SiCKO - See it today - Bring tissues and your passport?

SuAside said:
Maphusio said:
I don't believe his goal was to say Europe is the Holly Grail, just that its current health care plan and some of its ideals are much better than the US's. That over there it is WE the people, while in America its I, the individual, screw the rest.
the problem is that he only highlights the good sides. the european system is flawed, but they didn't show any of it.

I agree that it is flawed. It is however, a far better system than the current health care system in the USA. I can not abide by the horrors of the current health care system. When I conceive what I would do if my child was to come down with a horrible illness and I could not save my child's life because I did not have the funds to do so... How could I live with myself? Not to mention the sheer range that I would feel... I would most likely wind up doing something rather rash.


xdarkyrex said:
[PCE said:
el_Prez]
How much have you been taxed in your life? Probably not enough to fill up GW's Navigator with premium unleaded.

Give it time.

The point is that I stand by and love the ideals of this country, but god damn have they been twisted from their original meanings.

Maybe it'd do the rest of the Americans some good to stop thinking of "America VS the world" and starting thinking of "America + the world"

Exactly xdarkyrex, compassion over fear. I'm tired of being afraid when I know I don't need to be. Yet the same crap is on TV, im being saturated with "Your neighbor is a terrorist or rapist." "Lock your homes at night to keep the psycho killers at bay." "You had better have a gun with you 24/7, how else are you going to protect yourself?"

I want to live and love. Not experience derivatives of fear... Socialized medical is NOT perfect, in many countries its a huge drain on their resources... It CAN be made to work in the USA and it IS a far cry better than what we have today. With any luck one of the democratic front runners will win the presidency and start working on our problems on our own soil so we can stop living in a constant state of fear. Hopefully that person will actually reflect the will of WE the people rather than the pockets of cooperate interests... If that comes to pass and this compassionate soul is not murdered in cold blood like the rest... I would probably die of joy.

Kharn, you are spot on about why the USA was attacked. I know I will go off topic here but you struck a memory... The day that 9/11 happened I asked everyone I ran into that said, "Lets kill some of those f'ing sand niggers!" if they had seriously asked the question. WHY? ...Why were we attacked? Or WHO stood to gain?

The general consensus seemed to be, "Tha teroris attaqkd alll us bekows we like bein free." -Or something to that extent.

Imagine my complete astonishment and sense of terror when a huge portion the populous in my community and country started shouting things like, "Kill the rag heads!" "God bless America!" "These colors don't run.". With American flags waving about and patriotic (or nationalism) bumper stickers on 2 out of 3 cars... It was more horrifying than when Bush declared war on Iraq. I remember being nearly run out of town for listening to music, in another language... Seriously, this older guy that should have known better leaned in my window, turned off the stereo and said we don't like that kind of crap. When I expressed my outrage he asked me to get out of the car, that he had friends die in the 9/11 attacks... I guess the German and Arabic language sound almost identical to the ignorant ear.
 
Well why don't you just get your passport ready like your post topic suggests and take a long trip away from my country.

Me? I'll keep my .45 by my bedside, my Insurance card in my wallet and a smile on my face. Great day to be an American.
 
[PCE said:
el_Prez]Well why don't you just get your passport ready like your post topic suggests and take a long trip away from my country.

Me? I'll keep my .45 by my bedside, my Insurance card in my wallet and a smile on my face. Great day to be an American.

You sure have made it a point to thumb your silver spoon at the rest of us in this thread. The problem there is that is not what this country is about. That was exactly the point of this film.

"WE"

We, is the message that Michael Moore is stressing. We were founded on the belief that the "we the people" are the power behind the government not the individuals in power. As sad and despicable as it is, we in have many ways become what we striven against.

Go to another country you say? I thought these colors don't run? It was joke and a statement. I would never leave unless the government was attempting to arrest or kill me. Even then, I would fight for eternity.

I am an American and will be one even after I depart this world . No power but my own can stop that. I'm here to speak my mind in favor of bettering my community and country. I hate to sound like fanboi but I'll run another quote.

"The men who create power make an indispensable contribution to the Nation's greatness, but the men who question power make a contribution just as indispensable, especially when that questioning is disinterested, for they determine whether we use power or power uses us."
 
Many americans like to think that their country's world status per definition means they have the highest living standard. In many ways they do, but certainly not in the ways of health care and education. Sure, you can get the best of both in America - if you have the cash to pay for it. You don't have to look further than New Orleans to see what happens when poor people need help in the US.

While in EU socialist countries at least everyone gets the same crap healthcare and eduction. :roll:
 
[PCE said:
el_Prez]Me? I'll keep my .45 by my bedside, my Insurance card in my wallet and a smile on my face. Great day to be an American.
if you're to believe the documentary, your insurance card sure aint worth much once you actually need it. ;)
 
May I just say that I love the fact that I was born and raised in socialized Sweden. Everybody pays a massive amount of taxes so that everybody gets the chance to go for a higher education, travel abroad, medical help when "needed" (waiting times can be a let down). People hate to pay this much in taxes, but in fact they are just paying back for their education and stuff like that. And still, most people live like kings (some really needs to see other countries standards to realise this though..).

I did not believe in socialism long ago. But the mixture of socialism and right wing in Sweden has been great for the country. Everybody get's the chance to do something. Then it is up to every individual to take that step. So if you think that the taxes are high, educate yourself. That way you'll get the most out of it.

Just might add (since there's some swedes that might not feel this way on this forum);
The level of bureaucracy in Sweden is horrible. All the things that the government once handled works horribly. But at least it's getting better with time. You still can't deny the fact that Sweden is a great country to be born in.

We've got electricity, heating, "unlimited" water supply (hot and cold), frickin' 100 mbit broadband cables into half of swedens homes and we pay shit for it. Seriously. I'm longing for several of those things right now. (I am studying abroad. Paying 0 in semester fees. Since I'm swedish, I get a medical insurance that covers everything absolutely free of charge by the government.)

So, to summarize; I gladly pay a fair amount of taxes to my brethren so that they can get a decent education and feel safe, just like I'm doing.

Alright. That's my contribution to the propaganda train.
 
[PCE said:
el_Prez]
George Orwell said:
WAR IS PEACE

George Orwell said:
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

[PCE said:
el_Prez]
firstplane.jpg

It seems your insurance doesn't cover ImageShack :D
 
Maybe it is a too "socialist" concept for some "free minded" US citizens, but I like this concept.

Being free is a misconcept anyway. Because you're free, the government is forced to keep instilling fear on it's citizens: Fear of terrorists, killers, rapers, child molesters, ... What should you do to counter it? Support the war, support being a policed nation - or, give up your freedom to feel somewhat more "safe".

You may be able to get medical insurance, but not everyone is that lucky. Imagine a "normal" family: Man, woman and 2 kids. Then the man dies - train accident. The wife is unable to pay for insurance for everyone. Then one of the kids gets an acute illness, and needs expensive medical treatment - these situations can push your average, patriotic, law-abiding model family on the verge of bankruptcy.

Indeed, as one of my Northern neighbours stated, the European states aren't model examples. We also have bureacratic idiocies. It is just a fact that a small country, which is almost the size of the biggest US cities (+ surrounding precincts), is much easier to manage.

Still, I like the fact that my possibilities are not slowed/dumbed down by medical, educational or professional situations, over which I mostly have NO control.
We have "free" education (ok, it costs, but the allowance level for a scholarship is very low), "free" medical treatment (almost 70% of treatment/meds is paid back by taxes), I get a supporting wage when I lose my job until I find a new one (with limit, of course), our medical system is controlled (allowing only working, tested meds to enter the system), ... - this gives everyone equal opportunity to tackle "life".

The advantage? No one really has the right to say he is "disadvantaged", by belonging to some minority / having low educated parents / other cultural background / ...
I believe this roots out the creating of ghetto's and disadvantaged groups of people, who get in a vicious circle of not being able to get an income, and resort to desperate measures.

Getting insurance (car/fire/...) is obligated by law. This way, if someone crashes into your car, he doesn't run or act up - you fill in a form with in, and all is handled by some company.

We have no concept of ghetto's (or at least to a minimal content), no trailer parks with permanent inhabitants, few hobo's, and unemployment is very low. We don't live in fear, we don't shear a massive vision of the world, but are all able to find our own truths in life.
I'm willing to pay for this.

I think the US offers lots of opportunities for those with ambition, willing to work hard to build up a good life. You have to be smart enough to get some permanent healthcare/insurance solutions, to tackle the education system, and bold enough to make some really though decisions.
This is far more rewarding for the entrepreneurs and smart ones - the opposite side, is that is a real drag for your average Joe, who finds himself starting or leading his life with inadequate tools or background.

I am willing to pay to smarten my peers, to root out the dumb and ignorant. I believe that educating and insuring your peers strengthens your nation.

Moore may have a intrusive and shocking way of bringing his message. This may result from the thought that it is the only way of reaching the masses...
 
Chronus said:
Many americans like to think that their country's world status per definition means they have the highest living standard. In many ways they do, but certainly not in the ways of health care and education. Sure, you can get the best of both in America - if you have the cash to pay for it.

Welcome to capatalism.

It seems your insurance doesn't cover ImageShack :D

Heheh, guess not, but i got the point across when i needed it.
 
Damn you guys are making me want to move to Europe :/

As a poor student, I have to seriously restrict eating and all sorts of other things to get by.

The ONLY reason I manage to get by is due to my free tuition because my father is a veteran, but even then, The rest of the fees and lack of time I can spend working make living very hard in California.
 
Can anyone site for me a case where an American hospital turned someone away because they couldn't afford a life saving operation and didn't get the shit sued out of them? I really doubt it, but I could just be naive.

I had internal bleeding last year and spent an entire week in the hospital and all they asked me to do was put down a $500 deposit and I didn't have insurance. I received 13 transfusions and spent 2 or 3 nights (I can't remember) in the ICU. They also did an expensive scoping procedure on me THREE times.

You don't just get turned away when you are dieing, that isn't how it works. I can see being denied medicine but even that I am sure there are charities to help you out
 
Thrawn said:
Can anyone site for me a case where an American hospital turned someone away because they couldn't afford a life saving operation and didn't get the shit sued out of them? I really doubt it, but I could just be naive.

I had internal bleeding last year and spent an entire week in the hospital and all they asked me to do was put down a $500 deposit and I didn't have insurance. I received 13 transfusions and spent 2 or 3 nights (I can't remember) in the ICU. They also did an expensive scoping procedure on me THREE times.

You don't just get turned away when you are dieing, that isn't how it works. I can see being denied medicine but even that I am sure there are charities to help you out

It's true, if you are dying you will not be turned down.

But you will also live in debt for the rest of your life.
Not a little debt, very serious can't-afford-to-eat debt.
 
monsharen said:
frickin' 100 mbit broadband cables into half of swedens homes and we pay shit for it.
Hardly. It's closer to 1/5th of the homes due to Telias - now Skanova's ineptitude in laying out the fibre. Still, fibre connections ARE bloody cheap. [/quote]

Sweden is a declining first world country suffering under a stale political climate, where thinking outside the box is punished.

Though we once had perhaps THE best education system in the world, this system is now rapidly deteriorating as politicians lower requirements in school, to allow more people to reach higher education. While the motive is pure, the thinking behind it is flawed. For instance the move to privatize high school has been catastrophal, leading to the establishment of hundreds of sub-par schools all recruiting teachers with little or no actual credentials. We have people teaching who have never even studied the subject they are teaching the children. Foreign employers are slowly realizing this, and as a result of this the once high prestige of a Swedish education is dissapearing.

Today you can even get into a teachers education at university with below-average grades in the subject at hand. In fact, you don't even need to have a grade in it, thanks to insane school politics. We mostly have the social democrats to thank for this, but other riksdag parties are just as guilty as they have the exact same approach.

As for the health care system...bah. Let's just say it isn't as good as it seems on the surface, and leave it at that.
 
Thrawn said:
Can anyone site for me a case where an American hospital turned someone away because they couldn't afford a life saving operation and didn't get the shit sued out of them? I really doubt it, but I could just be naive.

I had internal bleeding last year and spent an entire week in the hospital and all they asked me to do was put down a $500 deposit and I didn't have insurance. I received 13 transfusions and spent 2 or 3 nights (I can't remember) in the ICU. They also did an expensive scoping procedure on me THREE times.

You don't just get turned away when you are dieing, that isn't how it works. I can see being denied medicine but even that I am sure there are charities to help you out

There are wrongful death suits all the time. According to Mr. Moore's documentary many health care professionals will get a bonus for denying medical care.

If you are questioning the gal on his film whom lost her daughter because the hospital refused treatment... I suppose she could be lying, or Mr. Moore could be lying. If that were the case, I would think the news agencies reviewing his work would have picked up on that one.

CNN's response to Michael Moore's outrage at their review can be found below:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Movies/07/15/moore.gupta/index.html

Quite a bit of it is them bickering back and forth. Moore will make a general valid point and CNN seems to take offense to that information. CNN points out that he used different sources and picked data from the most recent time frames instead of one bit of data at one time frame... Regardless, there has been a HUGE problem for some time now. It's time to fix it.

"Just this week, CNN aired a second investigative piece on hospitals that dump homeless patients onto Los Angeles' skid row." -CNN.com

The above should NEVER happen...
 
If any of you know anyone who has had a stubborn case of cancer, you will likely hear about a case of bankruptcy.

I've heard of it more than once from people I have directly known, at least one of them being family.
 
xdarkyrex said:
If any of you know anyone who has had a stubborn case of cancer, you will likely hear about a case of bankruptcy.

I've heard of it more than once from people I have directly known, at least one of them being family.

I had to watch my grandmother slowly degrade until she died. It all started because she was prescribed anti-depressant medication since it was determined that she was all the sudden, manic depressant... It's kind of funny because 8 family members took the same test including my father whom is a psychology major with a psyche that makes professor Exavior shake in his boots. They, including my father were all prescribed the same drugs because they too were manic depressant! Wow!? What are the odds?!?

Later it was found that the test was rigged and countless people had been prescribed this bull shit medication that ended up causing my otherwise healthy grandmother a stroke. She was never herself after that, withered away in an old folks home until she passed away a few months ago.

Retirement Homes... There is one despicable situation... The care that the senior citizens of the USA receive is outrageous. They are the reason why we are here today yet, there they sit, "old" worthless to society alone, with no family for they have been forgotten. What ever happened to respecting the elderly? Loving your mother and father? Valuing their life's contribution to society? They should live high and mighty compared to the crap they get. Yet there they sit, not recalling the last time they saw their family...

... Now that I have gone off on a entirely different subject... Why is it that a good majority of the people attending the showings of SiCKO in my neck of the woods have been 60+? I think that observation alone speaks volumes.
 
Maphusio said:
I had to watch my grandmother slowly degrade until she died. It all started because she was prescribed anti-depressant medication since it was determined that she was all the sudden, manic depressant... It's kind of funny because 8 family members took the same test including my father whom is a psychology major with a psyche that makes professor Exavior shake in his boots. They, including my father were all prescribed the same drugs because they too were manic depressant! Wow!? What are the odds?!?

If your dad was a psychology major he might have mentioned that it's not called Manic Depressant anymore it's Bipolar disorder. Bipolar disorder is very similar to Unipolar (Major depression). The medication they usually prescribe these days for Unipolar depression is an SSRI (Prozac, Zoloft, etc.) and they are very effective and have very little side effects although they have documented cardiovascular side effects.

Maphusio said:
... Now that I have gone off on a entirely different subject... Why is it that a good majority of the people attending the showings of SiCKO in my neck of the woods have been 60+? I think that observation alone speaks volumes.

Could be that many people are on to Michael Moore's bullshit propaganda and don't want to put another dollar in his pocket. Seriously, I'm not going to watch another MM film but does he offer a solution to American health care that does not border or cross the line of socialism (that is if he offers a solution at all)?
 
[PCE said:
el_Prez]
If your dad was a psychology major he might have mentioned that it's not called Manic Depressant anymore it's Bipolar disorder. Bipolar disorder is very similar to Unipolar (Major depression). The medication they usually prescribe these days for Unipolar depression is an SSRI (Prozac, Zoloft, etc.) and they are very effective and have very little side effects although they have documented cardiovascular side effects.

Funny thing about SSRIs and MAOIs... they're not terribly different than MDMA in effect... yet MDMA remains a Schedule I drug. Who comes up with this shit?
 
[PCE said:
el_Prez]
Maphusio said:
I had to watch my grandmother slowly degrade until she died. It all started because she was prescribed anti-depressant medication since it was determined that she was all the sudden, manic depressant... It's kind of funny because 8 family members took the same test including my father whom is a psychology major with a psyche that makes professor Exavior shake in his boots. They, including my father were all prescribed the same drugs because they too were manic depressant! Wow!? What are the odds?!?

If your dad was a psychology major he might have mentioned that it's not called Manic Depressant anymore it's Bipolar disorder. Bipolar disorder is very similar to Unipolar (Major depression). The medication they usually prescribe these days for Unipolar depression is an SSRI (Prozac, Zoloft, etc.) and they are very effective and have very little side effects although they have documented cardiovascular side effects.

Oh yes! You caught me! I was lying about my father... *rolls eyes* Please don't slander my father, thank you. My point being, that its quite odd those whom took the test were found to be in serious need of medication for their screwy emotions when they are in fact all quite stable emotionally.

Maphusio said:
... Now that I have gone off on a entirely different subject... Why is it that a good majority of the people attending the showings of SiCKO in my neck of the woods have been 60+? I think that observation alone speaks volumes.

[PCE said:
el_Prez]Could be that many people are on to Michael Moore's bullshit propaganda and don't want to put another dollar in his pocket. Seriously, I'm not going to watch another MM film but does he offer a solution to American health care that does not border or cross the line of socialism (that is if he offers a solution at all)?

So by your theory, the majority of the people paying to see this movie are paying because they don't want to pay... ?!

Oh wow, thats why its called "Socialized Medicine"??? I don't want to become a red loving commie like a good majority of the western world! I'd rather not be able to afford health care. I'd rather loved ones die when god intended them to.

Come on pally, you seriously think this will lead us down a worse path than the one we are all ready on? Wait a tink, you have indicated that you don't see any problems with our current health care system. Write me when your 70 attempting to afford medical insurance since the government has 0 plans for senior citizens medical aid past 2019.
 
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