing of the russian-ukranian conflict, but I did find this:
 
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The Dopamine Cleric said:
No.

It is a civil war by definition.

The situation is comparable to the U.S. Civil war, with Ukraine being one side of the conflict, with the West and Russia being akin to Europe supplying different sides to further their foreign policy.

Russia is NOT at war. Western Europe and the U.S. are NOT at war, but Ukraine IS, and everyone is trying to scavenge the carcass.


To not call this a civil war, is to deny the atrocities and war-crimes committed by both sides in this conflict.

This should not be allowed.
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I know to little about it to call it a civil war, so I give you that. But I agree, it would be best if neither Europe/US nor Russia would get involved in to this, and just doing the same shit they usually do all day long anyway. Nothing. I mean where are all those US/Europe do-gooders when someone like uyghur rebiya kadeer talks about the opression by the Chinese government.

On the other side I do understand why Russia is getting in to this. Russia is messing around with the Ukraine for the same reason why the US is messing around with Mexico or some of the South American states. Because they can. And because it is in their interest. Definitely not fair, and I hope those pigs will all burn in hell for taht. But that is simply the reality, and we Europs and the US have simply no buisness in the Ukraine, outside of support with relief supplies, medical treatment and such.
 
Is it just me, or does Vladimir Putin look like Phil Collins?

 
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I'm a little disappointed that our prime minister, Tony Abbott, didn't shirtfront Vladimir Putin as he promised to do. I was rather looking forward to seeing him embarrass himself, as is his custom.
 
Now the conflict seems to be escalating, sort of. Chechen separatists have been increasing their campaign against Russia. The price of oil has dropped putting pressure on Russia and other oil exporters.

Here's a scene from a Finnish sketch show where Finnish president and prime minister have a meeting with Putin. Well, they're actors but the guy playing Putin is kinda funny. If you don't speak Finnish put on subtitles.
 
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Funny, they sang to Cypress Hill's Insane in the brain. OG stuff.

Vladimir dancing. By the guys who made the film Iron Sky.

 
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All this started when the ellected Ukraine prime minister decided against entering the EU, then there is a "spontaneous" uprising, he gets kicked out and the new PM decides to enter the EU, enter NATO, and takes huge loans from the west. Because Russia is not going to stand there and watch as NATO takes Ukraine rigth from under their nose they take meassures to annex crimea (home to their Blak Sea Fleet) and create a buffer zone between the new NATO ally and them with the independence of two Ukraine provinces right next to the russian border. There are no "good guys" and "bad guys" here, just geopolitics between the west and the east, and this mess was started by NATO when they got greedy and wanted to take Ukraine for themselves.
 
Gonzalez said:
There are no "good guys" and "bad guys" here, just geopolitics between the west and the east, and this mess was started by NATO when they got greedy and wanted to take Ukraine for themselves.
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Gonzalez, I thought you were better than buying into Russia's propaganda. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and decides its own fate. If it wants to go towards the West and NATO, it's their sovereign right to do so. Funny how people who claim the Euromaidan was orchestrated by the West (booo, evil Western countries coming for the East with their high quality of life, non-collapsed economies, and politics that aren't servicing oligarchs in every possible way) cannot provide evidence that it was, at all. Given the sheer size of the revolution, there should be a smoking gun in there, somewhere. Compare and contrast Russia's actual interference, for which there is a fuckton of evidence from day one. It's also funny how Janukovych suddenly becomes an annoited patron saint of peaceful Ukraine, even though he was a despot trying to emulate Putin's politics (though more overtly, for example, using Berkut as his personal stormtroopers).

This mess wasn't started by NATO. It was started by Russia and its treatment of Ukraine as a vassal state, not a sovereign country in its own right. By its continued propping up of pro-Russian polticians, support for separatists, supplying weapons to them (including the one that downed MH-17), annexing Crimea...

I mean, seriously. If NATO is interfering so much, where are the NATO divisions on Ukrainian soil, annexing it as part of the Great Satanstate of Europamerica? You know, if they're equally as bad as RusFed, they had to annex a part of the country on flimsy pretenses, right?
 
I have no idea who's right here, but what I do know is that it is important to note how much of a dick russia is.
 
It's not so much about being dicks or not dicks, but balance of power. Gonzales is pointing out the inevitability of certain outcomes in geopolitical landscapes. NATO has not put troops in Ukraine, but both NATO and Russia has an interest in Ukraine as a potential power.
This kind of interference won't end, and it doesn't take a "bad guy" to be pulling any possible string to lead a country towards itself.
Yes, Russia has overstepped legal boundaries (which seems to be a veto-power's right to do, U-S-A! U-S-A!), but one can see why they would, seeing as they have no allies (except Kazakhstan and Armenia or something, lol), so they will be more grabby.
Understanding why a situation happens, is not the same as applauding it, or praising the provocative parties. Recognizing that both parties provoke - but using different measures, without this signalling an "excuse" for either, is also okay.

By now, we all know that Nazi Germany freaked for many different reasons, among them the Versailles Treaty. Recognizing this doesn't give Germany any more excuse to do as they did, but it offers an explanation, and it also reveals the provocation itself - even if the provocation would not merit global war and genocide, the provocation is still observable.
 
If they are such a free country they could have just waited until the next ellection, I just dont buy it when the riots start right after the president decides not to enter the EU and all of a sudden the new one doesnt wait for the country to stabilize before practically swearing allegiance to the EU and NATO (kind like if it was a vassal). And the acceptance of millions in loans that they just KNOW they will never be able to pay back they just tied themselves to the will of their new masters. Also with the precedent of the sheer ammount of CIA promoted coups I don't need russian media to convince me of anything.

I don't have to buy Russia's propaganda, people down here in south america we have our own views on the matter, and when a EU country obeys without question and forces down a diplomatic plane where the president of a sovereign south american nation travels just on the suspicion that a US spy might be in it, risking unforgibable diplomatic offense to one country just to do as another country commands, excuse me but we kind of view the EU/NATO as vassals of the United States.

So no, the NATO and the EU are not the cavlry coming to the rescue of the poor homesteads. This is a fight between NATO and Russia and neither of them care for the well being of the people in Ukraine.
 
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Gonzalez said:
If they are such a free country they could have just waited until the next ellection, I just dont buy it when the riots start right after the president decides not to enter the EU and all of a sudden the new one doesnt wait for the country to stabilize before practically swearing allegiance to the EU and NATO (kind like if it was a vassal). And the acceptance of millions in loans that they just KNOW they will never be able to pay back they just tied themselves to the will of their new masters. Also with the precedent of the sheer ammount of CIA promoted coups I don't need russian media to convince me of anything.
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So you have no proof, but you just assume it was the West because the West is evil? Gonzales, you're better than that.

Also, Euromaidan kicked off after Janukovych suddenly backed out of the association agreement, as in, made a 180 degree spin, reneging on everything he promised the Ukrainian people. He basically switched directions overnight and started heading for Rusland immediately. People started protesting and it turned into a revolution when Janukovych sent in his storm troopers (Berkut was previously observed interfering with the elections on presidential orders). This is Euromaidan 101. As is the fact that Ukraine was essentially being kept on a leash by Russia with gas credits and intentionally kept unstable.

I don't have to buy Russia's propaganda, people down here in south america we have our own views on the matter, and when a EU country obeys without question and forces down a diplomatic plane where the president of a sovereign south american nation travels just on the suspicion that a US spy might be in it, risking unforgibable diplomatic offense to one country just to do as another country commands, excuse me but we kind of view the EU/NATO as vassals of the United States.
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I find it interesting that a person not just on another continent, but an entirely different hemisphere, on the opposite end of the world, dictates to me how I should view events happening in my own back yard. I'm sorry, but I could just as well claim that South American countries are the lapdogs of China, Russia, or whatever other country comes to mind.

But I don't, because I don't have proof.

So no, the NATO and the EU are not the cavlry comming to the rescue of the poor homesteads. This is a fight between NATO and Russia and neither of them care for the well being of the people in Ukraine.
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Russia doesn't give a damn, the EU does. That's the big difference.
 
A vassal of the NATO? Very unlikely. The NATO has not much to say in the Ukraine. Some European states on the other hand, they might do a few things here and there, like Poland maybe, no clue the East-European states, they are all somewhat united in their ... dislike of Russia. Not unlikely how the South American states see the USA.

But if we are honest, the biggest player down there is Russia. There is no doubt about that. Sure, the NATO and Europe would love to get a foot in the Ukraine, but that is understandable. But if the Russians would sack the Ukraine because of some idea of a glorious Russian empire, then there is fucking nothing we (Europe) or the Americans can do.

Simply put, no ones going to start WW3 because of the Ukraine. It's right next to Russia. It's their sphere of influence. On the other hand Russia is messing around with the Ukraine for the last 100 years or so. And not just with words. So I guess it's not hard to guess who's the worst player here.

I guess the Ukrainians have more reason to hate any Russian influence, considering the historical context than lets say the Americans or Europeans. But as said, that is just a guess.

So no, the NATO and the EU are not the cavlry comming to the rescue of the poor homesteads. This is a fight between NATO and Russia and neither of them care for the well being of the people in Ukraine.
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This is a fight between Russia and the Ukraine. Otherwise I would have to ask, where are the NATO troops messing with Ukrainian/Russian borders right now?
 
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Well, I wouldn't put it past the US/NATO instigating things, seeking to destabilize the area, so that Russia can't expand their influence. We all remember Cuba, right? It certainly is possible.
 
So the difference between Russia and the EU is that "they care", how heartwarming.

I wasn't pointing out how you should view yourself, I know how you view yourself, I was just pointing out how we view you. You can give a damn or you wont, it doesn't matter, just letting you know we don't need Russia to do our thinking for us, we just comerce with them because we make profit out of it, but we can think on our own.

Also, so nice of you to share how the people in the EU view us, we decide to trade with the "enemies" of the US and EU and all of a sudden we are their lapdogs. I suppose it's only ok to trade with the US and the EU, or whoever is in their conviniece to trade with. Maybe we do things one way and not the other because when we did things one way our economy got ass-raped by our firends and allies without even a call on the next morning, kind like what is happening in Greece.

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Crni Vuk said:
This is a fight between Russia and the Ukraine. Otherwise I would have to ask, where are the NATO troops messing with Ukrainian/Russian borders right now?
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Geopolitics does not necessarily involve troops on the field, more often than not, it does not. Also, were is the proof of the russian troops invading, of the rebels shooting down the malasian plane and that the armament was supplied by Russia. I'm asking because I've been asked to present "proof" (yeah, like we are on a trial) to support my arguments.
 
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If you want proof of those pretty well-established facts, I'll just point you in the general direction of Wikipedia. In spite of Russia's significant efforts at propaganda, rebels shooting down the Malaysian plane with armaments probably supplied by Russians is, well, fact. As is Russia posting troops over the border.

That's not to say that the 'Western' narrative doesn't contain elisions, provocations and other self-serving framings. Of course they do. The US has spent the past sixty years frequently invading countries, fomenting revolution and supporting violent and dictatorial regimes, especially in South America. Suspicion and disgust at that hypocritical attitude is natural. But that doesn't make Russia's actions anything other than what they are: a violent attempt to thwart a democratic process that would move Ukraine partly outside Russia's sphere of influence. That worries Russia, and the loss of a buffer state is a danger to Russia. So the resulting actions are geopolitical -- but the tales told to justify those actions are a fiction, and you don't need to repeat them to see those actions for what they are.
 
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