So what lore has Bethesda done gone fucked up?

[ZigzagPX4]

And I am. Damn amusing to watch a small number of man-children cry endlessly about the "glory days" of a series who's very quality is every bit as debatable as the company. who now owns it and who have to mindlessly complain about every single change that's made regardless of the quality of the changes.

Those same disenginuos people then claim it's the Bethesda fans that are rabid and. illogical. Wreaks of comical hypocrisy.

From a pro-Bethesda POV here - there are rabid fans on both sides of any coin. It's inevitable. I wouldn't consider this rabid so much as a little bit of a rant - which is fair, and completely justified, considering the site is a haven for this exact specific community.

In response to the lore changes themselves - Bethesda follows quite a clear path of not having the lore and gameplay connect with each other. The power cores were just a balance thing, and I wouldn't take them too seriously to heart. As for other mentions like pre-war Jet and Advanced PAs in the East Coast - they're quite clearly "randomised", and not connected to the lore.

I mean, you can find Pipe Pistols in places locked off to the rest of the world for the entire time period between the bombs dropping and the events of the game. That's not bad writing because it isn't supposed to be there. It's the limitations of the engine, plus partial laziness for not wanting to program an extra loot list so that it makes sense.

 

[Mr Fish]

@Trannigan

 

[GlowHound]

As for other mentions like pre-war Jet and Advanced PAs in the East Coast - they're quite clearly "randomised", and not connected to the lore.

There's mention of Jet being part of a drug shipment to a Vault in a pre-war terminal entry.

Unless the drugs mentioned in that terminal are randomised in every game(I would hope that's the case, but then even if it was, Jet shouldn't be on that list regardless), it's definitely a fuck up.

 

[Dr Fallout]

As for other mentions like pre-war Jet and Advanced PAs in the East Coast - they're quite clearly "randomised", and not connected to the lore.

There's mention of Jet being part of a drug shipment to a Vault in a pre-war terminal entry.

Unless the drugs mentioned in that terminal are randomised in every game(I would hope that's the case, but then even if it was, Jet shouldn't be on that list regardless), it's definitely a fuck up.

It's a blatant mistake that ruins Jet. Also drug addictions barely do anything, hence Jet is no longer as potent.

 

[Eternal]

And I am. Damn amusing to watch a small number of man-children cry endlessly about the "glory days" of a series who's very quality is every bit as debatable as the company. who now owns it and who have to mindlessly complain about every single change that's made regardless of the quality of the changes.

Those same disenginuos people then claim it's the Bethesda fans that are rabid and. illogical. Wreaks of comical hypocrisy.

From a pro-Bethesda POV here - there are rabid fans on both sides of any coin. It's inevitable. I wouldn't consider this rabid so much as a little bit of a rant - which is fair, and completely justified, considering the site is a haven for this exact specific community.

In response to the lore changes themselves - Bethesda follows quite a clear path of not having the lore and gameplay connect with each other. The power cores were just a balance thing, and I wouldn't take them too seriously to heart. As for other mentions like pre-war Jet and Advanced PAs in the East Coast - they're quite clearly "randomised", and not connected to the lore.

I mean, you can find Pipe Pistols in places locked off to the rest of the world for the entire time period between the bombs dropping and the events of the game. That's not bad writing because it isn't supposed to be there. It's the limitations of the engine, plus partial laziness for not wanting to program an extra loot list so that it makes sense.

We aren't discussing random loot tables, there has been two instances of jet being mentioned within a pre-war settings. An old note and a terminal entry.

Now IIRC there is a dialogue mistake in FO2 that contradicts something and avellone has stated it was a mistake. However this isn't followed through on with a second mistake like the pre-war jet is. We haven't seen if there is even more examples of it yet. The mistake in FO2 was also not nearly as big as pre-war jet is. IIRC the contradiction was much less of an issue than possibly contradicting a huge core story element to a previous game.

 

[Dr Fallout]

And I am. Damn amusing to watch a small number of man-children cry endlessly about the "glory days" of a series who's very quality is every bit as debatable as the company. who now owns it and who have to mindlessly complain about every single change that's made regardless of the quality of the changes.

Those same disenginuos people then claim it's the Bethesda fans that are rabid and. illogical. Wreaks of comical hypocrisy.

From a pro-Bethesda POV here - there are rabid fans on both sides of any coin. It's inevitable. I wouldn't consider this rabid so much as a little bit of a rant - which is fair, and completely justified, considering the site is a haven for this exact specific community.

In response to the lore changes themselves - Bethesda follows quite a clear path of not having the lore and gameplay connect with each other. The power cores were just a balance thing, and I wouldn't take them too seriously to heart. As for other mentions like pre-war Jet and Advanced PAs in the East Coast - they're quite clearly "randomised", and not connected to the lore.

I mean, you can find Pipe Pistols in places locked off to the rest of the world for the entire time period between the bombs dropping and the events of the game. That's not bad writing because it isn't supposed to be there. It's the limitations of the engine, plus partial laziness for not wanting to program an extra loot list so that it makes sense.

We aren't discussing random loot tables, there has been two instances of jet being mentioned within a pre-war settings. An old note and a terminal entry.

Now IIRC there is a dialogue mistake in FO2 that contradicts something and avellone has stated it was a mistake. However this isn't followed through on with a second mistake like the pre-war jet is. We haven't seen if there is even more examples of it yet. The mistake in FO2 was also not nearly as big as pre-war jet is. IIRC the contradiction was much less of an issue than possibly contradicting a huge core story element to a previous game.

What mistake?

 

[GlowHound]

Mrs. Bishop saying John got her hooked on Jet when she was in Vault City. Jet hadn't been invented yet.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Mrs. Bishop saying John got her hooked on Jet when she was in Vault City. Jet hadn't been invented yet.

Ah, fair enough.

 

[Ben Soto]

My own personal headcanon with power armor (something I've worked on for a year or so for a fan fiction) is that there are multiple endoskeletons that any piece of power armor can snap onto. The civilian Mark I armor is common and used primarily for civilians and stateside troops, while other models are used by combatants. Mark I armor has a limited power source while the combat version has the previously established micro-fusion core.

Also, isn't power armor standard issue in the US army by 2077? Why wouldn't it be commonplace, especially in an area that has limited Brotherhood presence. I just don't get it.

 

[Askorti]

My own personal headcanon with power armor (something I've worked on for a year or so for a fan fiction) is that there are multiple endoskeletons that any piece of power armor can snap onto. The civilian Mark I armor is common and used primarily for civilians and stateside troops, while other models are used by combatants. Mark I armor has a limited power source while the combat version has the previously established micro-fusion core.

Also, isn't power armor standard issue in the US army by 2077? Why wouldn't it be commonplace, especially in an area that has limited Brotherhood presence. I just don't get it.

It was standard issue for cavalry divisions, not all soldiers. A standard grunt would still be wearing combat armor. Power Armor is very much the tanks of Fallout universe. This is why it makes little sense for there to be just so much PA in Boston, why would they station so many tanks there, instead of sending them off to mainland china, where they are needed? It makes sense for PA to be in California, to repel a potential Chinese counter-counter offensive and since it was probably the staging ground for the invasion, but Boston and DC? Not really. At least DC has mostly just the crap armors that were already replaced by T-51, but somehow BoS in Boston pulled T-60's out of their asses, the new magic top of the line PA.

 

[Ben Soto]

I don't know. I kinda wish they handwaved it by saying that there was a huge power armor factory in Boston or that a local military base was a power armor training facility or something.

Also, I know there's civilian power armor because I know somewhere there's an ad for power armor marketed to civilian consumers.

 

[Gizmojunk]

Mechanical nightmare; the idea that any piece of Power armor can attach to a common exo-skeleton ~and/or safely accommodate an occupant, and/or still move unimpaired.

 

[Stone Cold Robert House]

Mechanical nightmare; the idea that any piece of Power armor can attach to a common exo-skeleton ~and/or safely accommodate an occupant, and/or still move unimpaired.

Yeah I'm still not sure about how exactly that would work. It's really strange for all power armor types to be so standardized - why would the people developing newer models care about reverse compatibility with older skeletons? That would have to mean they're more or less the same internally, which doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[Someguy37]

Yeah I'm still not sure about how exactly that would work. It's really strange for all power armor types to be so standardized - why would the people developing newer models care about reverse compatibility with older skeletons? That would have to mean they're more or less the same internally, which doesn't make a lot of sense.

The way Fallout 4 presents it is that the frame is just that, a frame. All the improvements to each armor pieces are within each armor piece themselves. All the internals are in each piece themselves, not the frame, the frame is just the thing they attach the pieces too.

Its also a great cost cutting measure in the already taxed and resource drained America to build it that way so you don't have to make new frames for every single type of PA you make.

Does the vegetation count as a lore fuckup by the way? I mean, Fallout 1 and 2 largely took place in a desert and all but you could still find trees with almost black leaves on them and near the sea or near bodies of wate there were usually small green bushes. So like, while it ain't all green it still showed that life had continued, even if it got itself a nice shade of brown. But in Fallout 3 and from what I've seen of Fallout 4 it looks like everything's just dead. Charred trees still litter the woodlands. And I mean, vegetation moved on in the fucking desert. There is zero excuse for vegetation not to regrow like mad in a fucking woodland.

So is that a lore fuckup?

Avellone suggested that all the plants in the Mojave came from Vault 22/Big MT.

And given that spore plants, originally created in Vault 22, can be found as far as near Arroyo, in southern Oregon, basically all plant life in the southwest can be attributed to Vault 22, assuming its other seeds spread as far as the spore plants did.

 

[Ben Soto]

And since most of the southwest wasn't a desert (while where I live is very yellow, that's drought related) so it's probably assumed by even BIS/Obsidian that the black rain made vegetation really hard to grow. Alice Hostetler even mentions that at least her farm keeps falling because of radiation, even though there's nothing on the Geiger counter.

 

[Someguy37]

Fallout 3 wasn't even the first to suggest parts of the U.S. were like this.

Cassidy in Fallout 2 states that he heard the Midwest is one giant radioactive dust bowl, with twisters miles wide, and various endings for Fallout Tactics, which takes place in the Midwest, say that the soil was barren for decades, and its only due to the BoS bringing back irrigation systems that the land becomes fertile again.

So, barren, radioactive, and hellish, landscapes, with little to no plant life, seem to be the norm outside the west.

 

[Mr Fish]

Well, let's assume that that is the case; Thank god Wasteland isn't following that stupid shit and has real vegetation. I'm getting real sick of post-apocalyptic deserts.
Though from your two examples, one is a game who's already established to conflict with some lore, so it isn't wholly canon. And Cassidy 'heard' stuff. Doesn't mean it's true. People can talk shit or exaggerate or information can be misheard over and over until it becomes twisted and no longer represents the truth. Fallout 1, 2 and NV took place in relatively arid areas. Those are the only games I'd consider mostly canon. Tactics is the only game set outside of that and like I said, it ain't wholly canon as it has stuff that contradicts lore.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Well, let's assume that that is the case; Thank god Wasteland isn't following that stupid shit and has real vegetation. I'm getting real sick of post-apocalyptic deserts.
Though from your two examples, one is a game who's already established to conflict with some lore, so it isn't wholly canon. And Cassidy 'heard' stuff. Doesn't mean it's true. People can talk shit or exaggerate or information can be misheard over and over until it becomes twisted and no longer represents the truth. Fallout 1, 2 and NV took place in relatively arid areas. Those are the only games I'd consider mostly canon. Tactics is the only game set outside of that and like I said, it ain't wholly canon as it has stuff that contradicts lore.

Tactics has some things right, just change a bit of it and you have a fine game that fit's the universe.

 

[Mr Fish]

I agree.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I agree.

It's interesting that the developers of Tactics 2 were planning to make it lore friendly as possible, which makes it all the worse that it shut down. What shame.