Submarine Mod

[Demonslayer]

My personal opinion, i think the best choice would be:

- get player to know coordinates on where the sub is;
- use the boat to get there;
- when player gets there he'll realise the sub is still underwater (some map with the boat and water around it, maybe some rocks like these on the surface, the coast is near so the survivors got there swiming);
- Player has to go back to get some items to go underwater (armor (PA? Environmental armor? skafander?) rope, oxigen bottle (like the one on New Reno?), etc);
- When player returns attach things and go underwater (alone);
- reaches a new map where you can see the submarine outside (like in that pic with it on the shore on the last page), hopefully we will be able to still see the rope;
- map will have to be very dark and player must use flares;
- (the sub might be in a sand ramp to be easier to shot the torpedos);
- player enter from lowest level, which is flooded;

> > i believe that if there's oxygen inside water doesnt fill it all, does it? I mean if you turn upside down a cup in water, water wont get in. Seen many underwater caves under this circunstances. So basing in this principle player will be able to walk in sub without flooding other rooms.

- Player enters and notices that certain rooms don't have computers nor walls (removed to construct SF);


And so on..

 

[Bahktinx]

This is a long post.

Here is a summary: The Sub Mod doesn't have to be about settling canon or deciding on the right backstory. Find a story that makes the sub itself interesting and people will want to play that. How does the player approach sub? Remember, the sub is the Shi's Vault 13. Read on for more.

Hi, you might remember me from earlier in the thread (pg 11, 12ish?). Suggested rings? Thought that the Shi palace being built of out of sub parts suited Fallout's themes, and argued that that's more important than realism? You do? Great.

It seems like one of the central hangups of the project is whether or not the Steel Palace is actually built out of the sub. It seems clear that at the very least, the Emperor came out of the sub. But it still seems like we're having trouble settling the debate either way. So why not forget about it?

The Sub Mod doesn't have to be about settling canon or deciding on the right backstory. There can be plenty of backstory without getting mired in this controversy. The Shi's story about the Steel Palace origins doesn't have to be a lie and it doesn't have to be truth. Everyone agrees the sub crashed, so work from there. There doesn't have to be evidence of how exactly the Steel Palace was built. There can be plenty of interesting pre-war backstory without settling that issue. Find a story that makes the sub itself interesting and people will want to play that.

The way the player approaches the sub seems like another hangup. You have the player-traverses ocean floor faction, the instant boat teleport faction, and probably more I haven't paid attention to. It seems like the ocean floor business is too much work for too little payoff, and the boat teleport turns the sub into an abstraction for the player. Each has somehow been invested with the way the sub should look, e.g. deconstructed exterior, vs no exterior at all. I came up with an alternative to these, based on the idea that the sub is basically the Shi's Vault 13. This is where they came from, where they were once safe, and emerged from into the sunlight of a very different kind of world. So why not make the approach similar to the original Vault 13? In a cave. How about this.

Player gets location of sub. Player goes there. It is the entrance to a cave. The cave has a scrap of metal near the entrance that says CSS SHI-HUANG-TI, so the Player knows that this is no ordinary cave. Maybe there is a trail of metal and parts leading into the cave (the path of the Emperor being dragged out). Maybe the cave is infested with radscorpions or something else (so there are no NPCs). Eventually, the cave leads either outside to an isolated inlet where the sub is partially beached, and first level exposed to open air (rings approach), or there is a pool of water maybe the conning tower of the sub sticking through or maybe just a hatch, so no exterior of sub has to be seen, the Player just clicks.

This might seem a bit unlikely or contrived ("they just managed to find this one special cave---bullshit!"). But Fallout is the story of the unlikelier bits of humanity surviving in unlikely ways. Also remember that FO2 players that install the mod will know that they are installing a mod that adds a submarine. If the mod tries to make the sub approach super real, that will come across as contrived too. Don't worry about the approach. Worry about the sub first. It would be a shame to see all the hard work and thought that's already been invested go to waste because of petty disagreement. Hope my suggestions aren't too presumptuous for someone not working on the project.

Good luck!

Edit: Also, I don't want to impede the progress of the mod, but it might be a good idea to figure out exactly what you all want the mod to be before you keep making artwork. That way, nothing gets wasted, and there's no risk of anyone's feelings getting hurt because something goes unused. Not to be condescending or anything.

 

[Dravean]

I think the above poster might be on the right track.

But anyway, I just wanted to say that I'm against the idea of walking on the sea floor. I just don't think it would be pulled off well at all.

Also, no ghosts, and no AI missiles.

However, I do agree that it'd be a shame not to get to see at least some tiny portion of the sub exterior. I'm not saying seeing the whole thing displayed and deconstructed, I mean just a little corner of it or something with some kind of hatch or entry point that the player can click on and enter.

 

[Continuum]

The problem is that is really hard to fit the sub in San Francisco location and avoid a total idiocy/adding/changing a lot of things which will be considered as Bible raping...



1st scenario which was considered:

200 years old sub is standing in docks (without any reason) with some mutated monsters on the board and active targeting systems just because player is suppose to use the Tanker Idiocy! It's nothing more than just copy & paste situation on the Tanker - "basement" is filled with bad ass monsters, because there's a quest to save a girlfriend of some guy (because she was stupid enough to go into the "basement" and her fucking mother told her to not go there! ). This only shows how bad SF is designed.




Current one (based on Fallout Bible) - still idiocy, because of questions: why such old sub isn't of out power? or why isn't totally flooded? or why targeting systems are still active?, but fuck that:

- there's a Chinese sub,
- ruder is broken,
- slowly is starting to drift,
- Shi left the sub,
- they're returning back few times to take some of hi-tech stuff,
- they're making the sub submerged to prevent any unauthorized access to it,
- only small of part of the sail is visible over the water (if necessary then they can enter inside),
- reactor is still active and targeting systems are on,
- active sonar in pinging for searching potential targets,
- no talking and thinking computers on the board,
- computer attached to sonar is creating a signature of each signal,
- since there's no crew on the board which could decide what to do, program is loaded into targeting systems:

procedure attack_target
	if signature_is_present_in_data_base then
		fire_torpedo/missile
	else
		do_nothing
procedure_end

- in data base there's no signature of small boats because such thing isn't a threat/isn't worth of wasting damn torpedoes!




To avoid why to hell Shi left targeting systems active? how to hell after all these years sub isn't totally flooded? questions story should be developed/changed:

1st version:

- Shi don't care about the sub, so hi-tech stuff is stripped,
- targeting systems are disabled,
- Enclave is spotting the sub,
- they're slowly starting to adding/enabling all systems inside,
- they're doing all necessary conservation to prevent flooding, etc.
- why to hell they're doing this? Because there are powerful warheads which can be used against the muties!


2nd version:

- Shi care about sub,
- they're secretly keeping the sub "alive", so in any time they can use warheads on the board against their opponents,
- because of that some interesting puzzles to solve can be added into the crappy SF.



Plain and fucking simple!

 

[Bahktinx]

To avoid why to hell Shi left targeting systems active? how to hell after all these years sub isn't totally flooded?

Why does this need to be avoided? The sub isn't flooded/partially flooded/whatever you end up deciding because its a nuclear submarine. They're built to last. And the targeting system? Maybe the targeting system has its own power source. Who knows. My point is, there's plenty of elastic in the fiction of the sub to make anything work. Making things complicated is great, but make sure that these complications are interesting. As a player, I don't care how the sub is wired and which yellow a4 wire went to the Emperor, and which to the targeting system. The gameplay of Fallout is hardly deep enough to make caring about individual wires compelling or interesting in any way.

they can use warheads on the board against their opponents

This is getting closer to what makes the sub worth exploring. An artifact of the war exploited to perpetuate war is as Fallout as Fallout gets. The sub needs to be interesting, not just because the player has to go there or else be blown up. It needs to be interesting in itself.[/quote]

 

[Continuum]

This is getting closer to what makes the sub worth exploring. An artifact of the war exploited to perpetuate war is as Fallout as Fallout gets. The sub needs to be interesting, not just because the player has to go there or else be blown up. It needs to be interesting in itself.

I'm pointing it out from a long time! But it's like -->

Everything is running around: how we made our shitty looking city from submarine! or around eyecandys or Fallout Bible raping...

With the 2nd version (1st could be predictable since Enclave are bad asses) implemented everything make sense and purpose of the sub is something more than just sink the Tanker thing! As I already said, because of that you can insert interesting story to discover/puzzles to solve, not just I must disarm fucking torpedoes!

 

[Dravean]

2nd version:

- Shi care about sub,
- they're secretly keeping the sub "alive", so in any time they can use warheads on the board against their opponents,
- because of that some interesting puzzles to solve can be added into the crappy SF.

Works for me.

 

[Continuum]

However, I do agree that it'd be a shame not to get to see at least some tiny portion of the sub exterior. I'm not saying seeing the whole thing displayed and deconstructed, I mean just a little corner of it or something with some kind of hatch or entry point that the player can click on and enter.

I want to make such thing in the middle of the ocean!



But there will be a problem with overcrowd thing, so I asked about implementing Lexx's solution, but I didn't get any answer because everyone is busy with thinking about 1000 possible ideas how to see whole sub (including underwater walking!) or how to make stupid fucking retarded dialogues how we made our shitty looking city from submarine! valid!


I'll merge whole 3d render with water tiles and I'll get something like this:



underwater part is nicely visible... so some part of the sail will be also visible under the water.

 

[Bahktinx]

2nd version:

- Shi care about sub,
- they're secretly keeping the sub "alive", so in any time they can use warheads on the board against their opponents,
- because of that some interesting puzzles to solve can be added into the crappy SF.

Works for me.

Yick. Involving the Shi too much with the sub means resolving the whole Steel Palace debate.

The Shi are boring anyways. They don't need to be involved with the sub anymore. They took the Emperor and whatever else, and left. Besides, the Shi don't really have any real opponents to speak of. There's too many holes in this, and too many reasons it doesn't make a compelling story. Also, the sub is now in the middle of the ocean? What? How on earth are they meant to have gotten to San Francisco? It's a little difficult to swim while lugging a supercomputer about. This idea leads to too many complications that are implausible.

That said, I think the factions wanting the warheads/bits of sub is compelling, just not the Shi faction. They don't seem interested in wasteland dominance, unlike NCR or VC.

 

[Continuum]

The Shi are boring anyways.

Boring? They're retarded! Another awful design decision filled with awful graphics... Maybe idea is good, but the way it's done...

Also, the sub is now in the middle of the ocean? What? How on earth are they meant to have gotten to San Francisco? It's a little difficult to swim while lugging a supercomputer about. This idea leads to too many complications that are implausible.

I meant no ground around the sub, only water there's no such map in Fallout. I know that sub is placed in shallow waters of SF...

That said, I think the factions wanting the warheads/bits of sub is compelling, just not the Shi faction. They don't seem interested in wasteland dominance, unlike NCR or VC.

I doubt this is going to be implemented...

 

[Ravager69]

I've been wondering why does Enclave care so much about the damn tanker - couldn't they put a small garrison onboard instead of a masterplan to sink it in case someone stole the FOBOS AND get the fuel?

*sigh*


Alright I have an idea. The sub is still sailable (let's just say SOMEONE, either shi or enclave or both keep it in a fairly good shape), but the engines went to hell (both the reactor and the diesel engine). Unfortunatly for the player. it's on a crash course with the tanker. The bay is narrow or the sub is placed the way you can't avoid it. Naturally you have to move it if you want to reach teh Enclave via the tanker.

The choices the player would get would be:

- sink the sub
- repair the nuclear reactor (epic quest), then he can try to sail it to the rig but fails somehow
- repair the diesel engine and get the fuel and send it to it's death, because the hull is too rusted to withstand another trip

The whole idea is to put the sub in the way by some annoying coincident instead of a evil organisation's masterplan.

 

[fortyseven]

I just wanted to say that, regardless of how you end up resolving the access to the sub, the latest version of the boat is by far the best looking fan created graphical content for Fallout that I haver ever seen! Great work and thanks for doing this!

 

[Demonslayer]

So my previous post makes no sense? *sob*

edit:
The small boat is even great-er

 

[Darek]

Chances of submarine reappearing in this game: 0%

Maybe the Emperor is right.
Anyway, a few thoughts...

Ken Lee says there are people who say there is no submarine. Listening to him I would say a sub at the docks is out. Cause everyone would know about it then.

It's not stated that it will fire at just any boat or boats leaving SF for that matter.
It will fire at any AMERICAN vessel that comes near it. China and the US were at war after all.
If the automatic defense system wasn't active already, the Shi most likely would have turned it on when they abandoned the sub (to protect the sub and or themselves from any naval threats).

From the first page in this thread I saw these:

Second, the submarine is kind of unfitting, because the tanker has been used previously, to estabilish the Navarro base. Why wasn't it destroyed then?

And...

The Shi were able to salvage the Emperor from the sub so it couldn't be on the bottom.

I couldn't find anything on this in the bible or game files I looked at, so either I missed it or it is incorrect.
Anyone who knows? Especially that the Emperor was brought from the sub seems widely believed, but is it ever actually mentioned anywhere?

I've been wondering why does Enclave care so much about the damn tanker - couldn't they put a small garrison onboard instead of a masterplan to sink it in case someone stole the FOBOS AND get the fuel?

They care about the tanker cause it allows people access to the oil platform. Again, a Chinese sub with a Chinese defense system against American vessels. I cannot believe the enclave were ever intended to be part of that, then it wouldn't have been pointed out that it's a threat to AMERICAN vessels specifically.

But there will be a problem with overcrowd thing, so I asked about implementing Lexx's solution

The most practical way to solve the overcrowding problem would be to to have your party members wait at the docs for you and rejoin when you come back, all done automatically just like when you sleep with one of the Bishop women. Otherwise you can't ditch Davin, Miria or Pariah dog.

The bible says the sub fires missiles, not torpedoes, so from that perspective it doesn't matter if the sub is on land or in/under water does it?

If the sub was partly beached, isn't it possible that it later got either moved gradually by currents and high/low tides over time, or moved on purpose by the shi (or someone else if you must)?
Wouldn't that satisfy the people saying the Shi couldn't have salvaged stuff from the sub if it's not on the beach?

I personally hate the idea that the shi stripped the metal from the sub to build the steel palace. It does not look like that at all, and frankly I doubt if this would be true there would be anything left of the sub.
Ken Lee says the metal, not some of the metal... He also says some do not believe this. I guess I'm one of them.

I think the Shi secretly taking care of the sub can be a good idea, if you can come up with an interesting story.
Some of them might have been planning to return to China one day, that would be reasonable but hardly interesting.

 

[Tagaziel]

Way I figure it, a way to explain the sub's targetting systems becoming active, would be to have the player's actions (such as diverting fuel) cause it to become a threat.

The fuel is transferred, somewhere down the road a glitch in the systems cause the submarine to become active and the PMV Valdez refuses to set sail, since it detects an active submarine in the vincinity (the gutted Shih-huang-ti).

 

[UniversalWolf]

Just for the sake of discussion...

I thought of another possible way to reach the sub: via diving bell.

 

[Glovz]

I have been giving this some thought as I read over all the latest responses. Here are my final suggestions/thoughts that might tie things together:

Back story facts:
- the Shi palace is NOT made with metal from the Sub, thus the Sub is NOT partially deconstructed (I had to concede this plot point)
- the story of the palace being made with metal from the Sub was to hide the fact that a small sub-faction of the Shi (need a name!) working with the Brotherhood of Steel have been maintaining the Sub
- the Sub is docked (not beached) in a small, not easy to find cove, near SF but NOT in SF (hence how it can remain secret)
- the Emperor system is from the Sub, big hole on the first level or portion of floor with cut/stripped wires sticking out on first level to back this up
- remaining in the Sub are the backup systems separated throughout the Sub, nuclear engine computer/system (3rd Level back end of Sub), weapons computer/system (3rd Level front end of sub), communications computer/system (2nd Level), and navigational computer/system (1st Level) (even in real life these systems would exist separate from the main system for various reasons)
- other computers that may exist on any floor are non-functional (dummy terminals that were wired to the main computer/Emperor once upon a time)
- the cove where the Sub is docked can be accessed by small boat (powered by Fusion Cells - D only) or by secret cave system/maze (enter one end somewhere in the wasteland, come out the other end in the cove)
- the Sub has no torpedoes left (taken long ago or all used previously), but does have 1 missile, four launch tubes exist (extend from the 3rd to the top/exterior of the Sub)
- no flooding in any level
- robots spread through out the Sub (new type)


Quests/tasks (conditions to succeed or fail and xp given are yet to be determined):
1- deactivate weapons system
- weapons system on the Sub is set to fire on the Tanker specifically should it leave the docks in SF (need a reason! sabotage? or maybe something along the line Mikael Grizzly suggested)
- this quest would become essential to complete to have a good ending for Arroyo, but not to finishing the game
- quest given by (need character!)
- if completed successfully then Tanker is safe
- if attempted and failed then the Tanker is destroyed at the SF docks immediately (can no longer go there and any associated quests if the player has them are failed/crossed off and/or cannot be gotten if the player does not have them yet)
- if not attempted and the player attempts to take the Tanker to the Enclave then player dies, end of game (player needs to find out somehow there is a risk to taking the Tanker even after getting the fuel???)
- if not attempted and the player takes the vertibird to the Enclave, player and npcs can escape Enclave same way, but anyone else (Arroyo survivors) would be dead assuming the Tanker was the only other means out/off (bad/no ending for Arroyo)

2- Trip to China by Shi and BOS
- optional quest given by (need character!)
- repair/update/upgrade or sabotage navigational system
- repair engine system or rig to blow up
- player found out (need character!) was part of the sub-faction and was asked to help
- evil option, plot course for South Pole, new bad ending, Sub lost and never heard from again
- good option, plot course for China, new good ending, Shi establish new trade with survivors in China, BOS establish new outpost
- if completed and two months pass before the player gets to the Enclave then quest 1 is no longer obtainable (character who would give quest 1 leaves on Sub for wherever) and/or gets crossed out (Sub leaves and is no longer a problem)

3- use communications system, contact Enclave (like in Gecko)
- optional task
- pretend to be one of them and inform them you found the SAD as requested, bad ending for New Reno no matter what else you may have done and/or new bad ending for NCR (at war with Enclave in their new base established in the SAD)
- mess up and Enclave locate the Sub, after some time (2hrs?) they show up

If quest 1 completed but not 2 or 2 completed but engine system destroyed then semi-bad new ending for Shi, hopes dashed to ever be re-united with China.

 

[Continuum]

From the first page in this thread I saw these:

Second, the submarine is kind of unfitting, because the tanker has been used previously, to estabilish the Navarro base. Why wasn't it destroyed then?

Thank you for another argument to my theory is really hard to fit the sub in San Francisco location and avoid a total idiocy/adding/changing a lot of things which will be considered as Bible raping... !

The bible says the sub fires missiles, not torpedoes, so from that perspective it doesn't matter if the sub is on land or in/under water does it?

Yeah, but sub which is "hidden" works little a bit better, because of that Enclave have less chances to spot it and take a control over the warheads.

If the sub was partly beached, isn't it possible that it later got either moved gradually by currents and high/low tides over time, or moved on purpose by the shi (or someone else if you must)?
Wouldn't that satisfy the people saying the Shi couldn't have salvaged stuff from the sub if it's not on the beach?

Then you'll have a total wreck lying on the bottom of shallow waters, because most of it has been stripped to build the city. And if it was totally stripped to build whole city than only targeting systems and warheads left? Again, because the player is going to use the Tanker?

Way I figure it, a way to explain the sub's targetting systems becoming active, would be to have the player's actions (such as diverting fuel) cause it to become a threat.

How the sub could know about that? Even talking and thinking computer on the board (which is not going to happen) could have a problem to figure it out!

The fuel is transferred, somewhere down the road a glitch in the systems cause the submarine to become active and the PMV Valdez refuses to set sail, since it detects an active submarine in the vincinity (the gutted Shih-huang-ti).

Follow by your logic Tanker already should be on bottom of the docks because if refuses to sail because is able to detect the sub and if is able to detect the sub then sub is able to detect the Tanker and if the sub is able to detect the Tanker then is able to sink it!

I thought of another possible way to reach the sub: via diving bell.

More ideas how to get to the sub:

- underwater tunnel,
- smaller submarine,
- player jumps from Vertibird on parachute.

 

[Bahktinx]

I thought of another possible way to reach the sub: via diving bell.

More ideas how to get to the sub:

- underwater tunnel,
- smaller submarine,
- player jumps from Vertibird on parachute.

I just hope both of you were joking.

 

[Tagaziel]

How the sub could know about that? Even talking and thinking computer on the board (which is not going to happen) could have a problem to figure it out!

Let's see: you're transferring fuel through a 160 year old, rusty pipeline system. Somewhere down the line, it malfunctions after the fuel passes, parts collapse hit the water, crush the submerged hulk, triggering the targetting system and activating the torpedoes.

Follow by your logic Tanker already should be on bottom of the docks because if refuses to sail because is able to detect the sub and if is able to detect the sub then sub is able to detect the Tanker and if the sub is able to detect the Tanker then is able to sink it!

...is my writing imcomprehensible, or what?

I said "becoming active due to the player's actions". It wasn't active before, since it was a rusting, gutted hulk below the waves - only once the tanker was being fueled up, the malfunctioning fuel transfer system activated the Chinese sub by accident.

The submarine was cannibalized by the Shi over the years, it's quite obvious. It doesn't need to be ultra high tech looking - just a rusted ghost ship, a reminder of an age long past.