Skills in Fallout 4: What We Know

[Walpknut]

I'm ready for change in the form of re-assessing RPGs and making them work for today without shitting all over the past.

Except there's nothing to "re-assess". CRPG games that use the classic formula still work and sell today. It's not old, it's not stale, it still has a big audience, as proven by PoE and Torment kickstarters. You don't have to deconstruct the entire genre to make it fit into modern gaming standards, you only need to be able to be good at making games in said genre. That's the crux of it and no amount of apologetic "but it's for the better!" crying is going to change the fact that Bethesda does not give half a fuck about the legacy of Fallout 1 and 2, or CRPGs from that period in general. They want to make the game as simple and processable by modern console children as possible - fair, their right to do so. But let's not say it's creative in any way, that's just offensive to any developer with actual ambition and imagination.

19 skills to no skills. Innovation! Augment gameplay with your own imagination pertaining to what character you are ROLE PLAYING to "no, you're that guy. That's how you sound". Innovation! Complex dialogue trees to simplistic collar-grabbing vs saint of saints choice. Innovation!

Please.

Yeah I don't get this idea of "making it work for today" what doesn't work today? Reading? Actual freedom in gameplay that is not just tied to a big empty map of nothing? WHy is it that people feel that homogenization is a good thing at all? If they don't like cRPGs just go play something else, no one is tellign you to like them, so why do you insist on changing it to something it's not?
It's very telling when the people who make those kind of "It's an evolution" comments usually avoid engaging with actual arguments, instead they just go for the generalizations and personal attacks while making a big stink of them not even being interested in discussion. I guess that's what doesn't work for today. Thinking.

 

[fred2]

Except there's nothing to "re-assess". CRPG games that use the classic formula still work and sell today. It's not old, it's not stale, it still has a big audience, as proven by PoE and Torment kickstarters. [..]

Actually, cRPG audience is extremely tiny, that why only classics with cult following managed to lift off. Also you obviously haven't been following the development of the games you mentioned, thus unaware of the many updates to formula that has been done (e.g. go to rpgcodex, and you'll find many ranting about JS mechanics )

19 skills to no skills. Innovation! [..]

Did you actually watched the video in the post you quoted, or couldn't get past this superficial fact? Because he actually makes a good case that it will be an improvement, and I agree.

 

[Walpknut]

He makes a case for it only benefitting combat skills. Still one wouldn't call changing the entire genre of a game innovation the same way turnning a Bycicle into an Unicycle isn't evolution. Gopher fails to address the underlying problem of this limiting character build or even how it affects the dialogue system in addition with the 4 dialogue option cross system.
Fallout is just becoming a shooter dressed as a series the developers of the game don't even seem to respect in any way.

 

[fred2]

He suggested away in which perks can be an improvement over the current system. If you aren't interested in discussing that mechanic, only spewing silly slogans, moving goal posts and acting like a drama queen - then count me out.

 

[SMBComix]

He suggested away in which perks can be an improvement over the current system. If you aren't interested in discussing that mechanic, only spewing silly slogans, moving goal posts and acting like a drama queen - then count me out.

Sadly, that's about 90% of the people on this board, especially after the Fallout 4 announcement. When I first got here, all of them were more or less civil at least but now in the wake of Fallout 4, they're taking their prerequisite hatred of Bethesda and modern Fallout to a whole new level.

If this wasn't the ONLY Fallout fan community on the web, I'd leave -- this atmosphere is far too toxic for someone who doesn't hate Bethesda or the modern titles.

 

[TheGreatCornholio]

He suggested away in which perks can be an improvement over the current system. If you aren't interested in discussing that mechanic, only spewing silly slogans, moving goal posts and acting like a drama queen - then count me out.

Sadly, that's about 90% of the people on this board, especially after the Fallout 4 announcement. When I first got here, all of them were more or less civil at least but now in the wake of Fallout 4, they're taking their prerequisite hatred of Bethesda and modern Fallout to a whole new level.

If this wasn't the ONLY Fallout fan community on the web, I'd leave -- this atmosphere is far too toxic for someone who doesn't hate Bethesda or the modern titles.

As a fan of FO3 I will say that I think alot of the criticism of FO3 is valid, especially when weighed against New Vegas which produced a far better game IMO while working with the same tools but some of the complaints are a little silly (tunnel snake jackets anyone?)

Beth did some things good in FO3 and alot of things not so good. Im not going to write off the new game or be pessimistic until Im actually playing it. Alot of these things that dont seem so great on the surface might turn out to be improvements or they could be colossal failures. We can speculate one way or the other but theres no knowing until you have the finished product.

 

[Walpknut]

He suggested away in which perks can be an improvement over the current system. If you aren't interested in discussing that mechanic, only spewing silly slogans, moving goal posts and acting like a drama queen - then count me out.

Maybe you could actually form an argument instead of parroting the same personal attacks? I already said his proposal would only work in Fallout was entirely Combat oriented, but this perk system combined with the 4 dialogue choice system still leves it as a dumbed down game when it comes to the social and diplomatic spect of the game which is one of the core aspects of the entire Fallout series.

Maybe you could actually try and discuss instead of throwign a fit whenever someone disagrees and make generalizations?

 

[SMBComix]

He suggested away in which perks can be an improvement over the current system. If you aren't interested in discussing that mechanic, only spewing silly slogans, moving goal posts and acting like a drama queen - then count me out.

Sadly, that's about 90% of the people on this board, especially after the Fallout 4 announcement. When I first got here, all of them were more or less civil at least but now in the wake of Fallout 4, they're taking their prerequisite hatred of Bethesda and modern Fallout to a whole new level.

If this wasn't the ONLY Fallout fan community on the web, I'd leave -- this atmosphere is far too toxic for someone who doesn't hate Bethesda or the modern titles.

As a fan of FO3 I will say that I think alot of the criticism of FO3 is valid, especially when weighed against New Vegas which produced a far better game IMO while working with the same tools but some of the complaints are a little silly (tunnel snake jackets anyone?)

Oh, agreed. While I can't say I think the writing sucks, I do believe that basically forcing you to help Lyons' Brotherhood of Steel was not a good idea; they had just created an opportunity earlier on at Raven Rock to have at LEAST two different outcomes of the game, one in which you join the Enclave instead, but rather than do that they keep the Enclave hostile toward you and send you to the BoS anyway.

Beth did some things good in FO3 and alot of things not so good. Im not going to write off the new game or be pessimistic until Im actually playing it. Alot of these things that dont seem so great on the surface might turn out to be improvements or they could be colossal failures. We can speculate one way or the other but theres no knowing until you have the finished product.

This is by far the most reasonable way to look at Fallout 4 at this juncture. Until we have it in our hands and we're playing it ourselves, we won't have any idea of what's going on with it. I do have some hope though that they learned something from the modding community and Obsidian about creating open-ended RPGs... hell, they proved they could do that earlier with the Pitt DLC, so there's no reason they can't do that here too.

 

[fred2]

@Walpknut. Piss off. His suggestion is interesting. While you just repeating the same suspicion you (and pretty much everyone else, including me) said a hundred times, only in different context. I'd rather discuss pure mechanics, then listen to you getting mental erections from pointing out how dumbed down the game will become in unrelated aspects.

And no, that mechanic doens't necessitate any change in non-combat skills, in fact a point based system is much more common in cRPGs, and you if you name each point you get ... yes... perks!

 

[The Doctor]

So...maybe when leveling up, you gain "perk points" that make different things happen?

Kinda like Skyrim's system?

 

[Walpknut]

Except no mention of perk points is ever made in the SPECIAL screen, nor Skill points. Also I don't generally like his idea, makes perks way too important while also making them boring % increases. So then it would become an overly segmented skill system while the perk system dissappears. Which is how the Skyrim leveling system is (without the grinding aspect to skills). I doubt Bethesda will go that route, they got rid of skills to make it simpler and Perception already says in it's description that it is what determines Accuracy in VATS.

 

[SMBComix]

I still don't think the skills thing is that big of a deal. In fact, I think it'll probably help the game in the long run. We'll have to see when it comes out though, no use making judgements right now before we've even played the damn thing.

In the meantime, if you really want to spend time trying to figure out what skills to level up next, Fallouts 1 through New Vegas are still available and still 100% playable.

 

[Reaper Shackal]

I still don't think the skills thing is that big of a deal. In fact, I think it'll probably help the game in the long run. We'll have to see when it comes out though, no use making judgements right now before we've even played the damn thing.

In the meantime, if you really want to spend time trying to figure out what skills to level up next, Fallouts 1 through New Vegas are still available and still 100% playable.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Xbox-One-Internet-Connection-Always-On-Required-xbox-360,23061.html

Are you Don Mattrick? (I couldn't resist pointing this out.)

 

[Madbringer]

I still don't think the skills thing is that big of a deal. In fact, I think it'll probably help the game in the long run. We'll have to see when it comes out though, no use making judgements right now before we've even played the damn thing.

In the meantime, if you really want to spend time trying to figure out what skills to level up next, Fallouts 1 through New Vegas are still available and still 100% playable.

Yeah sure, shitting all over core gameplay paradigms inherent to the series is no big deal. Dumbing down mechanics? Pure. Genius. So innovative, castrate the system to make the ADD audience understand it better. I mean, who today could handle percentages anyway, you'd probably need a degree in mathematics to properly read those.

Haha. If Fallout 1 was a platformer you'd be asking why Fallout 4 needs jumping.

 

[SMBComix]

I still don't think the skills thing is that big of a deal. In fact, I think it'll probably help the game in the long run. We'll have to see when it comes out though, no use making judgements right now before we've even played the damn thing.

In the meantime, if you really want to spend time trying to figure out what skills to level up next, Fallouts 1 through New Vegas are still available and still 100% playable.

Yeah sure, shitting all over core gameplay paradigms inherent to the series is no big deal. Dumbing down mechanics? Pure. Genius. So innovative, castrate the system to make the ADD audience understand it better. I mean, who today could handle percentages anyway, you'd probably need a degree in mathematics to properly read those.

Haha. If Fallout 1 was a platformer you'd be asking why Fallout 4 needs jumping.

Do you get off on being a prick? If you really want to just play the same old Fallout game, the classic series is still there and just as good as it ever was. The series NEEDS to evolve if it's gonna stay alive, and that means changing with the times. Sorry over-aggressive hipsters like you can't see that.

 

[Madbringer]

Do you get off on being a prick? If you really want to just play the same old Fallout game, the classic series is still there and just as good as it ever was. The series NEEDS to evolve if it's gonna stay alive, and that means changing with the times. Sorry over-aggressive hipsters like you can't see that.

I'd rather see the series dead than watch it "evolve" into garbage. New Vegas was a step in the right direction - it showed you can bring Fallout into modern gaming standards while preserving the things that made the original games good. Quite fitting that Bethesda is willing to run the NV pointers down the shitter instead of drawing conclusions and finding a compromise. And quite fitting that fanboys like you will keep defending that under some deluded pretense of keeping the franchise alive.

 

[SMBComix]

Do you get off on being a prick? If you really want to just play the same old Fallout game, the classic series is still there and just as good as it ever was. The series NEEDS to evolve if it's gonna stay alive, and that means changing with the times. Sorry over-aggressive hipsters like you can't see that.

I'd rather see the series dead than watch it "evolve" into garbage. New Vegas was a step in the right direction - it showed you can bring Fallout into modern gaming standards while preserving the things that made the original games good. Quite fitting that Bethesda is willing to run the NV pointers down the shitter instead of drawing conclusions and finding a compromise. And quite fitting that fanboys like you will keep defending that under some deluded pretense of keeping the franchise alive.

I hate to break it to you, but beyond the fact it was developed by a different team, I literally could not make out any major gameplay difference between New Vegas and Fallout 3. I'm also not a "fanboy." If this developer did something I felt was a mistake, I'd let them know in a heartbeat. I would not, however, tell them it was a mistake without giving it a shot first.

Oh, and like I said in another thread -- I don't play games for genre. The fact Fallout's an RPG means nothing to me. I care more about the setting itself, and what the game actually allows me to do, instead of HOW it allows me to do it. Maybe that makes me a filthy casual. At least I'm not getting bent out of shape over a goddamn video game.

That being said, let me restate: I plan to give this game a fair shake BEFORE I pass judgement on it. If I find the skill system or dialogue system to be lacking, and to do that it'd have to be VERY detrimental to my overall experience, then I'll be right there beside you bashing away at it until Bethesda realizes their mistake. NOT before. I'd advise you to do the same if you wish to remain a rational human being, instead of bashing away at something you haven't even fucking played yourself yet just because it's not Interplay or Obsidian making it. Makes me wonder who the real "fanboy" is, really.

 

[Madbringer]

I hate to break it to you, but beyond the fact it was developed by a different team, I literally could not make out any major gameplay difference between New Vegas and Fallout 3. I'm also not a "fanboy." If this developer did something I felt was a mistake, I'd let them know in a heartbeat. I would not, however, tell them it was a mistake without giving it a shot first.

Oh, and like I said in another thread -- I don't play games for genre. The fact Fallout's an RPG means nothing to me. I care more about the setting itself, and what the game actually allows me to do, instead of HOW it allows me to do it. Maybe that makes me a filthy casual. At least I'm not getting bent out of shape over a goddamn video game.

And that's exactly why you'll never understand why people who played Fallout 1 and 2 when they released, and came to love those games, are so angry about Bethesda's sequels and treat them as betrayal. I can respect that - you don't know better, you have no feelings invested here.

However, telling people to not get offended when a thing they treasure is butchered is mighty arrogant of you. You like what you see? That's fine. I do not, and I will exert my right to express my feelings.

That being said, let me restate: I plan to give this game a fair shake BEFORE I pass judgement on it. If I find the skill system or dialogue system to be lacking, and to do that it'd have to be VERY detrimental to my overall experience, then I'll be right there beside you bashing away at it until Bethesda realizes their mistake. NOT before. I'd advise you to do the same if you wish to remain a rational human being, instead of bashing away at something you haven't even fucking played yourself yet just because it's not Interplay or Obsidian making it. Makes me wonder who the real "fanboy" is, really.

I have exactly zero intention of being rational about any of my comments regarding FO4. I abhor every single change announced or pointed out by observant commenters yet. I freely admit to being a fanboy of FO1 and FO2, I love those games to death - and I seethe with utter hatred to the things Bethesda did to the franchise I love.

 

[SMBComix]

I hate to break it to you, but beyond the fact it was developed by a different team, I literally could not make out any major gameplay difference between New Vegas and Fallout 3. I'm also not a "fanboy." If this developer did something I felt was a mistake, I'd let them know in a heartbeat. I would not, however, tell them it was a mistake without giving it a shot first.

Oh, and like I said in another thread -- I don't play games for genre. The fact Fallout's an RPG means nothing to me. I care more about the setting itself, and what the game actually allows me to do, instead of HOW it allows me to do it. Maybe that makes me a filthy casual. At least I'm not getting bent out of shape over a goddamn video game.

And that's exactly why you'll never understand why people who played Fallout 1 and 2 when they released, and came to love those games, are so angry about Bethesda's sequels and treat them as betrayal. I can respect that - you don't know better, you have no feelings invested here.

However, telling people to not get offended when a thing they treasure is butchered is mighty arrogant of you. You like what you see? That's fine. I do not, and I will exert my right to express my feelings.

That being said, let me restate: I plan to give this game a fair shake BEFORE I pass judgement on it. If I find the skill system or dialogue system to be lacking, and to do that it'd have to be VERY detrimental to my overall experience, then I'll be right there beside you bashing away at it until Bethesda realizes their mistake. NOT before. I'd advise you to do the same if you wish to remain a rational human being, instead of bashing away at something you haven't even fucking played yourself yet just because it's not Interplay or Obsidian making it. Makes me wonder who the real "fanboy" is, really.

I have exactly zero intention of being rational about any of my comments regarding FO4. I abhor every single change announced or pointed out by observant commenters yet. I freely admit to being a fanboy of FO1 and FO2, I love those games to death - and I seethe with utter hatred to the things Bethesda did to the franchise I love.

Look man, I appreciate that you love the classic titles. I own 'em myself, they're pretty solid and are still enjoyable after all these years. Fuck, I *think* I'm almost halfway through my playthrough of Fallout 1, just got me some power armor and I already got the water chip back to Vault 13. No idea what to do next; I don't think I'm ready to take on the Master or go to Mariposa just yet. But that's neither here nor there.

I'd never, EVER tell another sentient being they don't have a right to their own opinion. I also would not, intentionally or otherwise, insinuate that they're stupid or lacking intelligence due to what they think... unless of course they actually WERE grossly misinformed about something important, in which case I'll declare open season on their IQ.

The thing is though, if we can't remain rational, we are lost. I'm not telling you to like the Bethesda titles, no one's got the right to tell you what to like or not like. Liberty Prime would blast me in the balls for that sort of thing. I'm just sayin'... you could be a bit less hostile. Sure, yeah, feel free to express your opinion and your passion, I mean that's what we're all here for, right? -- but don't go ballistic every time someone else comes along with an opinion different from yours.

'Murica and China nuked each other because they didn't like the other's opinion of who should control the last remaining resources on Earth. Let's not be like them. Savvy?

Just for clarification, that post's actually directed at ALL the Interplay fanboys attacking and insulting people who enjoy the modern Fallouts. I really hate that "fanboy" term...

 

[Walpknut]

If you can't seriously see the OCEAN of differences between New vegas and FO3 then you might not be a very observant person at all. They are so obvious I kind of thought people notcied. Guess I over estimate people sometimes.

The only ones who even attack in general are the beth fanboys that come here to tell us to think like them and just accept what there is with a smile. If you like it that's fine, tell us why, we might not agree or even see your point, the moment you kids start with the "Oh my god, you just want isometric and you are living in the past" shit is when we lose any kind of interest in respecting your opinion. Specially since I didn't play Fallout 1 and 2 when they came out, but I can still respect a franchise's genre when I get into it. I play a lot of different types of games so I don't have this weird compulsion where I just want to see the exact same thing in every game, when I am playign a JRPG I expect a specific set of things set by the genre and the franchise, I won't ask Shin Megami Tense Nocturne to turn into a Brawler, the same way I don't demand Bayonetta become turn based. Variety is the spice of life, and when people peddle the idea of homogenization as "evolution" of the medium it just pisses me off.