Russian-Ukrainian war

[lujo]

Oh, I understand that they were fed up, and that Yanukovich was a piece of shir, but that does not justify siding with fascists to achieve that.

It's quite impossible to avoid. In my country, when the corrupt prime minister Sanader (currently on trial) just ran for it one day, there were huge public protests (well for our standards). It started as a staged protest of right wing war veterans, which only right wingers wanted to get involved with. The main square was full, but it was staged by the temporary goverment and it seemed to be utterly harmless when a big bunch of young football hooligans with no ties to the organization of that protest tried to take the protest to the actual political centre (in front of the parlament). This was banned by law by the Sanader administration (which ment you could only protest where it was not bothering anyone important, by law), and they got their assess kicked by the police. But the police were so vicious, and what the football hooligans did seemed so naive that people were outraged. Noone wanted to get behind the original protest, but when they saw dumb and hopeless kids being clubbed by the police, lots of folks got out on the streets.

When the huge column was going by my place, I just stepped outside and joined up. There was litterally all sorts. Even some football hooligans on their best behaivior, I remember one telling a grandma who was marching beside him (about the police chief) "Who's he calling a hooligan? I'm Mr. Hooligan compared to that secret service piece of ****, and I sure as hell never hit no decent folks with a police club". So, there I am, helping hold up a banner and marching around town, when I notice that my friends were getting progressively more annoyed by an Ustasha fashist (and were talking properly brainwashed "Hitler shoulda won" WWII collaborator throwback here) who was singing Faschist songs through a megaphone. We were all disgusted, but then it hit me - it's a public protest, and he, as retarded as he was, was out on the street doing what he thinks you do in a public protest. He was trying to boost morale! Those were the only war songs he knew! If anyone was taping that, you could say that it was a faschist uprising, when it really was one guy who's grandparents were on the wrong side of the war, except he was loud.

So I walk up to the guy and tell him "Dude, I get you're singing the only stuff you know, but most people here don't like that any better then they like the police, you know? People will leave just so they don't get assosicated with that crap, and look - " and I pointed towards my friends, harmless looking colledge students carrying a large banner on poles which said "Factories back to the workers". He was very confused at first but then he realized that eveyone was looking at us and either frowning at him or looking relieved, so he stopped. And then he went red in the face and tried to appologize and tried to explain that he doesn't want any harm to anyone but the goverment and that he just wants to help and be a part of it, and I told him to help carry a banner. So he did. Five minutes ago anyone "decent" would've seen the column, herd him shouting nonsense and walked away, as soon as he got something non-stupid to do - the scene looked totaly different.

Now, I know Ukrainian faschists are more organized and that there's people elbowing their way into political positions, but you really can't choose who you're gonna get out on the street with you when you go up against a corrupt regime. And about this Putin is right, whatever he does or doesn't do - if the goverment turns out to not reflect the will of the people, if their faschist come out on top, they'll lose the country even without Putin. There was surely decent folks out on the Maidan, and they weren't there for fashizm.

EDIT: Oh, and I got free beers from non-politically alligned football hooligans at that riot. I was scared to death when they asked me where I was from. I was from their rival city, and from a VERY notroious neighbourhood. They were thrilled because they've been in a bunch of fights with guys from my hood (on opposing sides) and considered them the nastiest pieces of work in the country. One even said "See, that's a corrupt goverment for you, when you have guys like this and guys like us on the same side, you can immagine how godawful the other side is". And I was glad they were there too, they're the only people with any street fighting experience. Was one time I was grateful they even existed. ^^

 

[donperkan]

And? They can't directly support Bandera, as his policies are fundamentally incongruous with the fact that an independent Ukraine exists.

Oh, I understand that they were fed up, and that Yanukovich was a piece of shir, but that does not justify siding with fascists to achieve that.

Not the first time people supported a movement without fully understanding its history and its agenda. Ante Pavelić is an example im familiar with. That being said you cant really judge the whole movement based on a few pictures and flags popping out of the masses.

 

[Akratus]

-snip-

Your story is so wonderful and amazing compared to the rabble rousing going on in my country. All there is is a really tiny protest once in a while, the now-dead occupy movement which was small in comparison to other countries too and the only really well known one which was a "project x" style party in Groningen that could've been nipped in the bud by a properly menacing enough police force, which wasn't there. So these kids messed the place up and destroyed things and at least one supermarket. It got the mayor fired.

But of course I shouldn't in any way appear to say that I would like more violent, bigger, more revolutionary protests. Not in any way. It's more of a case where I am personally embarassed for my country, with which I have only experiences that left me in fear of the intelligence of our people.

 

[Ilosar]

That being said you cant really judge the whole movement based on a few pictures and flags popping out of the masses.

That's exactly my point. While much less dramatic than what happened in Ukraine, there were protests a few years back in Quebec to counter a steep raise in university fees. And, as with all protests, lots and lots of different groups and sub-groups joined in. You had hardcore nationalists, monarchists, trade unionists, guys who wanted to privatise the government, groups for legalisation of pot, environmentalists, communists, anarchists, all moving in the same protests. Those unhappy with society will join such movements, if only because they want to spread their message.

That doesn't mean they were representative of the movement as a whole, not by a long shot. According to Chosen1's logic, since there were a handful of people with Che Guevara T-shirts and Soviet Union flags, the entire protest was obviously a communist uprising.

 

[lujo]

^ Oh, and any student protest everywhere, especially in countries where the whole public education system is being systematicaly devastated, is ALWAYS led by the "slackers". Just ask the media. Doesn't matter that you're there on a barricade and you KNOW most of the folks around you have excellent grades and come the end of the semester where they've spent a month occupying a building they all pass their year o.O


And you can deffinitely NOT judge a street riot by it's leaders and organizers, too. The big protests I was talking about earlier were started by a Facebook spammer with serious attention seeking disorder. The guy wasn't right wing, or left wing, but just a nutcase - no one in their right mind woudld want to be associated with him in any way. So what happened was that he and his bunch of loonies would put up a stage and he'd talk for an hour in front of 300 hundred people at best (including reporters and cops), that would go on for an hour, and everyone who actually came to protest would be hanging around the sidestreets waiting for him to GO AWAY. Then when it was clear that whatever was going on had absolutely nothing to do with that guy - IOW he left, it was confirmed and the word spread to the sidestreets - thousands of people would meet up and start moving around as a group and an actual protest began. If he showed up again, people would try to chase him away. The media kept bringing his name and picture up and talking about "his protests" so it kept a lot of folks home "because they don't want to be seen on the same street as that guy". A lot of people who went out on the street went out, and I kid you not, "just to make sure that if the goverment does go down they can be there to stop that guy from taking credit, or representing anyone". My own folks phoned me to tell me they wouldn't want me out there "because that boy Pernar is obviously a lunatic".

Today, those protests are called after that guy. He didn't get any political power, and was never part of anything. Only way to judge a protest/riot is to be there and take part.

 

[Crni Vuk]

There are some similarities to Hitler's invasion of the Sudetenland.

Don't get me wrong please, I dont want to attack you. But I dont think people do here anything good if they see the case like WW2 or comparing the situation with the so called Sudetendeutsche. The situation we see right now in the Ukraine isnt really anything exceptional nor something uniquie as far as the Russian history goes.

You're not attacking me. No problem there. I'm not equating the two events - I'm just making a very general statement. There are some similarities. There are also lots of differences.

What makes this situation now more "worth" in the news coverage compared to the Uyghur people which are seen like terrorist and sub humans by he chinese government?

It's a simple matter of potential power and potential consequences, the same reason Africa is always ignored.

fair enough, but if we make similiarities, then this crimean situation has a lot of resemblences to the way how the US acted on Panama when the US decided to send some troops in there. I mean just reading about some ... justifications from the wikilink:

• Safeguarding the lives of U.S. citizens in Panama. In his statement, Bush claimed that Noriega had declared that a state of war existed between the U.S. and Panama and that he threatened the lives of the approximately 35,000 U.S. citizens living there. There had been numerous clashes between U.S. and Panamanian forces; one U.S. Marine had been killed a few days earlier.
• Defending democracy and human rights in Panama.

What we see is pretty simple. Its nothing new. It happens all the time. Its history at its finest. Super powers playing their muscles. The only sad part again is, that it shows how disgusting our western civiliasion can be, as far as the news coverage goes.

 

[13pm]

Anyone recognize this flag?

It's the flag of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army of World War II, a nationalist organization that fought for an independent Ukrainian state, free of German and Soviet influence. Its lofty ideals were compromised by violence and ambiguous strategies. The Germans wanted to exploit the UPA when the Eastern Front started turning against them and freed Bandera and his men, providing them with weapons and intel. This created the fiction that OUN and UPA were Nazi collaborators from day one.

Good, now here is another pic

Spoiler

Now this shows that they directly support Bandera.

Oh really? That's a nice stretch from a group of guys with a poster to fascist government. I can just as well post a picture of some russian neo-nazis and say that our government consists of Hitler supporters.
But okay, if we are play show-me-a-pic game, here's the one for you. Any conclusions?

 

[Crni Vuk]

What makes this situation now more "worth" in the news coverage compared to the Uyghur people which are seen like terrorist and sub humans by he chinese government?

It's a simple matter of potential power and potential consequences, the same reason Africa is always ignored.

Hmm. I dont know. I dont really see any conquences to be honest, except if the US decides to play the big police force here, which is rather unlikely I guess, I mean they HAVE TO react, yes, Obama has no other choice because its the US, you have here simply two bodybuilders and now they are posing. Even if the Russians decide now to invade the Ukraine, what will happen? I believe nothing will really happen, people and politicans will cry, the US will play withits muscles sending super carriers around the world, but a few months later everything will be back to normal because there is some other crisis or what ever that is more important for the media and the Ukraine will be left in chaos. I mean Europe is not even close to the kind of powerhouse the US is. The US has not really much of a buisness with the Ukraine, which was always a part of Russian/Soviet interests, so will the US go in hostility with Russia because of the Ukraine? That would be like Russia going to war with the US because they decide to invade Mexico for example. Unlikely in my opinion. And Europe is way to addicted to Russian Gas and business to be a counterweight to Russian politics in this case. Its interesting how silent actually our politicans are as far as the Russian government goes, they love to talk about sanctions, but the truth is, the European community is waaaaaaay to split and divided, already as far as small economic decisions goes, leave alone a clear and united foreign policy, where the nations would agree on a clear course and message toward Russia. The way how Europea acted when the US decided to attack the Iraq shows this pretty nicely. I see my self as European, I love the European idea. But I have to face the reality. We are far away from beeing a true European community, that acts like a commonwealth. If shit would hit the fan tomorrow, most European nations would start to isolate them self and maybe even causing tensions. Just see how the Brits, French, Germans, Italians etc. act with each other. On the surface everything is fine and "European", but behind it all, every nation is going with their own politics, and the Brits would give a rats ass about Germany just like Germany would not care even one inch about France as long it does not benefit them. Hell there are enough people inside of Germany that believe that some German states dont deserve "help". I hate to sound cynical, because I believe one day we will get there, or so I hope it at least, because we have to, if we want to avoid global wars, a world war 3 would be the end to humanity, I am pretty sure about that. And the only way to prevent this is to give all people access to information and education, while not all people will be equal in wealth, at least people need a chance to get there. Eventually. And so far, the European idea has been, in principle, very good.

Though even if we decide to blame and condemn the Russians. What kind of double moral is that? We go in calling them "evil" for the same things we did a couple of years ago? And I am not event talking about the US and their actions. People still dont understand what kind of role France had in Rwandan Genocide. Or that Germany is one of the top dealers with military equipment, and people here dont care one inch about tanks and weapons rolling to the United Arabian Emirates. But we all love to bitch about the way how the females are second class citizens there. Still good enough to buy our tanks I guess.

Ah well enough of this ramblings :p

 

[Ilosar]

^ Oh, and any student protest everywhere, especially in countries where the whole public education system is being systematicaly devastated, is ALWAYS led by the "slackers". Just ask the media. Doesn't matter that you're there on a barricade and you KNOW most of the folks around you have excellent grades and come the end of the semester where they've spent a month occupying a building they all pass their year o.O

I hear ya. I remember that the president of my university's student movement went on TV to represent us and was afterwards (in media, Facebook, ect.) called a slacker because he looked a bit unkempt. The guy was a year away from being a friggin actuary, you know, one of the most demanding, strenuous, high-paying jobs possible, and he was unkempt because between strikes and his studies he slept about three-four hours per day.

But anyway, yeah as Crni said this is hardly a unique event and the US, among others, have done the same thing many times. It's just more striking since we're not talking about some small third-world country or a place like Afghanistan, but a medium-sized European power. And also because, thanks to modern media, we know Putin's excuses are a joke.

 

[TheChosen1]

Oh really? That's a nice stretch from a group of guys with a poster to fascist government. I can just as well post a picture of some russian neo-nazis and say that our government consists of Hitler supporters.
But okay, if we are play show-me-a-pic game, here's the one for you. Any conclusions?

View attachment 264

Fine, here you go, this is the current "leader" of Ukraine. Call me colour blind but those flags look suspiciously like those fascist flags I posted earlier:

Spoiler

Oh here is another one:

Spoiler

Boy that one looks like it has the "Svoboda" party symbol on it too.

Spoiler

So, now it looks like there are fascists in power, sure some of them were innocent protesters who didn't know who they were supporting. But overall nazis took power in Ukraine and there is no denying that.

 

[Ilosar]

So, now it looks like there are fascists in power, sure some of them were innocent protesters who didn't know who they were supporting. But overall nazis took power in Ukraine and there is no denying that.

If you dig, you could probably find a picture of Obama with a gay or communist flag somewhere in the background. Obviously the US are therefore run by gay communists, right?

 

[Crni Vuk]

that would be actually an improvement

 

[TheChosen1]

Spoiler

Fine, do these people look like protesters to you?

 

[Ilosar]

There's a cross in the Parliament of Quebec. Obviously this means every single member of the government is a religious zealot who spends his evenings dismembering heathens for fun, eh?

Look, you can flail around and point at flags and pictures all you want. It proves absolutely nothing else than the fact you're so biased you're unable to see anything but the ''truth'' spoon-fed by whatever media you consume. If you claim that people are being executed en masse because they're Russians at this hour, you need to prove it. But since anyone with an internet connection and a working brain knows it's not happening, well, good luck.

 

[TheChosen1]

http://vz.ru/news/2014/3/5/<wbr>675735.html.
http://rt.com/news/ashton-maidan-snipers-estonia-946/
http://newsland.com/news/<wbr>detail/id/696061/
Maybe not killed, but attacked yes.

 

[13pm]

Obviously, there are dickheads in both sides of conflict. Berkut, who beats journalists, women, beats people, who are not opposing, to unconsciosness. Maidan activists, who throw molotovs and rocks at the young militaries who can't oppose them. Nobody says that any side is clean and angel-like. But how is this concerned with Crimea or people who came to power in Ukraine now?
I think your position is quite ignorant, or you are trolling.

 

[Tagaziel]

So, now it looks like there are fascists in power, sure some of them were innocent protesters who didn't know who they were supporting. But overall nazis took power in Ukraine and there is no denying that.

No, no they didn't. If they did, the acting president would be too scared to explicitly deny signing a law abolishing Russian as a language recognized as official on a national level. So far you're pulling various pictures out of your ass without explaining why they are relevant. Where is the Nazi-like legislation? Where are the stormtroopers stomping through non-Ukrainian neighbourhoods? Where are the Right Sector assault teams gearing for Volyn Massacre, Part Two? You're basically parroting Russian talk points, down to dismissing Ukraine's interim government as fascist.

 

[lujo]

Hmmmmm. I've seen this before, a political party waving pictures of deceased Nazi collaborators in time of crisis. Does Ante Pavelić mean anything to you? They've rehabilitated that guy in Croatia even though the guy was about as ridiculous as Bandera, if not worse.

But what is exactly going to happen and why? WWII was a long time ago, and Nazi collaborators everywhere were ussually rather undefensible people. Ukraine is a mess in terms of economy, in terms of human rights, in terms of education and in terms of general prospects. And they've spent the last god knows how many years, but over half a century, under Russian governance (direct or indirect). And life sucks badly. It's sort of logical that there'll be people who'll lack education or vision to imagine any way to oppose "the russians" other than to call on the last guy who openly did so and romanticize him. There's also probably even more people who dream that the EU can't possibly be worse for them than Russia, who are about as wrong as the Bandera rehabilitationists. But those are just... flags. They're mad at Russia for reasons that have nothing to do with either the EU or Fashism.

Putin invading isn't going to help the situation one bit. Same thing happened in Bosnia, everybody sent their troops to "protect their population in Bosnia". What this lead to was genocide, horror, devastation and all the political parties in power being absolutely corrupt while their political program for the next 20 years didn't move an inch away from "the serbs are to blame for everything", "the croatians are to blame for everything" or "the muslims are to blame for everything". Same happened in Croatia - Serbia, then calling itself Yougoslavia, sent troops over to "protect it's endangered citizens" what that resulted in was 5 years of war and a collective psychosis in croatia where 20 years later everything is still being blamed on the serbs.

If that country broke up peacefully, if noone did or tried to do what Putin is doing now (or playing with), the fascists and the demagogues would've been gone a long time ago. He's feeding trolls.

 

[Crni Vuk]

this topic has become interesting again

 

[13pm]

I think your position is quite ignorant, or you are trolling.

In either case, i think it is pointless to discuss anything with people like that, on this particular subject, it will just go on and on. I witnessed many kremlin trolls (which i doubt he is part of ), and you cannot argument logically with them, because they get paid for their work, they don't give a shit about morals, ethics, facts or some such things.. In this case i think he is just probably one of those people who watches too much government tv and reads too many government portals (all of his links are of that origin too), as is the case with many Russians now. I mean we used to have many tourists from Russia every year, summer and winter, but now they are cancelling their vacations here, and why? They watched some government channels and now they think we will attack their cars,try to beat them up etc., and these are people who have already been here! and know that there were never any problems with local, or foreign Russians as far as Lithuanians are concerned. I don't blame them too much, because nobody wants to see their country as the "villain", so they go with the flow.

Yep, you are absolutely right.
I should really visit Lithuania, BTW. Have been thinking about it for couple of years already