Star Wars: Rogue One

I'm not trying to put down the movie for all my complaints about it but I do think it feels very much like an Original Trilogy film and was doing it's best to match those beats in a very specific way. It also succeeds in a way the Prequels did not try to do and is partially why they weren't accepted.

I do think the movie succeeded strongly with the fact I wanted to spend more time with the characters. Sadly, Jyn and Cassian seem like the least interesting of the group in a way even ANH Luke didn't.

I also have the suspicion the reshoots drained away a lot of Jyn's pluck. I really liked the "I Rebel" line because a arrogant unpleasant female character to, ironically, other female authority figures is a gender reversal of a very common and very popular male archetype.
 
CT Phipps said:
I do think the movie succeeded strongly with the fact I wanted to spend more time with the characters. Sadly, Jyn and Cassian seem like the least interesting of the group in a way even ANH Luke didn't.
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While they weren't the most interesting in the group, I found them way more interesting than Luke, because they were more than a plucky farmboy who becomes a space hero. A lot more.
 
I was quite interested to know more about the kind of things Cassian and the other Rebels in the Rogue One squadron did for the Rebellion. It's nice to finally get on-screen confirmation that the Rebellion had to resort to committing morally ambiguous acts to keep the Rebellion going (one of my problems with the Rebellion is how civilized and morally upright they came across like they could do no evil).

I do wish there was more time spent with the characters and going into details. I mean, aside from the main two, I really wanted to see Donnie Yen's character go into detail on his own perspective of the Force.

I will also admit to cheering when a Hammerhead corvette slammed into that Star Destroyer. It may be an old ship but damn it all, those ships were in KOTOR.

Also that Vader part at the end. I can see why the Emperor keeps him around. Plus I found it hilarious that Vader was stationed on Mustafar. The Emperor must love rubbing Vader's defeat in his face on a daily basis.
 
CerberusGate said:
I was quite interested to know more about the kind of things Cassian and the other Rebels in the Rogue One squadron did for the Rebellion. It's nice to finally get on-screen confirmation that the Rebellion had to resort to committing morally ambiguous acts to keep the Rebellion going (one of my problems with the Rebellion is how civilized and morally upright they came across like they could do no evil).
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By contrast, I wanted to know more about Saw's group. I'm not objecting to the idea of terrorists and insurgents in Star Wars but I wanted them firmly distanced from the Rebellion and people they were disgusted by. Saw being Jyn's kindly father figure prevented that, though. To me there wasn't enough differentiation between the Alliance and Saw's Partisans onscreen.

I'd love for them to have Bodhi about to be executed or fed to the monster for the crime of being an Imperial, only for Cassian to rescue him.

Really? I assumed Vader built the castle there himself. It's where the Dark Lord of the Sith was born after all and Anakin died.
 
CT Phipps said:
Really? I assumed Vader built the castle there himself.
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Who knows? I presume it was the Emperor since IIRC, the Emperor does put down Vader a lot in order to beat him into submission, which worked until ESB when he does learn that Luke is his son.

CT Phipps said:
By contrast, I wanted to know more about Saw's group. I'm not objecting to the idea of terrorists and insurgents in Star Wars but I wanted them firmly distanced from the Rebellion and people they were disgusted by. Saw being Jyn's kindly father figure prevented that, though. To me there wasn't enough differentiation between the Alliance and Saw's Partisans onscreen.
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To me, the Rebellion having darker elements and being not so different to Saw's radicals actually fleshes out the Rebellion. Since this was before Luke brought the Rebellion a new hope and inspired them, the Rebellion would have been like any other large insurgency group with differing factions in it. Once they saw Luke perform his miracle against the Empire, they could rally together.

That scene with the Rebellion's Senate shows that with all those people constantly disagreeing with each other. It made them more interesting to me (almost like one of those novels/comics set during those times).

One other thing I chuckled at was the use of the name Galen. There was a Galen Marek once (not sure if he's non-canon now) and there's a Galen here. Both wound up being vital to the Rebellion.
 
I don't get it why people keep saying the Empire is dark and evul. Sure the Sith tends to be at the top, but the actual imperial military is top notch and in incredible order. Planets under Imperial rule tend to prosper without any corruption, meanwhile the Rebels and the Republic make an absolute fucking mess of the location with their concept of "Alienz be gud" is continuously biting them in the ass. To be honest, I see the Empire and the Republic as both morally grey factions, one that can give order but has questionable actions, and the other proposes "everyone haz freedum", but also lets corruption fester, infighting, and soon great civil wars that lead to an everlasting cycle of fuckups.

Also, if I recall, the Empire was also made to protect something massive from attacking the galaxy.
 
CerberusGate said:
Who knows? I presume it was the Emperor since IIRC, the Emperor does put down Vader a lot in order to beat him into submission, which worked until ESB when he does learn that Luke is his son.
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Definite possibilities, either way. I really love the Darth Vader comic which fleshes out his relationship with Palpatine post-ANH.

To me, the Rebellion having darker elements and being not so different to Saw's radicals actually fleshes out the Rebellion. Since this was before Luke brought the Rebellion a new hope and inspired them, the Rebellion would have been like any other large insurgency group with differing factions in it.

That scene with the Rebellion's Senate shows that with all those people constantly disagreeing with each other. It made them more interesting to me.
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Eh, Saw was very much stated to have been kicked out the Rebellion for his extremism and militancy so it'd be interesting to see what he did which so disgusted Mon Mothma and the others. Casian is a former child soldier ("I've been in this fight since I was six") who has no hesitation to kill an informant and fellow resistance member to protect an Alliance one. If that is the Alliance's SOP then Saw must have been into some serious shit.

Zerginfestor said:
I don't get it why people keep saying the Empire is dark and evul. Sure the Sith tends to be at the top, but the actual imperial military is top notch and in incredible order. Planets under Imperial rule tend to prosper without any corruption, meanwhile the Rebels and the Republic make an absolute fucking mess of the location with their concept of "Alienz be gud" is continuously biting them in the ass. To be honest, I see the Empire and the Republic as both morally grey factions, one that can give order but has questionable actions, and the other proposes "everyone haz freedum", but also lets corruption fester, infighting, and soon great civil wars that lead to an everlasting cycle of fuckups.

Also, if I recall, the Empire was also made to protect something massive from attacking the galaxy.
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The Empire robs poor planets (Jedha) to enrich rich planets (Coruscant). It's an Empire. It's kind of in the name. Also, the Empire doesn't believe in Order.

VADER believes in Order.

It's really more a way for the Elite to help themselves to power.

Why the First Order is different since all of them actually believe in the doctrine.
 
CT Phipps said:
Eh, Saw was very much stated to have been kicked out the Rebellion for his extremism and militancy so it'd be interesting to see what he did which so disgusted Mon Mothma and the others. Casian is a six year old child soldier for example they employ who has no hesitation to kill an informant and fellow resistance member to protect an Alliance one. If that is the Alliance's SOP then Saw must have been into some serious shit.
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"Blew up settlements with civilians" shit, I guess? In the movie, his forces do engage Imperials in civilian populated areas while using physical (and mental?) torture to extract information.

Interesting thing to note is that this is the same Saw from the Clone Wars cartoon and that he's from Onderon.
 
CerberusGate said:
"Blew up settlements with civilians" shit? In the movie, his forces do engage Imperials in civilian populated areas.
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The Rebellion has no problem with collateral damage but only if they're civilian contractors. Randall and Dante spelled that out for us.

Interesting thing to note is that this is the same Saw from the Clone Wars cartoon and that he's from Onderon.
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Which means that he was trained by Darth Vader in insurgency. That's a bit of accidental hilarity that totally reflects RL.

The Empire has serious issues with blowback.

:)
 
CerberusGate said:
The Force Unleashed proves that this happens a lot to the Empire. They really should have consulted Thrawn for all of their plans.
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I feel kind of bad Sam Witwer wasn't the dude who kneeled before the bacta tank. Darth Vader's apprentice is still a concept which fits with canon, IMHO.

Plus he'd love to do it.
 
CT Phipps said:
The Empire robs poor planets (Jedha) to enrich rich planets (Coruscant). It's an Empire. It's kind of in the name. Also, the Empire doesn't believe in Order.

VADER believes in Order.

It's really more a way for the Elite to help themselves to power.

Why the First Order is different since all of them actually believe in the doctrine.
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So the First Order is actually looking into order and such?
 
I thought Vader just believed in Power and porking Nataly Portman while also playing very loose with rules. The first 2 are very relatable positions, however.
 
A nice theory (non-canon of course) is that the Emperor created the Empire and is rapidly expanding to defend the galaxy from the Yuuzhan Vong, who he saw in a vision. For purely selfish reasons of course. Also, the Empire aren't that bad, if you don't cross them. They seem very lax on their planets as long as you obey their rules. They don't seem to directly mess around with the lives of their citizens, though I'm sure this is only applicable to the Outer Rim. A lot of the bad things the Empire does it to put down rebellion, in extreme and terrifying ways.
 
Zerginfestor said:
So the First Order is actually looking into order and such?
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Yeah, the way they're setting it up is all of the First Order is raised from birth to believe in the whole Empire idealogy. Plus, Chuck Wennig has the guy founding it eliminating all the corrupt and incompetent Imperials. The FO is basically Hydra.
 
So the Empire is barely even a thing in the lives of anyone. Is the whole "Rebels vs Empire" thing just some personal game the Organas started with Palpatine for shits and giggles?
 
Also, if one reads the Imperial Handbook you can learn more about them. For example, Tarkin wrote a section in it detailing the plans and ideals of the Empire, and yes they're fascists all right. War is the natural state of things, and the Empire must expand to stay relevant and escape stagnancy.
Walpknut said:
So the Empire is barely even a thing in the lives of anyone. Is the whole "Rebels vs Empire" thing just some personal game the Organas started with Palpatine for shits and giggles?
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Umm, where did you get this whole 'barely a thing' from? They're there and if they want to mess with you they damn well will. They also tend to exploit aliens for slaves...
 
Dr Fallout said:
A nice theory (non-canon of course) is that the Emperor created the Empire and is rapidly expanding to defend the galaxy from the Yuuzhan Vong, who he saw in a vision. For purely selfish reasons of course. Also, the Empire aren't that bad, if you don't cross them. They seem very lax on their planets as long as you obey their rules. They don't seem to directly mess around with the lives of their citizens, though I'm sure this is only applicable to the Outer Rim. A lot of the bad things the Empire does it to put down rebellion, in extreme and terrifying ways.
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I disagree with this position as Luke is a dirt farmer in the middle of the ass end of the galaxy but his position is that he'd love to sign up for the Rebellion to murder these guys. The death of the Emperor is also met with rejoicing even on his home planet.

Walpknut said:
So the Empire is barely even a thing in the lives of anyone. Is the whole "Rebels vs Empire" thing just some personal game the Organas started with Palpatine for shits and giggles?
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Well, from the movies, they've used the Atomic Doomsday Ray to blow up:

Space Jerusalem
Space Switzerland
Space Caribbean

They also randomly murder a bunch of Jawas to frame Sandpeople (inciting ethnic hatred) as well as a bunch of farmers on a mission which really could have been solved by asking where the droids were. There's also the fact they've canonically reintroduced slavery and we see they have gulags too in the opening of Rogue One.

It seems the Empire is a bunch of asshats.
 
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