Senior Producer: "The Legion is our ... evil group"

The Legion is a very very very dark gray. Their actions were brutal and opressive but they achieved their goal of order and productivity. I mean totalitarian regimes can work and sustain themselves but you would never consider them as nice places to live in.

Even if you like the Legion as an option in the story you can't seriously argue they weren't evil, unless you are crazy that is.
 
CaptJ said:
Not to be a dick but what you said is a combination of empty platitudes and postmodern garbage. Moral relativity is such a cancer.
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Moral relativity isn't "postmodern". Philosophers as far back as ancient Greece have proposed the idea of moral relativity.

To this day the only critique that makes some sense is that it is impractical. Even this entire thread is a testament to how hard it is for people to agree on what is 'good' and 'evil'.

Calling it 'a cancer' because you cannot accept other people's opinions is just immature.
 
Apollyon said:
Moral relativity isn't "postmodern"
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I didn't say that it was. What was postmodern is the nonsensical reasoning and completely ignores the points made.
Apollyon said:
Calling it 'a cancer' because you cannot accept other people's opinions is just immature.
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Cancer is the most accurate description of it. I don't need pretend that every opinion is equally valid. I don't need to respect the opinion that children can consent to sex. Besides, the whole roundabout interpretations of every situation that I present is getting really old really fast.
Walpknut said:
Even if you like the Legion as an option in the story you can't seriously argue they weren't evil, unless you are crazy that is.
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You say that after a bunch of people in this thread try to argue that the Legion wasn't evil... Anyway while the Legion is more destructive, it is a step up from the typical raider gangs in the sense that it somewhat respects those that try to live off the land (farmers and rancher; not so much Tribals) and the adoption of a currency means that they do in some sense honor its debt. Still it is very hard to imagine a good aligned character that is still part of the Legion. Legate Lanius being next in line made me lose all hope of the Legion's plans working and I really can't see Vulpes Inculta leading the Legion.
 
When I did Good Karma Legion runs I operated under the assumption that my character would try to take over. Good Karma runs usually left Caesar alive too so that he could be later dissuaded to change his next in line.
 
Cobra Commander said:
Talk to Siri at the fort. Ask her how CL treats slave women.
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"We're property. If you're too young or too old, the men usually leave you alone. Usually."
That's.... an implication, I guess? It's not as obvious or more 'upfront' like usual slavery and 'women is for breeding' talks that's more often found even outside of the Legion. This is Siri who's been a slave for three years, so I guess you can believe her words on it. But the way I see it, child-rape was only performed by a very select few personnel in the Legion, but certainly not something condoned nor tolerated by the higher-ups. I mean, Caesar even punished homosexuality with death. Also, is there anyone outside the Legion who would tell you of such atrocity? If the sentence, "They rape children.", with an emphasize on 'They', is something that's to be related with the Legion, then I'm sure their enemies would've talk of it.
 
Cobra Commander said:
Talk to Siri at the fort. Ask her how CL treats slave women.
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She only says this:
We're property. If you're too young or too old, the men usually leave you alone. Usually.
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There is no mention of rape in the entire dialogue, it can mean anything from a beating, to force them to do heavy works to just insult them, etc.
She also mentions that under Caesar rule they are not that badly treated, because if Caesar is dead, she is terrified of the Legate being the leader:
Caesar dead, I'm afraid for the women. The Legate is a brutal man, and he enjoys inflicting pain.
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So while those women are slaves, under Caesar they are usually treated ok-ish and even kids and old women are usually ok-ish too. But if the Legate becomes the leader, she is terrified of how they will all be treated.
 
"Usually" which means they still rape them if they are young. Many legionaries comment on how beutiful the New Slave girls are and they are constantly being kept with explosive collars around their necks while dressed in rags and forced into hard labor, tell me how that is being treated ok? Also Caesar considers women slaves to be for breeding, remember how they were selling Boone's wife off?
 
Walpknut said:
"Usually" which means they still rape them if they are young. Many legionaries comment on how beutiful the New Slave girls are and they are constantly being kept with explosive collars around their necks while dressed in rags and forced into hard labor, tell me how that is being treated ok? Also Caesar considers women slaves to be for breeding, remember how they were selling Boone's wife off?
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Uhh.... that 'usually' was in context of 'usually leaving them alone if they're too young or too old', not 'usually raping them if they are young'. And yes, Caesar considers women are meant to be breeding, but compared to if the Legate gets to lead the Legion, under Caesar's rules women are treated 'better'.
 
What do you think they mean by "Leave them alone" if they are too old or young? You needed Siri to describe her latest rape?
 
If you prefer, forget all this child rape talk and focus on how they use children as human bombs. (Ranger Andy, in Novac)
 
Walpknut said:
What do you think they mean by "Leave them alone" if they are too old or young? You needed Siri to describe her latest rape?
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*sigh* What do you think she meant by "We're property. If you're too young or too old, the men usually leave you alone. Usually."? This dialogue was a reply to the Courier's question, "How are the women treated around here?". It means what it means, that Siri acknowledge all the reputation of the Legion treating women as a property, mainly for breeding even if that's by way of force and rape. Then she added to it that 'If you're too young or too old, usually you'll be left alone', as in they will not beat and/or rape you if you're too young. It only give some slight implication that the Legion 'might' also rape children and elder, but they usually don't.

Again, remember that Caesar punish homosexuality with death. What do you think he will do to those who's found committing an atrocity such as child-rape?

Also, Walp, you haven't elaborated on your mention of the little girl on the Legion's camp. Did you meant Melody? The girl who asked you to retrieve her teddy bear?

Cobra Commander said:
It is.
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Again, I ask, did their enemy ever mentioned to you that the Legion committed child-rape? Hell, even going as far as claiming that it's something tolerated by Caesar?

Cobra Commander said:
If you prefer, forget all this child rape talk and focus on how they use children as human bombs. (Ranger Andy, in Novac)
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Yeah, so? I wouldn't deny that. But my question remains: is it true that 'They rape children.', like you claimed?
 
Cobra Commander said:
If you prefer, forget all this child rape talk and focus on how they use children as human bombs. (Ranger Andy, in Novac)
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That was one case, but to be honest, following that reasoning, the NCR is also evil because they ordered the massacre in Bitter Springs including children and old people when they were unarmed and just running away without fighting or anything.
It was so bad that Boone and Vargas deserted the NCR.
 
It's a post apocalyptic world. There are few good people left, and those in power usually didn't get there by being nice.
The only people who are honestly nice people are the Followers of the Apocalypse, and they get dicked around endlessly for that.
But it's undeniable that the Legion are the biggest dicks in New Vegas. But they have a reason to be that way, they were formed by the wasteland, a radical reaction to the apocalypse. They're very alien to us now, especially with semi-working alternatives like the NCR in place, but they are a somewhat logical result of the wasteland.
They are underdeveloped and somewhat ridiculous in their attire, though.
 
Risewild said:
That was one case, but to be honest, following that reasoning, the NCR is also evil because they ordered the massacre in Bitter Springs including children and old people when they were unarmed and just running away without fighting or anything.
It was so bad that Boone and Vargas deserted the NCR.
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I remember both of they are discharged, not deserted.
 
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