Senior Producer: "The Legion is our ... evil group"
- Thread starter Brycen
- Start date
Hey, I like Skyrim, too. Not as an RPG or as an engaging story or anything, but for what it is: A fun game that I don't have to think too much about.
mithrap
Ring a ding-ding, baby
The thing about expanding Legion "civilian" content is that... it would be quite hard in terms of quest content, especially with NV's engine. Imagine Cass' quest translated in a Legion controlled territory : it would simply be an investigation, with zero action, and the engine is... very limited when it comes to provide strictly investigation content.
I mean, neither Alice McLafferty nor Van Graff would have been able to conspire the way they did without the legion putting them on a cross, since anything that doesn't contribute to the common good is seen as a threat to society for them ; playing both sides in a war for your own interest would mean only one thing : death.
Cass wouldn't have to move her western butt away from the bar to get the justice she's after. She'd just have to hire an investigator to provide proofs of what happened, and the state would take care of the rest. It would be fascinating, story wise, but in terms of gameplay, it would require a little bit of GECK gymnastic, the kind that was impossible to do during NV's short development. I mean, quest markers pointing you to the clues you're supposed to find by yourself ? I'd expect something a little better.
Many usual conflicts would be hard to translate in a legion controlled territory, since it is defined by a very hard, yet super effective justice, the kind we simply never saw in Fallout. Regular players would wonder when they can shoot raiders and snort Jet, and the answer would be : "er, never. Things are different, here. No drugs, no raiders, no weapons in cities."
The only way to provide conflict would be to have the player be part of some sort of resistance trope, like being part of a faction who wants either Vulpes, Lucius or Lanius to be named dictator perpetuus after Caesar's death. Could be fascinating, but that's an entire new game we are talking about.
Or basically Tyranny translated in the Fallout universe. Being part of the Frumentari and provide justice in the way you see fit.
I mean, neither Alice McLafferty nor Van Graff would have been able to conspire the way they did without the legion putting them on a cross, since anything that doesn't contribute to the common good is seen as a threat to society for them ; playing both sides in a war for your own interest would mean only one thing : death.
Cass wouldn't have to move her western butt away from the bar to get the justice she's after. She'd just have to hire an investigator to provide proofs of what happened, and the state would take care of the rest. It would be fascinating, story wise, but in terms of gameplay, it would require a little bit of GECK gymnastic, the kind that was impossible to do during NV's short development. I mean, quest markers pointing you to the clues you're supposed to find by yourself ? I'd expect something a little better.
Many usual conflicts would be hard to translate in a legion controlled territory, since it is defined by a very hard, yet super effective justice, the kind we simply never saw in Fallout. Regular players would wonder when they can shoot raiders and snort Jet, and the answer would be : "er, never. Things are different, here. No drugs, no raiders, no weapons in cities."
The only way to provide conflict would be to have the player be part of some sort of resistance trope, like being part of a faction who wants either Vulpes, Lucius or Lanius to be named dictator perpetuus after Caesar's death. Could be fascinating, but that's an entire new game we are talking about.
Or basically Tyranny translated in the Fallout universe. Being part of the Frumentari and provide justice in the way you see fit.
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The Man From Nowhere
It Wandered In From the Wastes
In New Vegas the vast majority of territory was NCR controlled with the occasional Legion Spy or territory on the edges of the map.
I'd have loved to see more of this type of espionage in Legion territory - such as infiltrating the inside of Legion and sabotaging as an NCR or House agent. Perhaps rescue missions and secret assassinations, planting of bombs in important places and such,
I'd have loved to see more of this type of espionage in Legion territory - such as infiltrating the inside of Legion and sabotaging as an NCR or House agent. Perhaps rescue missions and secret assassinations, planting of bombs in important places and such,
Cobra Commander
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
or enslave people. not with a magic weapon like in FO3, but in another way.
CaptJ
The Rival of Roquefort Hall
@mithrap
Legion territory is largely irrelevant to New Vegas' story. One way that I think to justify adding Legion territory into the game is an alternate campaign. You play as the Prisoner in a heavily rewritten version of Fallout: Van Buren. While Prisoner and Courier will never meet until the Second Battle of Hoover Dam (either as friend or foe), how one finish a quest would affect the other. For example, the Prisoner needs to save Joshua Graham for him to be there in Honest Hearts. Or, the Courier nukes a town which the Prisoner would never be in.
Legion territory is largely irrelevant to New Vegas' story. One way that I think to justify adding Legion territory into the game is an alternate campaign. You play as the Prisoner in a heavily rewritten version of Fallout: Van Buren. While Prisoner and Courier will never meet until the Second Battle of Hoover Dam (either as friend or foe), how one finish a quest would affect the other. For example, the Prisoner needs to save Joshua Graham for him to be there in Honest Hearts. Or, the Courier nukes a town which the Prisoner would never be in.
I don't see that happening. Caesar already picked Lanius and I doubt that Vulpes could qualify due to the Legion valuing strength more than anything. Having both Caesar and Lanius die is the only way for Lucius to become the leader. For Vulpes, it is Caesar, Lanius, and Lucius dying.
Black Angel
Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus
I don't think so. What's New Vegas story in a nutshell? Basically winning the Second Battle of Hoover Dam for whatever major faction you've put your caps for. But why should we let any of this damn faction rule over the Dam? Knowing the good and the bad of each factions is the way to go. We know of the NCR based on playing Fallout 2 (and to an extent, Fallout 1), plus they control like 70% of the Mojave Wasteland. Considering between House or going Independent is a pretty simple matter because they're a scene of the show that literally take place at the center of the stage. But the Legion is a hard one to bet your caps (or rather, easy one to NOT) because of how straightforward they were presented in the game. If we are to ignore all of what should've been, and just judge them for what they are, then they're no different than the Enclave in Fallout 3 (and to a lesser extent, Fallout 2), or those evul guyz from Tenpenny Tower.
Legion territory IS relevant to New Vegas's story, because they will be the major content for players to digest before they can properly decide if they want to put their caps for the Legion or not. All of what managed to get into the game (like Cass and Raul's commentary, and couple other NPCs) is too weak because people just dismiss them. Getting to see bits of Legion's territory would have strongly add to New Vegas's story by making it harder for player to just dismiss the Legion as 'the bad guys'. Hell, even the cut companion would've added more fair perspective of the Legion for the players to consider.
Having said all of that, yeah I agree a new game taking place mainly in the Arizona side of the Colorado River would've been the better way to do it because fuck Gamebryo and Bethesda's stupid ass design decisions.
Apollyon
It Wandered In From the Wastes
I agree. Lack of Legion content is, in my opinion, the biggest flaw of New Vegas.
CaptJ
The Rival of Roquefort Hall
@Black Angel
The same could be said about the NCR territory. While not as safe as Legion territory, the NCR territory was described as safe but boring. What I meant was the story's heart was New Vegas so setting it too far without much to do in between is a bit much. Also, I wanted to have the Prisoner's story be revived in some fashion.
The same could be said about the NCR territory. While not as safe as Legion territory, the NCR territory was described as safe but boring. What I meant was the story's heart was New Vegas so setting it too far without much to do in between is a bit much. Also, I wanted to have the Prisoner's story be revived in some fashion.
Black Angel
Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus
Yet still 70% of the Mojave Wasteland was held by the NCR. Maybe the story of Fallout 1&2 isn't that much relevant to the New Vegas's story, but my main point is that even as we progress New Vegas's story, we got to see significantly much more NCR content but not that of the Legion because NCR territory is basically a war zone for the Legion so it's not surprising that all you see from them is slaving and raping on the Nevada side of Colorado River. And a Legion settlement on Arizona side of Colorado River is not 'too far' from New Vegas. I mean, look at that
It's fucking empty there. One or two marked place held by the Legion with whatever content Obsidian had in mind would've suffice to give more perspective on the faction.
CaptJ
The Rival of Roquefort Hall
The stalemate is necessary for the story and the Legion isn't going to have any of that with Mr. House.
I wouldn't mind the camp itself being bigger because it really needs a lot more things to do there. It just harder to justify adding a large stretch of land just to demonstrate the Legion's safer trade routes. Also, how far would it have to be for there to be a Legion camp not dedicated to the war effort?
Black Angel
Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus
My arguments have nothing to do with the stalemate, and more about the players getting bombarded by NCR content.
Seriously? Never in my previous posts have I ever mentioned stretching the world map to demonstrate Legion's safer trade routes. All I'm saying is a Legion settlement or two on Arizona side of Colorado River would've suffice to add more Legion content, not extending the map eastward to add 3 or 4 more, let alone to demonstrate Legion's safer trade route.
And I'm not talking about Legion camp a la The Fort or even Cottonwood Cove, I'm talking about civilian settlement a la Goodsprings/Primm/Novac, but held by the Legion.
The thing is that the map already contains the "large stretch of land" in the game. Like Black Angel showed in that image, there is both in the east and west a large expanse of land that is just blank, even the land topography on that blank land matches with the locations Obsidian wanted to put there.
Remember, the Legion conquers the territory while they advance, all of the south east blank land mass there would be their territory, just by looking at it, it is around 1/6 of all the accessible map the game contains already, it is big enough to have a few settlements under Legion control.
The empty space in the map is larger than the space where we have Goodsprings, Primm, The Mojave Outpost, Sloan, Nipton and lots of smaller locations. It would be more than enough for three or four Legion controlled settlements without the addition of a new landmass (since it is already there).
CaptJ
The Rival of Roquefort Hall
Then, there is really not much to disagree on. When I said Legion territory, I didn't meant something like the camp but somewhere far from the conflict to illustrate the "safe community." I probably should have worded it better.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
I honestly don't get the hatred for Skyrim and find it inexplicable. I love Skyrim and I've played it through three times already. I'm also buying the Special Edition at midnight tonight (I'd buy it sooner but I'm watching the Shanarra Chronicles with my wife). I love the game, I love the game world, I love the characters, and I love the artistry of the place.
Could it have been better? Yes, but it's still my favorite game of all time.
Edit:
I think Caesar's Legion is an interesting examination of the fact you can have a faction which is entirely plausible while also being thoroughly unsympathetic. There's no end of organizations in real life which practiced slavery, state-based misogyny, and commit mass atrocities like the Legion have.
In Fallout 3, it was complained you couldn't join the Enclave. So they gave you the option of joining the Bad Guys this time around.
What exactly should they do to soften the Legion? They're not a nice bunch but they're entirely believable. I also think their believability would be undermined if they were less vicious, ruthless, and awful.
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CerberusGate
I should save my game in a whole new slot
Oh... you didn't get the original PC version? IIRC getting the vanilla version with all the DLCs nets you the Special Edition for free on PC. At least it did for me (though the SE is a waste of money if you already have the vanilla version, especially if modded).
But the SE has Creation Club and the Oldrym doesn't
.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
Alas, I don't have a computer powerful enough for it. I use laptops.
Prone Squanderer
A bit of a Sillius Soddus.
My comment was more of a soft jab actually.
Also I don't hate it, hate is such a strong word Sheev.
I don't think the Legion should be softened, they should be explored a bit more. I also feel there's more plausibility to the Legion than there is Fallout 3's Enclave.
CaptJ
The Rival of Roquefort Hall
I dislike it for its inexcusablely lacking main quest. I really have no reason to be invested in the story. No reason at all. And the game doesn't even have the decency to end. I really dislike calling it a mediocre game because I don't think of it as a mediocre game. I think of it as a bad game. Obviously, not everything about the game is bad but good icing doesn't redeem a bad cake. Let's take for example a decent cake with small rocks inside it. I could eat around the rocks but I would question why they are there in the first place.
They shouldn't. However, I wonder if letting them recruit female spies would still be too much of a change.
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