Cobra Commander
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
I do not remember any. I may be mistaken, but taking out that stupid Yakuza, all the gangs in the Core region have at least a origin, however simple it may be.
Senior Producer: "The Legion is our ... evil group"
- Thread starter Brycen
- Start date
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
I do not remember any. I may be mistaken, but taking out that stupid Yakuza, all the gangs in the Core region have at least a origin, however simple it may be.
Ben Soto
Professional Salt Shaker
New Vegas doesn't take place in the Core Region.
I do not remember any. I may be mistaken, but taking out that stupid Yakuza, all the gangs in the Core region have at least a origin, however simple it may be.
I'm talking mostly about gangs like the Vipers and the Jackals and (to a lesser extent) the above-ground Fiends. They do have backstory, unlike F3 and F4, but their primary purpose is to serve as roadblocks on major routes and give the player essentially free XP.
Cobra Commander
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
I understood your point. Yes, I agree on that.
Congratulations! Some of you have utterly failed to get the point, despite how obvious it's been made. Wasteland is only part of it. Read what Sawyer stated about the factions again. DERP!
Because you can wear t-shirts that have the actual name of the game. What a silly question.
Speaking of which, I've noticed that one of your embarrassing and moronic marijuana-related threads (something about Nipton) in General Discussion got deleted or moved after everyone ignored it. LOL!
Rage more, hypocrite! Sounds like you've already gotten medical help... from Doctor Frankenstein!
Look who's talking now. Don't let it keep you up at night!
What IS so difficult to understand about the original point, anyway? Sawyer stated that he didn't want to make the factions black and white. Yet during the game's presentation its senior producer calls one of the main factions an "evil group" and "bad faction" of the game. Short development time is irrelevant here.
Uh-huh, especially making them the evil faction of the game. Wake up, goatple.
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Prone Squanderer
A bit of a Sillius Soddus.
Black Angel
Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus
CerberusGate
I should save my game in a whole new slot
Extra note:
So, you're telling me @Risewild became a uber-strong, eloquent and agile creature crafted by science whose only flaw is causing strangers like yourself to feel fear in his presence (until they get to know him better)? Or he got help with chemistry research since Victor Frankenstein is not a medical doctor? Because the implications are not much of actual insults.
More like indirect compliments.
Depicted Risewild ^
EDIT:
Depicted Brycen ^
I admit, I am an old school troll, I love getting attention from people, specially when they are Nu Trolls. It puts me in a good mood for the rest of the day. And allows me to post troll-ish posts like this because your threads really can't be derailed anymore since you stopped trying and now they are incoherent where you just post videos without any context to defend something you said that no one is sure what it is.
I love you Brycen, you complete my internet habits
.Also, try a bit harder and actually explain why you're posting videos? We can't read minds here, or is it the tin foil hat preventing us from reading it?
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Alphons
National Beholder
They are named EVIL, because they CRUCIFY, BURN WHOLE TOWNS ALIVE, ENSLAVE and RAPE. It's justified by some( Caesar, Lucius), but there's a great deal of Legion members( I'm looking especially at you Vulpes, but also Aurelian, Dead Sea). Compare it with House( threaten or sign a treaty with NCR, let them finish Legion) or NCR( Moore that resorts to extreme methods, when she doesn't see other options, officers accepting bribes, disinformation and lack of discipline ).
If our society was looking more like Legion, than NCR we would propably consider the latter evil, because we wouldn't be able to relate to their problems and methods, as much as with Legion.
If our society was looking more like Legion, than NCR we would propably consider the latter evil, because we wouldn't be able to relate to their problems and methods, as much as with Legion.
The NCR is a mix of NPCs with their karma settings ranging from "neutral" to "good". Not a single active NCR character was set to "evil" or "very evil" in the game.
New California Republic:
Caesar's Legion is a mix of NPCs with their karma settings ranging from "neutral" to "very evil". Not a single active Legion character was set to "good" or "very good" in the game.
Caesar's Legion:
The myth about the game's main warring factions not being ultimately treated as "black and white" has been debunked.
Have a good day.
New California Republic:
- Lieutenant Hayes: "Good"
- Ranger Bryce Anders: "Good"
Caesar's Legion is a mix of NPCs with their karma settings ranging from "neutral" to "very evil". Not a single active Legion character was set to "good" or "very good" in the game.
Caesar's Legion:
- Vulpes Inculta: "Very Evil"
- Dead Sea: "Evil"
- Atticus: "Evil"
The myth about the game's main warring factions not being ultimately treated as "black and white" has been debunked.
Have a good day.
Cobra Commander
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
And?
CaptJ
The Rival of Roquefort Hall
I have to agree with @Risewild here. I'm not sure of the point that you trying to make. To me, the moral ambiguity of FO:NV isn't with the Legion but the other factions. The NCR is corrupt; but if it wasn't for them, the Mojave would have been Legion territory. Mr. House also hates the Legion but he is actively hindering NCR's war against the Legion as a bid for time. Emil does moral grayness and black&white morality poorly so it isn't really about making every faction moral equivalents.Also, try a bit harder and actually explain why you're posting videos? We can't read minds here, or is it the tin foil hat preventing us from reading it?
- Caesar: "Neutral"
The indisputable total leader of a faction is Neutral, so the faction is Neutral. Doesn't matter if some of the faction are evil (they take pleasure in doing the more evil things), the leader does not. He employs the extreme means because he sees the harsh world he lives on as needing those measures (hard world, hard methods) for mankind survival. After all NCR is not "evil" in game just like the USA pre-war wasn't evil, but look at where that leaded mankind, to the brink of extinction.
Caesar employs these extreme methods but ingame the lore says that his territory is actually good for it's citizens, it is a police state but citizens live more safe and better lives than they did when they were tribals. If the Legion controlled all of the USA territory, there wouldn't be the need for the extreme methods that they use in the war and everyone would live safe and better.
"Can't have an omelette without cracking a few eggs". The Legion does evil things in the war so they don't have to do it anymore when they have peace (forever).
Also of course most NCR troops are good, they are voluntary troops, the evil people of the NCR will not be joining the army, they stay home being selfish and being criminals because the NCR can't keep their citizens safe like Caesar can.
While some characters in a faction are good or bad doesn't make the faction itself good or bad. The Legion is the more evil due to the methods they employ in the war and how they have slaves, but in the territory they control, their rule is totally neutral karma just like their leader.
The Courier endings further support the already presented evidence.
New California Republic:
Caesar's Legion:
New California Republic:
- Good Karma:
The Courier, fair and even-handed in his/her dealings throughout the Wasteland, was honored by the NCR for his/her support of the military at Hoover Dam. . . .
- Neutral Karma:
Though the Courier's agenda was debated by many, he/she was honored by NCR for his/her support of the military at Hoover Dam. . . .
- Bad Karma:
With brutal methods that few in NCR would approve of, it was the Courier who secured NCR's victory at Hoover Dam. . . .
Caesar's Legion:
- Good Karma:
Though the Courier himself/herself was just and forthright in his/her dealings throughout the Wasteland, he/she helped the Legion achieve victory. . . .
- Neutral Karma:
The Courier, a mercenary at heart, helped the Legion achieve victory at Hoover Dam. . . .
- Bad Karma:
The Legion marched over the Hoover Dam with the help of one who was as brutal and merciless as the worst of them: The Courier. . . .
I don't see any further support. Also I haven't seen in the entire thread any presented evidence of... I still don't know what you're providing evidence of...
Dialogue with Caesar:
Therefore, if Caesar's Legion and the NCR are the opposites, and Caesar's Legion was written as the main "evil group" of the game, then the writers' intent for the NCR, combined with the earlier presented evidence, must be. . . ?
It's in the writing.
Courier: Hegelian Dialectics? What are those?
Caesar: . . . Each dialectic begins with a proposition, a thesis which inherently contains, or creates, its opposite - an antithesis. Thesis and antithesis. . . .
Courier: So what's "dialectic" about you and the NCR?
Caesar: Thesis and antithesis. . . .
Caesar: . . . Each dialectic begins with a proposition, a thesis which inherently contains, or creates, its opposite - an antithesis. Thesis and antithesis. . . .
Courier: So what's "dialectic" about you and the NCR?
Caesar: Thesis and antithesis. . . .
Therefore, if Caesar's Legion and the NCR are the opposites, and Caesar's Legion was written as the main "evil group" of the game, then the writers' intent for the NCR, combined with the earlier presented evidence, must be. . . ?
It's in the writing.
Prone Squanderer
A bit of a Sillius Soddus.
That the NCR are the absolute good guys and we should root for them!
In spite of having widespread political corruption, unable to properly train and supply their own army and taking land whether the inhabitants of said land like it or not whilst imposing their laws onto them.
CerberusGate
I should save my game in a whole new slot
Also on NCR people being either neutral or good, here's Sawyer's opinions on Cassandra Moore, a lead figure in the NCR:
In fact in the JSawyer mod (made personally by Sawyer with changes that appears to contain planned tweaks that never made it into the final release or in official patches as they are in line with what Sawyer has said), Moore's Karma is set to Evil. Which is telling about what the developers actually wanted to do with Moore (even when her karma was set to Neutral).
Pretty sure with plenty of people like Moore, Oliver and Kimball in the NCR (in fact in cut materials, Moore actually becomes Brigadier General over Hsu because she was more opportunistic than him, giving her even more power), the NCR can hardly call itself the shining beacon of morality, purity and goodness. In fact, I'd argue that they could become as bad as the Legion with time.
So it's not black vs white morality here, more like black (though with shades of grey) vs grey that is slowly darkening.
EDIT: @Risewild
I was thinking along the line of the book's Frankenstein's monster:
https://fallout.gamepedia.com/Cassandra_Moore
https://archive.is/pCRAS (Question asked that Sawyer personally replied to: The BoS and Kings are all enemies of the NCR how is she being "evil" for ridding the Mojave of their presence?)
In fact in the JSawyer mod (made personally by Sawyer with changes that appears to contain planned tweaks that never made it into the final release or in official patches as they are in line with what Sawyer has said), Moore's Karma is set to Evil. Which is telling about what the developers actually wanted to do with Moore (even when her karma was set to Neutral).
Pretty sure with plenty of people like Moore, Oliver and Kimball in the NCR (in fact in cut materials, Moore actually becomes Brigadier General over Hsu because she was more opportunistic than him, giving her even more power), the NCR can hardly call itself the shining beacon of morality, purity and goodness. In fact, I'd argue that they could become as bad as the Legion with time.
So it's not black vs white morality here, more like black (though with shades of grey) vs grey that is slowly darkening.
EDIT: @Risewild
I was thinking along the line of the book's Frankenstein's monster:
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CaptJ
The Rival of Roquefort Hall
This thread is the definition of beating a dead horse.
@Brycen I don't think anyone is actually arguing against your point. It is just that your arguments are questionable. I think that @Risewild is just trolling you because of how stupid your arguments are. I really hope that @Risewild is right about you because this is sad.
@Brycen I don't think anyone is actually arguing against your point. It is just that your arguments are questionable. I think that @Risewild is just trolling you because of how stupid your arguments are. I really hope that @Risewild is right about you because this is sad.
You're failing to understand what it is said right there... The Legion is the thesis while NCR is the antithesis, but you failed to understand the context of that entire conversation and are only quoting a tiny bit. One is the opposite of the other because one is corrupt and follows the old world system and most likely will bring another apocalypse, while the other has no corruption, creates a new world system and is designed to prevent another apocalypse.Dialogue with Caesar:
Courier: Hegelian Dialectics? What are those?
Caesar: . . . Each dialectic begins with a proposition, a thesis which inherently contains, or creates, its opposite - an antithesis. Thesis and antithesis. . . .
Courier: So what's "dialectic" about you and the NCR?
Caesar: Thesis and antithesis. . . .
Therefore, if Caesar's Legion and the NCR are the opposites, and Caesar's Legion was written as the main "evil group" of the game, then the writers' intent for the NCR, combined with the earlier presented evidence, must be. . . ?
It's in the writing.
Why would Caesar say that they are the opposite and mean NCR is good and Legion is evil when he believes the opposite, that the Legion is good (but has to use extreme means) and the NCR is evil (corrupt, unsafe, with the rich exploiting the poor, etc).
Again, if the writers wanted the Legion to be Evil then Caesar would be Evil too. Neutral in Fallout (and even in other universes like D&D) doesn't mean that a person or faction doesn't do anything good or evil, it means that they will do whatever they think necessary to achieve their goals, but they do not enjoy when they do good or evil things, they don't do good things just out of the good in their heart and they don't do evil things just because they can...