*SPOILERS* Mr.House, NCR, Yus man, Or legion?

Ragemage said:
One thing I will say though involving the Legion is, we don't really know any of their problems because we only see them from a war standpoint.
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That's true. They could be experiencing water shortages. They don't mention any such thing though, so we can only guess. What we can surmise in any case is that the NCR are suffering water and food shortages because of internal problems. They could likely solve these problems if they had better management and/or would stop expending so much energy on external issues, but they seem obsessed with expanding, and a lot of the characters in FNV say as much. (I like the NCR myself, my preferred ending in FNV is the one that favours the NCR, but they are a mess, no doubt.)
 
Lanfear said:
That's true. They could be experiencing water shortages. They don't mention any such thing though, so we can only guess. What we can surmise in any case is that the NCR are suffering water and food shortages because of internal problems. They could likely solve these problems if they had better management and/or would stop expending so much energy on external issues, but they seem obsessed with expanding, and a lot of the characters in FNV say as much. (I like the NCR myself, my preferred ending in FNV is the one that favours the NCR, but they are a mess, no doubt.)
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Yeah, the NCR are a mess definitely, but honestly they and House are my favored endings to the game. I just don't trust Yes Man (though I like the idea of the Independent Ending and I find myself doing it a few times) and well, reasons for not wanting Caesar to win should be fairly obvious, even if they are an interesting faction. It's sad, if Caesar had focused less on slavery and making his entire society a cult of personality based around him, the Legion might have a fair chance of surviving long into the future. As it stands though, because Caesar built himself up as God in the Legion, the second he dies it'll all crumble.
 
Also, I didn't see this bit earlier, but:

Ragemage said:
Though this also makes me realize Fallout 3's main quest is even more stupid than I thought.
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Yes, it really is staggeringly dumb. You wouldn't even need to filter the water in the Potomac for radioactive particles, it would have all settled to the bottom of the river or been washed out into the Chesapeake long before Fallout 3.
 
I'm not a big fan on the NCR ending, but I guess it's technically the 'best' one. One could argue that it simply encourages its aggressive expansionism and has set it on a road to either autocracy or collapse, but it's hard to say.

As far as I recall, depending on how much effort you put into it Yes Man's ending turns New Vegas either into a city state or leaves the Mojave as it is, free to have its various faction act independently for better or for worse; it's a very neutral ending and my personal favourite, as I feel it is rather symbolic: the Legion, NCR and House are trying to relive the past, but the Courier has created a world for a new history to be developed.

I seem to remember that the Legion ending has several variables, mostly hinging on whether Caesar survives or not; this is presumably to make up for the lack of other 'evil' endings with the other major factions, as the Legion basically covers the entire spectrum from traitorous visir to loyal footsoldier.

Lastly, House. I rarely play through to his endings, since I grow annoyed with the employer/employee relationship rather quickly, but as memory serves he gains full control of the Mojave and partially restores it to its former glory, albeit at the cost of fascism.
 
Brivoo said:
Lastly, House. I rarely play through to his endings, since I grow annoyed with the employer/employee relationship rather quickly, but as memory serves he gains full control of the Mojave and partially restores it to its former glory, albeit at the cost of fascism.
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Woah now, House turns Vegas into an autocratic city state that requires good trade relations with NCR, fascism is racial purity and a war based economy and all that stuff, House turns Vegas into an authoritarian utopia not an authoritarian dystopia.
 
Izak said:
Woah now, House turns Vegas into an autocratic city state that requires good trade relations with NCR, fascism is racial purity and a war based economy and all that stuff, House turns Vegas into an authoritarian utopia not an authoritarian dystopia.
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Fascism simply means authoritarian and right-wing based on a very strict social structure; racial ideals and a societal war engine aren't necessarily elements within its structure.

I wouldn't really call any authoritarian state a Utopia, but I might be remembering House's endings as a lot worse than they actually are (or perhaps I simply never experienced the better ones). Either way, I'm of the opinion that the best endings are the NCR one, for simplicity's sake, and the Yes Man one in a very idealistic, look-forwards-not-backwards kind of way.
 
Ragemage said:
Huh, interesting. I did not know that. Though this also makes me realize Fallout 3's main quest is even more stupid than I thought.

One thing I will say though involving the Legion is, we don't really know any of their problems because we only see them from a war standpoint. We don't get to see any of their cities or civilians or see what life's like back on the homefront. We also don't really have any Legionaires talking about their home lives, only about the upcoming battle. So it makes sense why we wouldn't know about Legion water or food shortages. Makes me wish Obsidian had gotten that extra year to work on the game so we could have seen Legion towns and whatnot.
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This. While I would like to have a relatively good home life Legion, we have no idea of how home life is, and we cannot make assumptions based on their army.
 
Izak said:
Considering how close Caesar's Legion is to the Mongolian empire, I think it's a fair assumption that civilian life is comparable to Mongolian life during Genghis Khan's reign (but with stronger Roman influences, of course).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_the_Mongol_Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_the_Mongol_Empire_under_Genghis_Khan
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i also like to compare them to horde society in total war attila, an army that doesnt benefit on gaining and developing territory, only reach its glory by conquest

might implement it if there's a total war: fallout haha
 
Izak said:
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Actually no, Brivoo is right. Though I would compare House's reign more to a dual dictatorship than I would a 1 man rule thanks to the Courier having a say in pretty much all of House's decisions as said in the ending slide.

House does have fascist ideals, at least in the sense of how the economy and whatnot should run. Fascism can be a good thing honestly, Hitler managed to turn Germany from a country that was about to collapse from debt (think Greece today) into one of the strongest nations in the world. If he hadn't declared war on religion and hadn't tried to expand Germany's borders by taking over other countries, Germany might be a superpower by today's standards.

I find it funny also, House actually has a direct reference to fascism in his dialogue. During pre-WWII, Mussolini's Italy was known as an industrial powerhouse. Their specific quote about it was "Mussolini keeps the trains running on time!" In House's ending cutscene, he says the equivalent of "Speaking of, I really should improve on that monorail, now that the NCR won't be using it. I always hated how it never ran on time", a direct reference to Mussolini. Interesting, yeah?
 
Ragemage said:
House does have fascist ideals, at least in the sense of how the economy and whatnot should run. Fascism can be a good thing honestly, Hitler managed to turn Germany from a country that was about to collapse from debt (think Greece today) into one of the strongest nations in the world. If he hadn't declared war on religion and hadn't tried to expand Germany's borders by taking over other countries, Germany might be a superpower by today's standards.
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Though I know what you mean, I think you picked a bad example. Though Hitler was given credit for rebuilding his country, he only really sped up what was already happening, and he only managed to do that by excluding Jews, homosexuals and communists from the process, thereby creating more jobs for his first class citizens; hence, arguing that "if he hadn't declared war on religion" (I'm not sure if you mean his hostility towards the Vatican or anti-Semitism, but I'll go with the latter) Germany would have been a superpower is a moot point, since it was part of his strategy to turn it into said superpower.

Ragemage said:
I find it funny also, House actually has a direct reference to fascism in his dialogue. During pre-WWII, Mussolini's Italy was known as an industrial powerhouse. Their specific quote about it was "Mussolini keeps the trains running on time!" In House's ending cutscene, he says the equivalent of "Speaking of, I really should improve on that monorail, now that the NCR won't be using it. I always hated how it never ran on time", a direct reference to Mussolini. Interesting, yeah?
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Fun fact, Italy's reputation as an industrial powerhouse during the war is also fabricated; Mussolini's strength lied entirely on his propaganda campaign, which led to aforementioned quote mentioning that he kept the trains running on time; in actuality, Italy wasn't much of a powerhouse of anything, and the trains ran about as late as they'd ever had, if not more.


I don't particularly think that House's rule would be detrimental because of it being fascist; he's shown to be a shrewd planner and mastermind, orchestrating the rise of New Vegas from its ruins and the downfall of enemy presence in the area (albeit with your help).

My problem is that, given his longevity, his leadership will eventually stale; mental health aside (given how he's already survived this long without going mad) having one leader for extended periods of time isn't good for any nation when said leader is mortal, never mind when they cannot die. I'm aware that House plans on leaving the planet, but the logistics of such a plan are so irredeemably unachievable, especially in a world where most scientific knowledge achieved thus far has been burned in nuclear fire, and all fuel has either been exhausted or is too inefficient to utilize (and one should assume other prime resources are on their way out as well).

House may be a great inventor, but his field was robotics, not rocket science, astrophysics or whatever other fields one might need to realistically pull something like that off.
 
Brivoo said:
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Ah, really? I never realized any of that was simply propaganda. Fascinating, I now need to go re-educate myself on some parts of WWII history. And I meant both his anti-semetism and his attack on the Catholic/Protestant Churches, just for the record.

The only thing I'll argue about in your post is that you said House has no knowledge of how to leave the planet, space travel, etc but that's not true. He bought out RepConn years before the war, and in the Fallout universe, RepConn is the reason we put people on the Moon in the first place. In that sense they're almost like the NASA of Fallout's USA. House bought them out in order to learn about space travel, astrophysics, and so forth, everything he would need to make his plan work. That was the whole point of him buying the place, so he could learn these concepts and figure out how they worked before the world ended. He basically had control over the equivalent of NASA and soaked up all their information if the RepConn Headquarters is anything to go by. Go take the tour there, it's pretty eye-opening how big of an impact RepConn had on space travel, and then you realize it was bought out by RobCo long before the war and a lot of Mr. House's plans make more sense. It's kinda like how to make sure he was never wanting for company, he scanned that one super starlette's mind and recreated it in the Securitron Jane so he would always have a "lover" at his side. He planned really far ahead because he knew a war was bound to happen.
 
Ragemage said:
citation
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I recall him beginning his plans for the war fifteen years before it started and that he bought REPCONN; I hadn't realized he'd educated himself in the meantime however, and as far REPCONN's current equipment goes, well.

I don't think the Bright Brotherhood are doing so well.
 
Brivoo said:
I recall him beginning his plans for the war fifteen years before it started and that he bought REPCONN; I hadn't realized he'd educated himself in the meantime however, and as far REPCONN's current equipment goes, well.

I don't think the Bright Brotherhood are doing so well.
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I don't think those rockets used by the Bright Brotherhood were ever really meant for space travel, the game isn't clear on that. Hell, we aren't even sure if the "Far Beyond" is in space.

RepConn would still know about getting into space and all that, like I said, in the Fallout universe they were the ones that put man on the moon, and that was during their 1950s. over 120 years later I'm sure they probably knew a lot about space travel by that point. We know they built satellites at the very least because of Helios One and the Enclave's satellite system. I feel like House could have learned a lot from them when it came to space travel, and now that RepConn's gone, he's the only one left with this knowledge outside of maybe the Enclave and a couple pre-war ghouls.
 
Ragemage said:
I don't think those rockets used by the Bright Brotherhood were ever really meant for space travel, the game isn't clear on that. Hell, we aren't even sure if the "Far Beyond" is in space.

RepConn would still know about getting into space and all that, like I said, in the Fallout universe they were the ones that put man on the moon, and that was during their 1950s. over 120 years later I'm sure they probably knew a lot about space travel by that point. We know they built satellites at the very least because of Helios One and the Enclave's satellite system. I feel like House could have learned a lot from them when it came to space travel, and now that RepConn's gone, he's the only one left with this knowledge outside of maybe the Enclave and a couple pre-war ghouls.
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I have to say, you've convinced me. House might very well be able to go through with his plan eventually, and although I doubt it'll be free of complications, he's proven resourceful enough to pull through them.

Which probably makes that ending non-canon really, but whatever.
 
Brivoo said:
I have to say, you've convinced me. House might very well be able to go through with his plan eventually, and although I doubt it'll be free of complications, he's proven resourceful enough to pull through them.

Which probably makes that ending non-canon really, but whatever.
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Honestly it's kinda unknown which ending could be considered canon. Some might say the NCR but I'm not so sure. Considering how many different factions there are, and what you can do with those factions, and how you can influence the endings in so many different ways, it's pretty much impossible to say which ending is canon. For instance, you may help the NCR win, but because you didn't kill the Fiend leaders around Camp McCarran, the Fiends will attack it during the Battle of Hoover Dam, resulting in extremely heavy losses for the NCR. Or, in an Independent Run, you may convince the Great Khans to break their alliance with Caesar, but instead of telling them to leave Red Rock and seek their own fortune, you may convince them the only way to obtain honor is through death in battle, whereupon they'll stage a suicide run at Hoover Dam and get wiped out.

I personally hope the ending of NV stays up in the air. Too many factors go into it to make a "canon" ending. I think Obsidian's smart enough to know that, and they won't touch upon it. However, if Bethesda decides it wants to fuck with NV's ending and make one of them canon, well then we're fucked. Considering how much they retconned from Fallout 3 alone to make plotpoints in Fallout 4 work (such as the fact you can nuke Megaton and the Citadel), I have no doubt they'd make a canon ending for NV in a heartbeat if it meant throwing in some new faction to shoot in the east.
 
Ragemage said:
Considering how much they retconned from Fallout 3 alone to make plotpoints in Fallout 4 work (such as the fact you can nuke Megaton and the Citadel), I have no doubt they'd make a canon ending for NV in a heartbeat if it meant throwing in some new faction to shoot in the east.
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For once, I don't think you can really blame them for that. Fallout 2 did the same thing for Fallout 1; it's just a by-product of making a sequel for a game with multiple endings and conditions.

Fallout 1 also had a lot of variables, all of which were given appropriate canonicity in the Vault Dweller's memoirs; I don't doubt, nor do I resent the fact that if Obsidian were to make a sequel, they would pick whichever ending gave them the most to work with. They may take more interesting approaches with the variables, but ultimately I doubt that any ending that overcomplicates things (like a Legion or Independent ending) would be considered canon.

As a side note, though I don't mind retconning Fallout 3's endings for the sake of continuity, I would like to point out that Fallout 4 contradicts not only the original games' and the New Vegas lore in several other aspects, but also that of both Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 itself.
 
While a lot of Italian factories were propaganda Mussolini did improve the industrial sector of the Italian economy. Unlike Germany it was a much slower process and didn't have as big an effect. Otherwise he would have had a hard time creating tanks for the Italian warmachine (which was not absolute shit... okay it wasn't great, but they did have some good points).

Anyway, I hope Legion wins!
 
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