Russian-Ukrainian war

Vaguely related, I had actually not encountered the term "russophobe" before this crisis, in fact only once long ago, I thought it was a spontaneous idea, someone's online signature that seemed very angry with all "russophobes", and I thought "who... hates russians?"
But paying attention to whats going on in Ukraine, I got the impression that many russians seem to think they are very hated, not only by ex-soviets and chechens or whatever, but westerners too? Or do I have it all wrong?
If you ask Norwegians, most of their sentiment towards Russians will be with a chuckle, we think of them as fond of vodka, and not afraid of winter, and that's pretty much as hateful as it gets :D
 
zegh8578 said:
Vaguely related, I had actually not encountered the term "russophobe" before this crisis, in fact only once long ago, I thought it was a spontaneous idea, someone's online signature that seemed very angry with all "russophobes", and I thought "who... hates russians?"
But paying attention to whats going on in Ukraine, I got the impression that many russians seem to think they are very hated, not only by ex-soviets and chechens or whatever, but westerners too? Or do I have it all wrong?
If you ask Norwegians, most of their sentiment towards Russians will be with a chuckle, we think of them as fond of vodka, and not afraid of winter, and that's pretty much as hateful as it gets :D
Click to expand...

I may very well be oversimplifying, but Russians seem to have a bit of a victim complex, despite historically being the biggest victimizers of their region by a fairly big margin, before, during and after the USSR. So they imagine everyone hates them and wants to conquer them and all that jazz. Then again, it's a trend with patriotism everywhere I find, to act is if every slight made against your nation is the worst offense in history while at the same time dismissing any slight your nation has comitted as necessary for its survival or something.
 
Last edited:
Well, they're big on internal propaganda as a means of keeping cohesion and justifying strange internal political and economic decisions. Not sure if on par with Americans, Americans are HUGE on it, and have actually managed to project propaganda sucessfuly and systematically (through culture exports) for most of the cold war so there were more anglo-philes. But former soviet colonies probably have plenty of people who're scared of Russians, and, well, there's really depressing and horrifying stuff coming from Russia through the web. Say, the vicious small scale gay persecutions and active nazi grupos running rampant through the countryside - there's extremists and nutcases everywhere, but the Russian take on it seems to be quite ridiculous. Then you have the fact that westerners are sort of used to corrupt and power mongering elites ruling them, but they haven't been ruled by Tzars like Putin for a while now, nor are they openly fetishistic to military like the Russians come across as. And then there's the tycoons who look like vastly more powerful and dangerous variants of local crooks anyone's familiar with in their own country. And then most of the interactions with younger russians through the net where they strongly identify themselves as Russians makes them come across as macho, misoginistic and/or brainwashed. Try some of the Russian Fallout 2 mods - the levels of casual misoginy can be startling and offputting. Then you check out pages and pages of "women can't play mobas because they're physically inferior to men in every way" threads in moba forums where you get young Russians belwidered by the very idea of gender equality... So you'll kind of spontaneously and casually get attitudes from random russians which you associate with the worst people you've ever met in your society, and you'll rarely if ever hear anything good or optimistic about the country.

So it's actually rather easy to come to see Russia as something of an European Uganda with white people and lots of military firmly stuck in medieval mentality (or worse). I'm pretty sure this doesn't represent every actual Russian, but too much of what comes from over there is quite horrifying. I'm not fond of the US, either, but they're scary in a different way.

DISCLAIMER: Not "hating" on Russians here, just saying that this is what the country seems to unknowingly projects. I'm quite hopeful that the actual truth isn't like that.
 
Last edited:
lujo said:
So it's actually rather easy to come to see Russia as something of an European Uganda with white people and lots of military firmly stuck in medieval mentality (or worse). I'm pretty sure this doesn't represent every actual Russian, but too much of what comes from over there is quite horrifying. I'm not fond of the US, either, but they're scary in a different way.
Click to expand...


But that still doesn't mean people go around being "russophobic", I mean, go back to those Norwegians who chuckled about vodka and winter, and ask them what they think about the politics of the Russian Federation, and their answer is much less optimistic - but that doesn't make them "russophobes"

Russia never struck me as a country people go around hating (except for their obvious "subjects"), compare to USA. Now there you're gonna get some world-wide hate-on. Even countries like France and Britain are more openly hated than Russia, well, that's changing now of course...
 
Well, true, but the problem there is the word "phobic" and the word "hate". People aren't really "afraid" of the US even when the US is bombing them. USA gets hated, despized, loathed and ridiculed, but people aren't exactly afraid of being conquered/puppeted by USA (even though they very probably should be). On the other hand, people are mostly deathly afraid of Russia. So if you look at it another way, I've never seen someone who's a Russian-hater, but plenty of russophobes.

I think this might have something to do with their different historical takes on imperialism.

EDIT: In historical terms USA is seen as more of a Merchant Empire gone crazy, while Russia is seen as more of an oriental despotism kind of deal. In pop culture terms the US is like the Ferengi with nukes, Russia is like some Always Lawful Evil land who only ever approaches you when they have particularly ambitious leadership, but otherwise is otherwise happy to mind it's own business. Or possibly better described, the US is like a natural disaster - sometimes it just rains, sometimes i'ts a hurricane, and Russia is like the end of the world - it they even show up, you're f****d.
 
Last edited:
lujo said:
Same happened in Croatia - Serbia, then calling itself Yougoslavia, sent troops over to "protect it's endangered citizens" what that resulted in was 5 years of war and a collective psychosis in croatia where 20 years later everything is still being blamed on the serbs.
Click to expand...
Yup, those Balkanians! Hot tempered men they are, drinking slivovitza and rattling with knives all the time. Also, they've invented nakurnjak, which is basically a woolen, knitted, dick-shaped sweater protecting their junk from harsh freeze. Man, I can only imagine how aggressive I'd be while wearing it!

qzi1c4.jpg


Now I'm hoping that good Balkanian people will forgive me this little friendly poke. :razz:
 
^ No offense taken, no such thing as bad publicity! Cheers from the jolly land of rakija, casual drunken knife fights and folk songs that go (translated) "Noone's got what a Serbian has got / a Serbian's got balls the size of bagpipes / and a d**k the size of a medieval morningstar to go with it / so he's hated by the Germans and the Brittish".

And what I ment by "everything still being blamed on the Serbs 20 years later" I didn't mean about the war, but EVERYTHING from that point to this day. Someone hits his finger while hanging up a painting - Serbs. Flood in Slavonia? Serbs! People at the caffe looking in disbelief at the twin towers collapsing (when that was happening) -Serbs! Our crooked prime minister selling the national Oil company to the Hungarians and all the banks in the country to the Austrians? Serbs!

EDIT: But when an actual Serbian shows up a a tourist they're bewildered about it. Tons of people listen to serbian music, like serbian food and rakija and adore their accents, and just about nobody would hurt an actual Serbian (because he/she is not like the rest of them!). But god help you if your car has Sebian licence plates and you're not around as a guarantee that it doesn't belong to the devil himself...

Oh, and a few weeks ago there was, according to the US all-but-colonial-gouverner of Bosnia: "Certain indicators that there might be some unhappiness among the Bosnian people with the social policies of the Bosnian political elite". That quote was sliding along the bottom of the news report, while the video is showing... a huge bloody skyscraper on fire. I'm looking at it and thinking: "Oh, you think? I thought they're burning government buildings all over the place because they didn't like the paintjob on the fasade?!".

That's kind of the future of Ukraine if they manage to align themselves to the west, too. And if Russians make a messy invasion to grab some key terrain, they'll be blaming the Russians for everything until hell freezes over...
 
Last edited:
zegh8578 said:
lujo said:
So it's actually rather easy to come to see Russia as something of an European Uganda with white people and lots of military firmly stuck in medieval mentality (or worse). I'm pretty sure this doesn't represent every actual Russian, but too much of what comes from over there is quite horrifying. I'm not fond of the US, either, but they're scary in a different way.
Click to expand...


But that still doesn't mean people go around being "russophobic", I mean, go back to those Norwegians who chuckled about vodka and winter, and ask them what they think about the politics of the Russian Federation, and their answer is much less optimistic - but that doesn't make them "russophobes"

Russia never struck me as a country people go around hating (except for their obvious "subjects"), compare to USA. Now there you're gonna get some world-wide hate-on. Even countries like France and Britain are more openly hated than Russia, well, that's changing now of course...
Click to expand...

depends who you ask. I can tell you, the Russians are definitely not loved a lot in most east european nations, like Poland for example. For obvious reasons, without going in to stupid hate, but you can at least understand where most of the antipathy is coming from when you consider the Soviet response to "freedom" and "revolutions". Like in Prague or Warsaw. Yes, those have been different times, and it was the Soviet army. But for many people the "its the Russians" simply stuck. Even if its not completely true. In Afghanistan for example if I remember right, most of the Soldiers that have been fight there, have not been Russian soldiers, at leats the first soldiers they have send in to the meat grinder. What ever if it is right or not, but Russians had always a rather bad reputation, historically speaking.
 
Crni Vuk said:
depends who you ask. I can tell you, the Russians are definitely not loved a lot in most east european nations, like Poland for example. For obvious reasons, without going in to stupid hate, but you can at least understand where most of the antipathy is coming from when you consider the Soviet response to "freedom" and "revolutions". Like in Prague or Warsaw. Yes, those have been different times, and it was the Soviet army. But for many people the "its the Russians" simply stuck. Even if its not completely true. In Afghanistan for example if I remember right, most of the Soldiers that have been fight there, have not been Russian soldiers, at leats the first soldiers they have send in to the meat grinder. What ever if it is right or not, but Russians had always a rather bad reputation, historically speaking.
Click to expand...

Being the main imperialistic power in your region will get you feared, it may get you respected to a point, but it sure won't get you loved. And we can say whatever we want about the United States, they were and are a bunch of boy scouts compared to the worst of the USSR.
 
The western world keeps going on about morals and crises, about how they have to intervene in some country, how the terrorist threat needs to be handled, relations and politics and blablabla.

But then when some real injustice is done, we don't care because it's not in a third world country where we can do what we like without consequences for the 'civilized world.'

Not a surprise, of course. Or maybe the eu/un/usa actually do have some backbone, but just take more time to show it.
 
Nothing will happen, Putin out played NATO and the West. Those poor suckers that think joining Russia will give them special benefits are in for a nasty surprise. Russia's got nothing to offer them, no improvements to their lives. While the rest of Ukraine will stand to gain a lot from the rest of the world - World Bank loans, IMF loans, blah, blah - gifts from a shamed West.
 
Akratus said:
The western world keeps going on about morals and crises, about how they have to intervene in some country, how the terrorist threat needs to be handled, relations and politics and blablabla.

But then when some real injustice is done, we don't care because it's not in a third world country where we can do what we like without consequences for the 'civilized world.'

Not a surprise, of course. Or maybe the eu/un/usa actually do have some backbone, but just take more time to show it.
Click to expand...

It takes time, especially when you deal with Russia, a nuclear power and one of the primary gas suppliers to Europe. At this point, Crimea may be lost. However, Putin is a fucking moron in geopolitics. By (re)establish Russia as a hostile foreign power, he forces Europe to end its dependence on Russian supplies and support Ukraine. If he doesn't reverse course, Russia will be isolated and implode.

I wouldn't say Putin outplayed the West, though. It's blatant military aggression in complete disregard and violation of international law, leading to Russia's isolation on the international forum. Too little gain for too high a cost.

My only wish is that the British government would show some spirit and crack down on Russian finances in London. If Putin cannot be convinced, maybe inconveniencing his backers will.
 
AskWazzup said:
Don't know if it's a joke, or real, but it seems someone created an idiotic petition for the joining of the city that i live in, to the federation of Russia:

https://secure.avaaz.org/ru/petitio...pedskogo_kraya_v_sostav_Rossiyskoy_Fede/?copy
Click to expand...

If those web-petitions had any effect whatsoever, there would allready be no more animal cruelty, there'd be clean water for all of Africa, 10 wells per square mile, and the Saami people of North Scandinavia would have their own national anthem.
I see it has 115 votes allready. I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and suspect it's gonna take more than that :D
 
zegh8578 said:
If those web-petitions had any effect whatsoever, there would allready be no more animal cruelty, there'd be clean water for all of Africa, 10 wells per square mile, and the Saami people of North Scandinavia would have their own national anthem.
I see it has 115 votes allready. I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and suspect it's gonna take more than that :D
Click to expand...

Well i don't even know if it's a serious attempt at something and even if it is, the major concern is not that they would get the votes, that's bs in any case, but that there are such attempts of informational war, as i was suggesting a couple of times already, is what is bothering me. The main purpose of kremling trolls, petitions, falsification of facts on tv etc. is to spread doubt and to disrupt the unity (whatever is left of it anyway) of people. These are hundreds of such events, laying down foundations for something bigger, that's how i think Putin works.
 
AskWazzup said:
Well i don't even know if it's a serious attempt at something and even if it is, the major concern is not that they would get the votes, that's bs in any case, but that there are such attempts of informational war, as i was suggesting a couple of times already, is what is bothering me. The main purpose of kremling trolls, petitions, falsification of facts on tv etc. is to spread doubt and to disrupt the unity (whatever is left of it anyway) of people. These are hundreds of such events, laying down foundations for something bigger, that's how i think Putin works.
Click to expand...

ah yeah, sowing seeds of ideas, and creating an illusion that certain topics are popular and in the wind (seen used in the middle east, for example, when people typically go "in the past we used to be neighbors, but now, for some reason, we fight", at some point, they were introduced to the concept that they were supposedly enemies
 
Akratus said:
The western world keeps going on about morals and crises, about how they have to intervene in some country, how the terrorist threat needs to be handled, relations and politics and blablabla.

But then when some real injustice is done, we don't care because it's not in a third world country where we can do what we like without consequences for the 'civilized world.'

Not a surprise, of course. Or maybe the eu/un/usa actually do have some backbone, but just take more time to show it.
Click to expand...

Friend, don't be silly. We are doing plenty. Keep in mind America has recently been out of three wars.

From the NY Times:

"Although President Obama has made it clear that the United States does not want to escalate the Crimean crisis, the Pentagon stepped up training operations in Poland and sent fighter jets to patrol the skies over Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, three former Soviet republics with sizable populations of ethnic Russians. Mr. Obama, who was spending the weekend in Florida, also held phone consultations about Ukraine with the French president and the British and Italian prime ministers, then had a conference call with the presidents of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, which are NATO members."

We are doing something. We've promised to back the Ukraine. Let's just hope this settles down without coming to blows. It should.

Now, what about that Right Sector? I've heard very little about them. Are they still running around armed?
 
The Right Sector are just about as active as ever. Their leader was trialed and 'arrested' by the Russian court (without his presence, of course). They also get accused of random violence by the Kremlin propaganda machine occasionally, but that's the extent of it.

I've read a pretty interesting article on the situation by my favorite Russian politician, Alexei Navalny. He suggested that Putin will take a classic two steps forward and one step back - give Crimea its independence through the referendum, rather than make it part of the Federation. Seems fairly reasonable to me. All this talk about how Putin wants to invade Europe is silly, his interests do not lie within making the Russian nation powerful.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top