Senior Producer: "The Legion is our ... evil group"

I remember both of they are discharged, not deserted.
I wrote the wrong word there, I meant "left" instead of "deserted" I also forgot the "Army" after "NCR". Sorry about that, I was in a hurry (it's what happens when I don't review what I type) :confused:.
What I meant is that it was so bad they left the army and Boone still lives haunted by it:
Courier: It is because of Bitter Springs that you think you've got bad things coming?
Boone: Life has a way of punishing you for the mistakes you make. Big enough mistake, punishment can take a while. Mine's not over.
Courier: Maybe you can make up for your mistakes.
Boone: A murderer who does good deeds is still a murderer. And he'll still get his judgment. I left the NCR when my tour was up. Had enough of war. Decided I was gonna start over.
 
Wow what a delightful foray into the human perspective, we are truly advancing our species here.
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(Posted after reading Brycen posts)
 
The NCR is a mix of NPCs with their karma settings ranging from "neutral" to "good". Not a single active NCR character was set to "evil" or "very evil" in the game.

New California Republic:

Caesar's Legion is a mix of NPCs with their karma settings ranging from "neutral" to "very evil". Not a single active Legion character was set to "good" or "very good" in the game.

Caesar's Legion:

The myth about the game's main warring factions not being ultimately treated as "black and white" has been debunked.

Have a good day.
Let me feed it a bit, using the real words from the developers of the game (also to share these words that most people probably never read before):

Avellone doesn't necessarily consider the NCR sympathetic, but feels their qualities have some value in the world of Fallout. In his opinion, the companion Rose of Sharon Cassidy pretty much sums up NCR's bad side. Caught in the Caravan Wars precipitated by the NCR's expansion, Rose of Sharon Cassidy is a hard luck merchant who is perpetually bogged down in NCR paperwork.

"In many respects, NCR isn’t better than the Legion, and while the Legion has plenty of bad qualities, it's not cartoon bad: it's got some elements about it that NCR could stand to pay attention to," Avellone says. "I wanted the player to at least consider an alternate perspective even if they didn’t agree with it (it makes an antagonist more well-rounded)."

That brings us to the Legions. Ostensibly the villains, Caesar's Legion combines Mad Max with Roman cosplay, adding in a Klingon-like sense of honor for good measure. Originally conceived as a slaver faction for Black Isle's Van Buren, Sawyer took them and made them more of a Roman military society, using Colonel Kurtz from Apocalypse Now as an inspiration.

"I think that [Chris Avellone] and I had talked at various points about really liking these kind of Colonel Kurtz characters, where they wind up in these circumstances where they just sort of descend into this really savage, cargo cult leadership role," Sawyer says. "And so this idea of a follower of the Apocalypse going off into the wilderness, and emerging on the other side as this sort of God king of the tribes of the wasteland? I thought that was a really cool idea."

Your first encounter with the Legion is most likely to take place in the burned out husk of Nipton, where the town's populace has been decapitated, enslaved, or simply crucified.

You're meant to be horrified, but this is where New Vegas begins to toy with your expectations a little bit, Urquhart says. "What I say is, 'I like turns.' I like it when you get exposed to something, and then over time, you start to question your first impression."

As it turns out, Nipton was a town of thieves that trapped innocent passersby, and the Legion was meting out their form of medieval justice. Later, if you decide to meet with Caesar, you find a charismatic and often brilliant man with his own vision for reforming the Mojave Wasteland.

Caesar, interestingly, has neutral karma, which Sawyer says isn't an oversight on his part. "My reasoning is that his morality is so alien to everyone else, that it's just hard to even put it on the same axis as other people, because he's just thinking about it in a completely different way."

Sawyer is not inclined to judge whether you're supposed to sympathize with Caesar or not. His only goal is to offer rich, multi-dimensional factions with their own virtues and flaws, and let players choose for themselves. One of the chief pleasures of Fallout: New Vegas—and perhaps one of the biggest reasons that it has endured to this point-is moving between the main factions, working with and against them, and eventually choosing who you want to side with for the Battle of the Hoover Dam... if you side with anyone at all.

"A very common thing that I see is people who are like, 'I support the NCR,' and then they get to Colonel Moore and a few other people, and they're like, 'What about Mr. House?,'" Sawyer says. "And then they get to Mr. House, and then he's destroying The Brotherhood, and they're like, 'Independent New Vegas, it is!' So the mechanics needed to be robust enough to handle this swaying of the player, and we needed to have mechanics in there that allow you to remove negative reputation."
 
@Risewild
Even with all that, it is pretty hard to see the Legion as anything more than an evil faction. I'm thinking of real life analogue and it is pretty hard to imagine it as anything but scum of the Earth.
 
@Risewild
Even with all that, it is pretty hard to see the Legion as anything more than an evil faction. I'm thinking of real life analogue and it is pretty hard to imagine it as anything but scum of the Earth.

We don't live in a post-nuclear apocalypse world though. One character (a trader, I forget his name) says that Legion territory is safe, there's no threat of raiders and he is free to trade without heavy taxation, so long as he doesn't violate Legion rules on drugs and alcohol.
 
One character (a trader, I forget his name) says that Legion territory is safe, there's no threat of raiders and he is free to trade without heavy taxation, so long as he doesn't violate Legion rules on drugs and alcohol.
That was at the cost of countless lives; and besides, I doubt that it going to last.
We don't live in a post-nuclear apocalypse world though.
It been like 200 years and the real world versions will never leave us. Even if they are destroyed, there will always be others to take their place and not doing anything would make things fester. War isn't something can be removed from humanity but we can at least stop making excuses for warlord cults. When Caesar eventually dies, the Legion would fracture to a bunch of raiders groups undoing the little good that they did. Caesar's speech isn't that compelling. To me, it is similar to the Master (minus the part about his plan being doom from the start).

The only way that I see the MC joining the Legion is being part of it from the beginning. I imagine a trait that gives the Courier a Legion background.
 
That was at the cost of countless lives; and besides, I doubt that it going to last.

The same could be said of any of the factions.

It been like 200 years and the real world versions will never leave us. Even if they are destroyed, there will always be others to take their place and not doing anything would make things fester. War isn't something can be removed from humanity but we can at least stop making excuses for warlord cults. When Caesar eventually dies, the Legion would fracture to a bunch of raiders groups undoing the little good that they did. Caesar's speech isn't that compelling. To me, it is similar to the Master (minus the part about his plan being doom from the start).

The only way that I see the MC joining the Legion is being part of it from the beginning. I imagine a trait that gives the Courier a Legion background.

The Legion was unfortunately underdeveloped. I feel if we were able to see more of Legion society, rather than just its fighting force, we'd get a better idea of what the Legion truly is and perhaps have more of a reason for the Courier to join them.

I have only sided with the Legion once, as I do feel other options are better. I don't dismiss the Legion as just "the bad guys" though. They are brutal and oppressive, but it's not done for shits and giggles.
 
@Risewild
Even with all that, it is pretty hard to see the Legion as anything more than an evil faction. I'm thinking of real life analogue and it is pretty hard to imagine it as anything but scum of the Earth.
From the same article:
Obsidian ultimately managed to push Fallout: New Vegas out in 18 months. It fit much of Obsidian's original vision; but as with every triple-A game, cuts had to be made.

The biggest casualty, Sawyer says, were the settlements east of the Colorado River. This area was meant to contain three Legion locations filled with quests and content, and would have ultimately had a very different vibe from New Vegas proper.

Sawyer regrets the cuts, "I think a lot of people have said, in addition to the Legion being just repulsive, they didn't have content to redeem them as a faction. Some people talk to Caesar, and they're like, 'Caesar is interesting. Crazy, but interesting. But the faction itself just seems like misogynistic psychos.' And there's nothing to really change that perception."

Ulysses was another casualty in the main game. Conceived by Chris Avellone, he would have been a companion sympathetic to the Legion. But the character just got too big, Sawyer says. "That character just became enormous. I mean, literally, we just couldn't fit in the game. I can't remember how many lines he was, but he was just gargantuan, and editing him would have been too hard. So that's when we decided like, 'Okay, we're going to save this for later.'"
 
The same could be said of any of the factions.
Not really and I don't think that the Legion is going to last as half as long as something like the NCR.
I don't dismiss the Legion as just "the bad guys" though. They are brutal and oppressive, but it's not done for shits and giggles.
That is a pretty low bar. This is what I dislike about moral relativity. One standard for one group and another standard for another group simply because of expectations. While I do agree that the Legion really got shafted by time constraints, I really doubt that it would really change the minds of anyone that was already paying attention. Seriously all the explanations that keep hearing justifying the Legion needed to get into fanfic and mental gymnastic levels. Also, the Legion were the first to cast the proverbial radioactive stone making them no better than the pre-war factions.
 
Not really and I don't think that the Legion is going to last as half as long as something like the NCR.
The NCR might last, but the direction they're headed to isn't going to improve their society's life quality. From the ending slides alone, we know the small folks pretty much get by as described by Followers of the Apocalypse and the Kings reconciled with NCR, but the upper echelons are getting what they want. Add to that, genuinely good and competent personnel like Hanlon retiring, means there's just less and less good things in NCR's government, which would bound to affect the folks down below. They're more like a dying flame, waiting for the candlestick to expire.
 
Not really and I don't think that the Legion is going to last as half as long as something like the NCR.

Neither do I, but it doesn't mean the NCR will last forever. The same with Mr House, once he dies what will eventually happen to Vegas?

Besides, how many of its troops has the NCR sacrificed? How many Brotherhood are killed when siding with Mr House? There's also bloodshed when the Courier takes control of the Strip. None of the factions' hands are clean.

That is a pretty low bar. This is what I dislike about moral relativity. One standard for one group and another standard for another group simply because of expectations. While I do agree that the Legion really got shafted by time constraints, I really doubt that it would really change the minds of anyone that was already paying attention. Seriously all the explanations that keep hearing justifying the Legion needed to get into fanfic and mental gymnastic levels. Also, the Legion were the first to cast the proverbial radioactive stone making them no better than the pre-war factions.

All I am saying is there's more to the Legion than "We're evil ha ha ha!".
 
*sigh* What do you think she meant by "We're property. If you're too young or too old, the men usually leave you alone. Usually."? This dialogue was a reply to the Courier's question, "How are the women treated around here?". It means what it means, that Siri acknowledge all the reputation of the Legion treating women as a property, mainly for breeding even if that's by way of force and rape. Then she added to it that 'If you're too young or too old, usually you'll be left alone', as in they will not beat and/or rape you if you're too young. It only give some slight implication that the Legion 'might' also rape children and elder, but they usually don't.
So... I am right then, what are you even arguing right now?

Again, remember that Caesar punish homosexuality with death. What do you think he will do to those who's found committing an atrocity such as child-rape?
Probably nothing seeing how he considers women property and breeders. If he is willing to use boys as suicide bombers and as soldiers and if he is okay with systematic rape for procreation why would he care? At one point they mention that the girl of a family they enslaved is the only slvageable one because she is good looking...

Also, Walp, you haven't elaborated on your mention of the little girl on the Legion's camp. Did you meant Melody? The girl who asked you to retrieve her teddy bear?

Yes, she is kept on the same rags as the others, one of the Legionaries even seems fixated on her and Siri comments on how they will rape the female slaves.

Again, I ask, did their enemy ever mentioned to you that the Legion committed child-rape? Hell, even going as far as claiming that it's something tolerated by Caesar?

Again, they are okay with rape and they are okay with child soldiers and even child suicide bombers. Why are you under the impression that the legion has some kind of moral fiber? They embrace their own brutality to instill fear and keep order. They aren't good guys and they will sink to any depth for victory.

Yeah, so? I wouldn't deny that. But my question remains: is it true that 'They rape children.', like you claimed?
Everything points that the Legion doesn't treat children as anything other than smaller adults. Please show us the part where Caesar states that they must protect the children at all costs.
 
Ulysses was another casualty in the main game. Conceived by Chris Avellone, he would have been a companion sympathetic to the Legion. But the character just got too big, Sawyer says. "That character just became enormous. I mean, literally, we just couldn't fit in the game. I can't remember how many lines he was, but he was just gargantuan, and editing him would have been too hard. So that's when we decided like, 'Okay, we're going to save this for later.'"

Interesting. I already knew that, Ulysses is one of the cards in the deck with the characters, but I never stopped to think that if he was in the game, Lonesome Road would never have existed. I wonder what the idea would be for a 4 DLC. Anyway, the limited time hurt the Legion, but helped interconnect the 4 dlcs organically, using Ulysses.
 
So... I am right then, what are you even arguing right now?
You're saying that quote is a proof that the Legion rapes children. It's not. Only a very slight hint to what transpires and the 'usually' means it's a rare occasion that the Legion would rape children. So the phrase, "They (the Legion) rapes children." is not exactly true.

Probably nothing seeing how he considers women property and breeders. If he is willing to use boys as suicide bombers and as soldiers and if he is okay with systematic rape for procreation why would he care? At one point they mention that the girl of a family they enslaved is the only slvageable one because she is good looking...
He was a former member of the Followers of the Apocalypse. Obviously he would have some basic education to know immature female body wouldn't fit to breed. It's far too much of a stretch to say they 'rape children' because they also use boys as suicide bombers and soldiers. And of course he would care because if he sees homosexuality as being punishable by death, that means he sees it as an abnormal sexual orientation, which is what pedophilia is.

Saying that the girl of a family is the only salvageable one because she's good looking doesn't mean he condone child rape, but means that the girl would grow up to be a women perfectly fit to breed good men.

Yes, she is kept on the same rags as the others, one of the Legionaries even seems fixated on her and Siri comments on how they will rape the female slaves.
Antony took her teddy bear to bully her, and even commented how it's a stupid thing to do when you killed his hounds. That doesn't mean he raped or will rape Melody, nor prove that the phrase, "They (the Legion) rape children." as true.

Again, they are okay with rape and they are okay with child soldiers and even child suicide bombers. Why are you under the impression that the legion has some kind of moral fiber? They embrace their own brutality to instill fear and keep order. They aren't good guys and they will sink to any depth for victory.
They punish homosexuality for fuck sake. That means they drew a line that mustn't be crossed when it comes to things like that. I'm not under an impression that they have some kind of moral fiber nor that they're the good guys, all I'm asking for is actual proof that "they rape children". So far, only Siri's dialogue is somewhat a viable hint to that, and even then you'd have to scrutinize it like it's some kind of heavily cryptic message. And no, child soldier and child suicide bombers doesn't prove that the phrase, "They (the Legion) rape children." to be true.

Everything points that the Legion doesn't treat children as anything other than smaller adults. Please show us the part where Caesar states that they must protect the children at all costs.
No, they don't treat children as anything other than smaller adults (hence, the child soldier and child suicide bomber), nor have I any statement from Caesar that they must protect the children at all costs. But you nor Cobra Commander had given me any example or statement to prove the phrase, "They rape children." So far, only an implication which can only be gained from scrutinizing one line of Siri's dialogue. Not to mention you, Walp, outright misunderstood said line by saying it means the opposite of what it means.
 
You are aware most women become fertile at 13 right? They don't need to be "adults" to breed, ever heard of teen pregnancies? With how ruthlessly utilitarian the Legion is with everything else do you think they would bother to wait until they reach legal age in our culture before starting to rape someone to breed soldiers?

Also Caesar is implied to be gay too through his endings where you sell Arcade to him. His punishment of homosexuality probably comes more from trying too hard to hide in the closet, maybe even appeasing to Joshua Graham's more overt religious bias or because it would directly impede breeding. Also Caesar is mimicking a culture where child wives were normal.

You don't really need to look too hard into Siri's dialogue, or the guard's dialogue, or the slaves in the camp, or the legionaries dialogue to conclude that they do awful shit like that, you are just being dense on propouse on the face of everything. We are just using inductive reasoning with elements present both in dialogue and in the game world in game to come to a safe assumption of the kind of shit they do, you on the other hand demand solid proof while offering none and ignoring everything because it's not a direct statement.
 
None of the factions' hands are clean.
I never said that. What I meant was that FO:NV is not so much grey or "black & white" but it is more like black & grey. The Legion being really bad really helps the story. The stalemate is a result of the Legion being viewed as a common foe or a greater evil. I don't actually think that making the Legion "less evil" would improve the story. I don't believe that simply following little writing tips automatically makes a better story. There are still idiots that think that the civil war in Skyrim is superior just because it is hard to care about either side.

And of course he would care because if he sees homosexuality as being punishable by death, that means he sees it as an abnormal sexual orientation, which is what pedophilia is.
I don't think that the Legion punishing homosexuality necessarily means that the Legion is against child molestation. There are many societies that accept child marriages yet punish homosexuality. It doesn't mean that Legion rapes children or Caesar approves of it but it isn't based on principles.
 
What the Legion needed was more exposure to their results. Not so much being toned down (altho I would very much prefer a change of attire, the Football gear stuff doesn't really fit them, would've made more sense to have them use tanned hide from mutated animals and crude armor molded from scrap, like some of the Burned men). We needed them to make a better case for their brutality, show that they get things done. This wouldn't make you like them more? Well that's kind of the point, every player weighs how much they value order over anything else. If you don't feel like helping a tyranical regime take control of the region it's fine but you would at least see that they actually show results compared to the corrupt and incompetent but nicer NCR.
 
There are still idiots that think that the civil war in Skyrim is superior just because it is hard to care about either side.

Superior? IIRC it doesn't actually make much difference beyond cosmetic and some dialogue. How does that make it-

Actually I'm asking a really stupid question aren't I?
 
Actually I'm asking a really stupid question aren't I?
Yes. I'm convinced that anyone who likes Skyrim either never really finished Skyrim or never really played any other RPG (or played any other RPG long enough). People's argument is that the conflict in Skyrim is "greyer" but they seem to mistaken apathy for indecisiveness.
 
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