Shamus Young talks Fallout 3

[Akratus]

It takes intelligence to see the mistakes we make, as a species. But it takes more intelligence to see our potential, and to discern those who make an effort to learn from those mistakes. At least, that's my view.

 

[Tagaziel]

Crni, I am well aware of the Milgram experiment. However, note that it doesn't exploit our innate aggression, but our innate tendency to follow figures of authority, to instinctively place ourselves in a hierarchy and follow it.

Besides, why assume the common man is dishonest? Do you assume that the shopkeeper you buy your groceries from, the postman who delivers your letters, the bus driver that drives you and other people etc. are all dishonest people that are out to get you? While there are singular instances of people being liar and cheats, more of them are decent, honest folks.

This is reflected by statistics. Crime is the exception, rather than the rule, even in the United States with its thousands of prisoners.

Note that this doesn't say anything about personality. People can be assholes and remain the most loyal, fierce friends one can dream of. And conversely, people who are polite and nice can also be the worst backstabbing pricks you've ever seen in your life.

Last, violence. Here it is hard to say anything concrete, as there is no way to reliably separate our innate tendencies as a species from the way our culture shapes us. Is our culture violent because we are violent, or are we violent because our culture is violent?

 

[gumbarrel]

So Fallout 3 won the award because of its high quality writing I guess ... (or I get you wrong no clue).

*facepalm* You sure as hell get me wrong.

Fallout 3 got the award because it was the most popular game there. And a large number of people probably thought that it had a pretty good writing compared (key word here, compared to other shit) to some other games they've played that year. Not everyone has played your obscure indie games with oh-so-sophisticated writing, you know.

And hell, it's not like these awards even matter at all. The Vast majority of people don't give a shit what game got what award. Oh, they will mention the fact when they get in to their little fanboy rants, just so they can win an argument, but in reality, most give two shits.

So that doesn't exist?

That mentality that you describe, the "OMG DIS GAYM HAS SHIT GRAFIX SO IT HAS HIT STORI" doesn't exist, really. I am sure that there are people who don't give a shit about the story and like looking at pretty shader effects, but even those know very well, that graphics don't really matter, when we are talking specifically about a writing award.

As I said, you are complaining about nothing. You've got your own narrative going on.

people which have literaly lived decades next to each other more or less peacefully started to sudenly murder each other when the war started. All because one of them was a croat and the other a serb.

It's not like every serb wanted to kill every croat.

 

[Crni Vuk]

ah got you now. Yeah well not among gamers, but as far as what some major publishers and developers think of their audience at least. Hence this high focus with new games on action rather then diversive gameplay. Which is why the new Lara Croft game is so close to Just Cause or even better examples, a lot of games follow the footsteps of Call of Duty. Survival Horror is dead. Stealth Shooters (like Splinter Cell 1) dead and so on. Its either about action or action and stealth or action and roleplaying or action and what-do-I-know. So there is in my eyes definitely some tedency in that direction. Publishers believe their audience is simply to dump to find the direction. On maps where you have literaly only one way to go ... (diablo 3 got "quest markers" ... I mean wtf. if there is an more linear game out there then I have not found it yet).

It's not like every serb wanted to kill every croat.

Dude I am a serb. I know my people. And it was very similar on the other side of the fence. People went bat shit crazy during the civil war in Yugoslavia. Was it everywhere like that? No, sure not. But there, where you had the "war" and armies marching around, it was pure hell. Just ask the people that spend some time in the concentration camps the serbians had like omarska, every fucking serb should feel ashamed and actually apologize for it not because everyone is guility but because they do fucking nothing to actually acknowledge it. Revisionism is such an great thing isnt it. And you can believe one thing. After the war, there have not been many croats left in Serbia. And who could blame them for moving away.

Besides, why assume the common man is dishonest? Do you assume that the shopkeeper you buy your groceries from, the postman who delivers your letters, the bus driver that drives you and other people etc. are all dishonest people that are out to get you? While there are singular instances of people being liar and cheats, more of them are decent, honest folks.

With people like my bus driver or the baker where I buy my buns? Sure not. I am not some paranoid lunatic.

But with people I dont know in general? Yes. Seriously, the first thing I think when someone is aproaching my door step with the intention to sell something "how does he want to trick me now in to his contract".

And the more money is involved in something the more cautious I am. Obviously. You cant tell me you do EVERYTHING on trust and not with security in mind. There are so many ways out there how you can lose money, how some can cheat on you, trick you in to stupid contracts etc. Do I expect from every stranger to screw me? Hell no! But, and this is a fact, given the chance a lot of people do wrong things, depending on the situation. Simply because its so "easy" to do the wrong thing compared to the "right" decision. Like not to sell something to your customers that is of high quality instead of simply telling them that it is.

I mean hell ... didnt you had recently some issues with an company? About electricity or what ever. There are countless examples of our every day life where we had to deal with things that are either ilegal or barely legal.

I say, keeping an eye open and expecting the worst but hoping for the best is the way to go. As far as strangers go. You would not believe that maybe, but I am trying to be positive and friendly to everyone. But I am not naive. Thats not how the world works. We do live in an world and society where it is simply easier to do something wrong. Its easier to beat your kidz instead of raising them, its easier to steal something instead of earning it, easier to run away instead of working the problems in your relationship out and so on.

 

[Tagaziel]

Skepticism is good and natural. This ensures that both parties held each other up to the same standard and demand quality.

Don't mistake my point as demanding total, uncritical trust, Crni. I merely point out that humans are naturally predisposed towards order and there is no reason to suspect that every person is a Killer, Rapist, and Thief out to get you.

 

[Crni Vuk]

of course, I guess at the end of the day you both mopo and you have fair points after all.

 

[gumbarrel]

Dude I am a serb. I know my people. And it was very similar on the other side of the fence.

Oh, so you were pluged in to the a hive mind and you knew exactly what the thoughts and intentions of every single serb were? Get a grip. How old were you back then anyway?

But with people I dont know in general? Yes. Seriously, the first thing I think when someone is aproaching my door step with the intention to sell something "how does he want to trick me now in to his contract".

"I am not a paranoid lunatic" and then you say this? If this is seriously true, then this is more of a problem with YOU, not society in general. And you seriously need to deal with this problem.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Dude I am a serb. I know my people. And it was very similar on the other side of the fence.

Oh, so you were pluged in to the a hive mind and you knew exactly what the thoughts and intentions of every single serb were? Get a grip. How old were you back then anyway?

If you are not a serbian, then I think I can claim to know a we bit more about "my" people then you do. No offense meant though. I have a lot of relatives there, as my family is pretty big, some have been fighting even in the civil war. What I am talking about here isnt all of the people beeing guility about the war crimes or killing. It is about how the Serbians see the war, its cause and the effects. A large part of the world sees Serbia as the reason, not only becaues of the civil war but as far as Kosovo goes as well. I am not stupid. I know its more then just black and white. I remember the news about Racak and despite of US claims there might have been more behind this then what the officials said, so far that it might be that most if not all of it was fabricated to make it look like an massacre by serbians on albans. The report by an finnish team shows it some new light on it. Though the situation remains still unclear even today.

What disturbs me when I am comparing Serbia and Germany which had somehow to deal with its past, is the revisionism in Serbia and that it actually doesnt really happen. There is no real try to investigate the whole situation in Yugoslavia from its historical context, in an unbiased manner. Imagine people in Germany would believe the US, Russians (or Soviets to be more clear) would have been all the cause behind WW2. There is simply no real debate. New generations dont care and the old ones simply blame the other side as like Serbia was somehow innocent. Any serious try to review the past does not happen in Serbia. And that is what actually makes me ashamed of my own people and why I see my self more as German then Serbia today.

 

[Eumesmopo]

Again, circular logic. Societies exist because they have methods to punish individuals. They have those methods ecause they exist.

I explained to you why is not circular logic back then when I mentioned one of the many reasons why societies can take decisions that contradict the direct desires of all individuals. The only thing going circular here is our conversation.

Larger human societies emerged voluntarily, as peope bound together for common good, sacrificing a portion of their freedom in exchange for mutual protection and benefit. What you say is nonsensical, as it precludes formation of society in the first place.

In case my position isn't clear: Society is a very different thing from individuals. I believe that individuals are the ones who are the potential full-time douches, society; on the other hand, is to a extent independant from the individual for it opperates on a different order. And society, with it's sets of rules and norms, protects individuals from one another.

You seem to be convinced that by the virtue of existing, the government is some kind of magical stabilizing force that preventspeople from degenerating into a pack of hyenas fighting over a corpse.

I don't. What I do believe is that laws, cops and jails keep the order, not through magic, but through a working justice system.

Even in Somalia, it was factions warring, not the common people...

Where do these "factions" recruit their croonies from? What is their source of "uncommom" people?

Not really. The key problem with your argument is that thievery, murder, and raping are default human behaviour. They aren't. I can't speak for you of course, but people I meet aren't thieves, murderers, and rapists only looking how to violate me and others. They are perfectly sane people who want to live a good life.

Who's using circular logic now?

This is because humans are social animals, suited towards living in packs. while there will always be outsiders breaking the rules, the vast majority of humans are predisposed towards living together, forming societies for the common benefit.

Being "evil" does not necessarily cause social or biological failure for a human. In fact, folks with the "dark triad" personality tend to be quite effective breeders. For example: Geneticists found out that Ghenghis Khan has over a dozen million descendants.

Last, your argumentation is self defeating, as what benefit would a thief, murderer, and rapist have in turning his back to another thief, murderer, and rapist?

Money, fun, sex, lulz and the satisfaction of their repressed ids.

Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Human culture and morality is irrelevant to the topic of humans as social animals.

Wat

You're constantly ignoring the instinctual avoidance of death present in animals, including humans. This instinct means that a majority of humans will avoid destructive behaviour (killing, raping, and stealing), because it is detrimental to their survival.

Killing, raping and stealing can be very beneficial for a individual in the biological point of view, such actions not only it can protect one from enemies, but also give him access to extra resources, inflict respect through fear in others, mitigate excarcity and even spread his genes onward. Obviosly this is very damaging for any society in which such individual is present, but then again; that's the difference between individuals and societies that I had mentioned before.

Except it is not an academic textbook...

Neither is our conversation here. Will you abdicate your authority now?

The notion of anti-credentialism in your writing is interesting, as it seems you're equating your pet theories with works of established academicians.

I mentioned the work of a renowned forensic psychiatrist (Robert Simon) which explains with many details the reasons why the minds of extremally violent criminals present little difference from the minds of pretty much everyone else. Have you put his work as superior to your own theories about human nature?

And now you're moving the goalposts, demanding that I account for every single aspect of history?

I didn't move the goalposts. I'm just demanding from you the kind of holism you're demanding from me.

No, human history begins with the appearance of first proto hominids.

If your definitiong of history is as simple as "the past" and not the discipline concerned with constructing coherent accounts of past cultures based on written and oral records. Yeah, right.

While indeed, our knowledge of the time is limited due to a lack of writing, it is by no means non-existent. Archeological excavations and analysis of artifacts created by humans show voluntary establishments of order.

There is a very big difference between History and Archeology. Archeology can advance to the point where it can answer questions such as: "Did these guys honor their words?"

Besides. If you take out this "voluntary" part (which archeology can't really tell) there is nothing about this "establishments of order" thing which favors your view rather than mine.

So?

It pushes us back into that "it's hidden off the map" cliché.

Yes, because (surprise) some factions do lay low. The Enclave was only known due to their eyebots, otherwise it would've been completely new to the inhabitants of the wasteland.

Enclave's presence is hidden because the plot demands so, before anything else.

 

[mobucks]

I'm never wrong either.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Killing, raping and stealing can be very beneficial for a individual in the biological point of view, such actions not only it can protect one from enemies, but also give him access to extra resources, inflict respect through fear in others, mitigate excarcity and even spread his genes onward. Obviosly this is very damaging for any society in which such individual is present, but then again; that's the difference between individuals and societies that I had mentioned before.

You know the Chimpanzee is very close to us, from the genetics. In some cases the genetic differences between males and females is bigger then the difference between us and the chimp. Of course the differences we are talking about are not the same pair of genes. But still.

And I saw once a report where they showed the behavior of chimps, sometimes one group of chimps goes on a crusade on a different group, even if there is no real reason for it (at least not as far the scientists knew). This is an rare event but it happens. The same reason why chimps sometimes eat meat even though they have no reason to do so.

I guess the urge for violance exists for many species.

 

[gumbarrel]

I'm never wrong either.

This is just wrong.

You know the Chimpanzee is very close to us, from the genetics.

We are also "very close" with cats and cows, when it comes to genetics.

The same reason why chimps sometimes eat meat even though they have no reason to do so.

I guess the urge for violance exists for many species

Did you know, that humans often play on these weird machines called "PeeSees" and "konsols", even though they have no reason to? I guess the urge for useless shit exist for many species.

 

[Crni Vuk]

and your point is?

 

[GTRichey]

These videos are like 3 years old. And he did like the game overall, he thought that the story was garbage, though.

Both the video and the post are from 2 days ago and in the post and comments he says that the game has fundamental flaws on almost all levels so... what are you talking about?

These are being reposted because the host for the series took them all down for some reason or another. So the playthrough was done 3 years ago and is now being rereleased on youtube so that they're available once again.

 

[WorstUsernameEver]

No, these videos are reposts. They originally hosted these on Viddler, but they got taken down, thanks to their new bullshit service (you have to pay them for what YouTube can give you for free). Back then he said (and this should be somewhere in that Let's PLay, as far as I remember) that overall he liked the game, despite the writing. BUt I guess he has grown more negative towards it since then.

These are being reposted because the host for the series took them all down for some reason or another. So the playthrough was done 3 years ago and is now being rereleased on youtube so that they're available once again.

Apologies then. Brother None passed me the videos to post and neither of us knew they were reposts.

 

[Brother None]

Yip, my bad.

Don't think it really matters, seems like it was new to most people here.

 

[Per]

Now someone searching the News forum for "shamus" and looking at the threads that pop up won't get the impression his final verdict of the game was "good but flawed".

 

[WorstUsernameEver]

Now someone searching the News forum for "shamus" and looking at the threads that pop up won't get the impression his final verdict of the game was "good but flawed".

The horror! The horror!