Star Wars: Rogue One

Dr Fallout said:
Ehhh.... that could work, but that makes the Alliance look even worse as an insufferable morally pure group. Turning their nose at the evils of others to fight pure and holy. Frankly, that makes me dislike the Alliance even more and turn strongly to the Empire. To be honest, I'm Imperial all the way. They're one of the better totalitarian nations.
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Eh, Star Wars is about choosing nonviolence and making peace with your enemies as well as using the barest minimum amount of violence necessary to save the lives of the many. It's all about the Just War. Because it's a big comic book and Pulp story.

I guess it's part of the same issue I had with Batman vs. Superman.

Batman and Superman good. Lex Luthor bad.

Confusing the two doesn't make it a deeper story.

Then again, I loved Fallout 3.

A side movie I'd love to see follows the viewpoint of Imperial defectors in an Imperial fleet after the destruction of the second Death Star and the Emperor. It would show the reaction of the Empire's navy and army, perhaps resulting in an epic battle between Imperial fleets to show how disunited the Empire has become.
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I might get the movie I want, which is an Ewan McGreggor Obi-Wan movie.
 
CT Phipps said:
Eh, Star Wars is about choosing nonviolence and making peace with your enemies as well as using the barest minimum amount of violence necessary to save the lives of the many. It's all about the Just War. Because it's a big comic book and Pulp story.
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Just War=:puke:
It doesn't exist and it's a bunch of bullshit. I'd rather have a movie giving me a depressing message then a light and jaunty one on the lie that is Just War.

Also it's not exactly a comic book or pulp story... the Vietnam war influenced the fight between the Rebels and Empire. Frankly, the underhanded tactics presented in Rogue One better portray the Alliance then the original movies do, if we work from the Vietnam war allegory.
 
CT Phipps said:
Eh, Star Wars is about choosing nonviolence and making peace with your enemies as well as using the barest minimum amount of violence necessary to save the lives of the many. It's all about the Just War. Because it's a big comic book and Pulp story.
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That's interesting, because I always thought that the rebellion was on the verge of something morally darker in the return of the jedi. Extremely agressive tactics, a more militaristic approach to the problem, and let's not forget what they did to the Ewoks, who used to live peacefully with the Empire until then. Give them a false god to enroll them as auxiliaries in a guerilla war, for example. Oh, and we know they eat human flesh. Guess what the rebellion ate during the last party? Guess where Leia's dress comes from, considering that they don't have any other human on their camp? They make music with empty stormtrooper helmets, for crying out loud ^^
 
Dr Fallout said:
Just War=:puke:
It doesn't exist and it's a bunch of bullshit. I'd rather have a movie giving me a depressing message then a light and jaunty one on the lie that is Just War.
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I'm not one to condemn people who defend themselves from invasion or being murdered or being enslaved, which is happening all over the world. Those who automatically equate moral equivalence don't necessarily do the world any favors because it normalizes monstrous behavior. I say that as a man who leans toward pacifism in RL.

Also it's not exactly a comic book or pulp story... the Vietnam war influenced the fight between the Rebels and Empire. Frankly, the underhanded tactics presented in Rogue One better portray the Alliance then the original movies do, if we work from the Vietnam war allegory.
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Lucas actually said the Rebellion was based on the French Resistance while the Vietnam war was with the EWOKS (albeit, they were Wookiees originally)

mithrap said:
That's interesting, because I always thought that the rebellion was on the verge of something morally darker in the return of the jedi. Extremely agressive tactics, a more militaristic approach to the problem, and let's not forget what they did to the Ewoks, who used to live peacefully with the Empire until then. Give them a false god to enroll them as auxiliaries in a guerilla war, for example. Oh, and we know they eat human flesh. Guess what the rebellion ate during the last party? Guess where Leia's dress comes from, considering that they don't have any other human on their camp? They make music with empty stormtrooper helmets, for crying out loud ^^
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Oh yes, the Ewoks totally ate the stormtroopers.

In my West End Games tabletop Star Wars games, I also state Ewoks have massive strength for their size and are basically fantasy dwarves.
 
CT Phipps said:
I'm not one to condemn people who defend themselves from invasion or being murdered or being enslaved, which is happening all over the world. Those who automatically equate moral equivalence don't necessarily do the world any favors because it normalizes monstrous behavior. I say that as a man who leans toward pacifism in RL.
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Pacifism is almost as bad as just war.
CT Phipps said:
Lucas actually said the Rebellion was based on the French Resistance while the Vietnam war was with the EWOKS (albeit, they were Wookiees originally)
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This disproves my point how?
 
CT Phipps said:
Basically, I'm saying it's better to look at the Rebellion with berets and loaves of bread than ambushes in the jungle.
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Ah ok.

ngbbs537ae8d0347ab.jpg
 
CT Phipps said:
Basically, I'm saying it's better to look at the Rebellion with berets and loaves of bread than ambushes in the jungle.
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Let's look at how they handled collaborators, and executed enemy soldiers without compassion or mercy, while employing indiscriminate sabotage and assassination.
 
Prone Squanderer said:
Ah ok.

ngbbs537ae8d0347ab.jpg
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Ah, I see you've met Charlos Digi-alle, General of the Alliance.

Dr Fallout said:
Let's look at how they handled collaborators, and executed enemy soldiers without compassion or mercy, while employing indiscriminate sabotage and assassination.
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Part of why I'd like them to have expanded Saw's role and maybe have him lead the Communist French Resistance equivalent. You know, those guys which were all but excised from the history books.
 
CT Phipps said:
Part of why I'd like them to have expanded Saw's role and maybe have him lead the Communist French Resistance equivalent. You know, those guys which were all but excised from the history books.
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Even the French Resistance that wasn't communist weren't exactly good and kind.
 
(Didn't watch it yet)
CT Phipps said:
That's why I didn't like it. Who gives a shit about the Rebellion if they're no better than the Empire?
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The end justifies to means. Or at least that tends to be the excuse given in war & resistance.
If you are a smaller force fighting something way larger & more powerful, you often have to make a choices which minimize your exposure. This sometimes means your choices endanger neutrals, innocents or even potential allies. It's very rare in history for a bunch of Goody Two-Shoes to win against a superior force of more ruthless enemies...
 
I liked it. The characters were pretty good, couple good jokes, great scenery/action etc. Had a problem with the start of the film and a few scenes in between the final action scene.

Just an all round good film. Better than TFA at least :puke:

Not going to give it a rating until I see it a couple more times.
 
SuAside said:
The end justifies to means. Or at least that tends to be the excuse given in war & resistance.If you are a smaller force fighting something way larger & more powerful, you often have to make a choices which minimize your exposure. This sometimes means your choices endanger neutrals, innocents or even potential allies. It's very rare in history for a bunch of Goody Two-Shoes to win against a superior force of more ruthless enemies...
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There's three separate points about that.

1. This is about a galaxy far far away where morality is literally real rather than figuratively. It's also escapist entertainment for children and teaching lessons to kids about right and wrong.

2. Rebellions by and large fail in reality whether they use ruthless methods or not because reality is governed by all sorts of crazy things. People often point to Vietnam as a successful "insurgency" but the Viet Cong were deliberately destroyed by North Vietnam in a Uriah Gambit (see TV tropes) to get rid of them and the war won by the actual country. The United States is also the product of a guerilla insurgency and that was built on doing their best to be all legitimate for the rest of the world.

The thing is, the ones which actually tend to be successful usually have governments and organization (plus foreign support but that ties into the fact that said groups tend to be more than just gangs of partisans). Those that degenerate into terrorism and warlordism tend to alienate their populace with even those that engage in attacks against civilians usually doing their best to avoid hitting their own people.

3. It's a question of whether it makes a better story to darken it up or not. What does it say about the saga as a whole?
 
CT Phipps said:
yada yada yada vietnam yada yada yada
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Yeah man fuck Star Wars. A movie about some people completing a suicide mission is too depressing.

This is a spin-off movie, it's set within the universe of Star Wars and fits into its timeline but is not a movie within the main Saga. Would you rather have them just regurgitate the OT and throw in diverse characters just for the sake of diversity?
 
SarcasticGoodGuy said:
Yeah man fuck Star Wars. A movie about some people completing a suicide mission is too depressing.

This is a spin-off movie, it's set within the universe of Star Wars and fits into its timeline but is not a movie within the main Saga. Would you rather have them just regurgitate the OT and throw in diverse characters just for the sake of diversity?
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8/10 isn't me saying it's a pile of bantha poodoo.

I'm just saying. "Is it STAR WARS to do a suicide mission?"

Allow me to re-envision this. It's not that I dislike the movie, I like it just fine despite my issues but imagine this was the Thanos vs. The Avengers movie and Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, and the others all died getting the Infinity Gauntlet away from him to the new Avengers who will take over.

A lot of people would love it but...is that what we want from the Avengers?
 
CT Phipps said:
8/10 isn't me saying it's a pile of bantha poodoo.

I'm just saying. "Is it STAR WARS to do a suicide mission?"

A lot of people would love it but...is that what we want from the Avengers?
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1. Didn't see your rating

2. The big Star Wars movies have all been pretty similar, this was a breath of fresh air after TFA. Plus this was a suicide mission done right, it had stakes- everyone dies, and it was only weakened by the fact that we know the outcome.

3. It's not an argument that's applicable to the Avengers because Rogue One was a spin off set within the Star Wars universe, whereas your Avengers idea would have many of the main characters die. If George Lucas had made episode 7 and had Luke, Han and Leia executed by TFO in the opening scene then yeah; but in Rogue One we were introduced to a whole new group of characters that aren't reoccurring throughout the Saga. I think that made sense.
 
Wasn't the original trilogy all about suicide missions?
New Hope: Infiltrate the Death Star prison just to save the princess, then attack the Death Star in the hope that someone gets lucky and puts an almost impossible torpedo hit into a thermal exhaust port
Empire Strikes Back: Attempt to secure your base against an overwhelming assault, then confront Vader because of a vision.
Return of the Jedi: Infiltrate Jabba's Palace to get back Solo, infiltrate the shield generator of the second Death Star and try to attack it with a fleet when it should have been obvious that it's a trap. Oh, and confront Vader again, and the fucking Emperor.
Yes, it absolutely IS Star Wars to do a suicide mission. It's always been about sacrifice and the greater good and whatnot. It's a space opera after all :D

Also, as we already know CT, your 8/10 means jiggly shit.
 
CT Phipps said:
I'm just saying. "Is it STAR WARS to do a suicide mission?"
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Wasn't attacking the Death Star in A New Hope essentially a suicide mission? I mean if it wasn't for Luke being able to use the Force the rebels would have been wiped out.

EDIT: Hass ninja'd me.
 
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