Super Mutants: An Article on what Bethesda has done with them in Fallout 4

[Mr Fish]

Because they're one of the foremost research institutes in the United States of the time, also working on military technologies?

Yeah that's a cop-out excuse of an argument if I ever heard one. No, they can not simply have access to FEV because "*handwave* reasons". FEV was explicitly stated to have been developed at West-Tek first and then moved to a facility that was constructed for the sole purpose of testing purposes of the substance, Mariposa. They wanted to keep it on the down-low, keeping it on the down-low is not sending it to three different facilities led by three different subgroups of the american government. (No wonder West-Tek got nuked...) That it magically got into a vault is ludicrous but that MIT got a hold of it cause they science yo is awful writing. If MIT got access to FEV don't you think it would've been stated in the data we can retrieve from West-Tek in Fallout 1? What, they mentioned the super secret specially constructed facility but not fucking MIT (or Vault-Tec for that matter...)? And if all they got was the research data then that is still moronic. Why would a fucking college get access to super cereal secret bio-engineering? Cause they MIT yo? Dreck. Absolute dreck of writing.

Now, if The Institute got the FEV from Vault 87 on the other hand, then it at least makes slightly more sense but even that comes with its share of details that makes no sense. How did they know FEV was researched at Vault 87? How did they get access to its computers when it is completely destroyed? How would they get a fresh sample of FEV if they decided to infiltrate it? You expect me to believe that they sent a group of synths over to the Capital Wasteland to retrieve a sample and didn't get their stupid robot faces stomped in by a behemoth? The entrance to the Vault is completely guarded and sealed and Little Lamplight would probably mention if a bunch of Synth Gen 2's wandered through their home to get access to the backdoor. Or did they just teleport in all zipety-zoop like a master-class ninja and snatch a sample?

I mean, it's not like FEV is in a gift-shop at the entrance of the vault, it resides deep inside in the research labs. So no matter what way the synths got in they would still have to face off against Super Mutants. Wouldn't there be some dead synths around Vault 87 if that was the case? Even if Vault 87 is used as an excuse it still doesn't add up with the lore we have.

No, Tag, it doesn't make any damn sense for them to simple 'have' FEV because they MIT yo. There has to be an explanation. I mean you whined about Jet being created by cow-dung but at the very least Myron is explained. Even if you don't like the explanation there is still an explanation for why Jet is able to exist, which is far more than The Institute got.



On a side-note, Tag, you're into the Fallout 4 lore so I'm really curious about something. You know the mayor of Diamond City? He's a synth. But when they infiltrate with synths the original person disappears. Soooo... Where are all the original people that have gone missing? Did the Institute use their bodies as bio-logical goo for the synth creation process?

 

[Ragemage]

snip

Let's also not forget that the use of FEV was so repulsive and vile to normal people that the second the army guarding West Tek found out was going on, they not only revolted, they killed every single scientist involved and went on to form the Brotherhood of Steel. Let's also not forget that FEV, in West Tek, was primarily used on death row prison inmates and the like to test it. So there's even less reason as to why a college, even if it is one of the best technological colleges in the world, would have access to a substance so sinister it made even the guards of the project rise up in revolution.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Let's also not forget that the use of FEV was so repulsive and vile to normal people that the second the army guarding West Tek found out was going on, they not only revolted, they killed every single scientist involved and went on to form the Brotherhood of Steel. Let's also not forget that FEV, in West Tek, was primarily used on death row prison inmates and the like to test it. So there's even less reason as to why a college, even if it is one of the best technological colleges in the world, would have access to a substance so vile it made even the guards of the project rise up in revolution.

It also lead to the suicides (forced or willing) of some of the scientific staff in West Tek. The scientists themselves were disgusted by their research and ethics, showing intense security not only among it's guardians and military but parts of the research body itself.

Think about, this project is so secret that several scientists and all the guards have no idea what they're dealing with, and yet according to Fallout 3 and 4 it was given to MIT and Vault Tek.

 

[Mr Fish]

Oh... I know what the Nuka World DLC is gonna be about now.

 

[Ragemage]

I may have to read them again but my impression was FEV project was done for then resurrected by Shaun (possibly to find a cure for his disease that's why he kept Virgil in the dark)

The problem is that literally makes no sense in the context of the story. Why would he try and use FEV experiments to figure out how to cure his body, when he already has the perfect framework on how to cure himself? KELLOGG.

Kellogg is still fully in charge of his body, his mind, and so forth. He is not a synth, he is a human being with cybernetic enhancements. He is also quite literally immortal, being immune to disease and impervious to dying of old age, as we can clearly see by the fact that he looks exactly the same as he did when he kidnapped Shaun from Vault 111, 60 years prior to when our protagonist exits the vault.

So when Father sees this FEV is creating giant green abominations instead of actual decent results, does he stop the FEV experiments and just decide to have the Institute use the same technology on him that they used on Kellogg to cure him? No. Instead Father continues using FEV experiments for practically no reason and SHUTS DOWN the experiments that were used to make Kellogg unable to die of natural causes.

If you can get around that massive plot hole, please enlighten me, because to me it's probably the biggest in the game. He had perfectly good technology to fix his cancer via Kellogg's transplants, and yet he decides to can the WORKING experiment and focus on FEV, which not only fails but leads to a massive Super Mutant population that nearly wipes out the inner city areas of the Commonwealth.

And please don't give me any crap about him wanting to retain his humanity, that's the flimsiest excuse I've ever heard. Put this into perspective: He won't give himself a few new robo body parts, but he'd be willing to dunk himself in a big ole vat of FEV which could potentially turn him into a hulking green monster for basically the same effect of not getting cancer?

I'm not trying to be malicious here, I just genuinely want to understand the logic behind this, because from my viewpoint, there's 0.

 

[Dr Fallout]

The problem is that literally makes no sense in the context of the story. Why would he try and use FEV experiments to figure out how to cure his body, when he already has the perfect framework on how to cure himself? KELLOGG.

Kellogg is still fully in charge of his body, his mind, and so forth. He is not a synth, he is a human being with cybernetic enhancements. He is also quite literally immortal, immune to disease, and impervious to dying of old age, as we can clearly see by the fact that he looks exactly the same as he did when he kidnapped Shaun from Vault 111, 60 years prior to when our protagonist exits the vault.

So when he sees this FEV is creating giant green abominations instead of actual decent results, does he stop the FEV experiments and just decide to have the Institute use the same technology on him that they used on Kellogg to cure him? No. Instead Father continues using FEV experiments for practically no reason and SHUTS DOWN the experiments that were used to make Kellogg unable to die of natural causes.

If you can get around that massive plot hole, please enlighten me, because to me it's probably the biggest in the game. He had perfectly good technology to fix his cancer via Kellogg's transplants, and yet he decides to can the WORKING experiment and focus on FEV, which not only fails but leads to a massive Super Mutant population that nearly wipes out the inner city areas of the Commonwealth.

And please don't give me any crap about him wanting to retain his humanity, that's the flimsiest excuse I've ever heard. Put this into perspective: He won't give himself a few new robo body parts, but he'd be willing to dunk himself in a big ole vat of FEV which could potentially turn him into a hulking green monster for basically the same effect of not getting cancer?

And yet the Institute was meant to be smart.

 

[Theinnerfish]

The problem is that literally makes no sense in the context of the story. Why would he try and use FEV experiments to figure out how to cure his body, when he already has the perfect framework on how to cure himself? KELLOGG.

Well there is no indication that Kellogg's implants can cure cancer. While it's clear that FEV makes its subjects immune to all kind of genetic defects and diseases.

Kellogg is still fully in charge of his body, his mind, and so forth. He is not a synth, he is a human being with cybernetic enhancements. He is also quite literally immortal, immune to disease, and impervious to dying of old age, as we can clearly see by the fact that he looks exactly the same as he did when he kidnapped Shaun from Vault 111, 60 years prior to when our protagonist exits the vault.

Kellogg is not immortal; he will(would) live a very long life(up 200 years) but he'll die. Also Kellogg was an unique individual; he was skilled, ruthless and experienced. Unlike high level synths(like a Course) he can't be mass produced. On the other had Coursers are both superior combatant than Kellogg and can be mass produced with foreseeable results.

So when Father sees this FEV is creating giant green abominations instead of actual decent results, does he stop the FEV experiments and just decide to have the Institute use the same technology on him that they used on Kellogg to cure him? No. Instead Father continues using FEV experiments for practically no reason and SHUTS DOWN the experiments that were used to make Kellogg unable to die of natural causes.

He can't resurrect the project he the just shut down. Doing so would be used as case against the Synth program. There is already a biological program lead to third gen synths. Using it makes sense. Considering Virgil was able retain his body and mind(after his cure) while keeping the positive effects of FEV i wouldn't say this was failure.

If you can get around that massive plot hole, please enlighten me, because to me it's probably the biggest in the game. He had perfectly good technology to fix his cancer via Kellogg's transplants, and yet he decides to can the WORKING experiment and focus on FEV, which not only fails but leads to a massive Super Mutant population that nearly wipes out the inner city areas of the Commonwealth.

And please don't give me any crap about him wanting to retain his humanity, that's the flimsiest excuse I've ever heard. Put this into perspective: He won't give himself a few new robo body parts, but he'd be willing to dunk himself in a big ole vat of FEV which could potentially turn him into a hulking green monster for basically the same effect of not getting cancer?

As i said implants don't cure cancer. FEV project aimed to retain the both body and mind.

He'd simply be like a conservative politician who won the elections by saying he's against the stem cell experiments but moment he turns up to be cancer funds such project.

 

[Ragemage]

Kellogg is not immortal; he will(would) live a very long life(up 200 years) but he'll die. Also Kellogg was unique individual; he was skilled, ruthless and experienced. Unlike high level synths(like a Course) he can't be mass produced on the other had a Courser is superior combatant than Kellogg and they can be produced with foreseeable results.

Fair enough, I agree with what you're trying to say, but it's never stated anywhere that Kellogg CAN die of old age. As far as we know, based off what's presented in the game, he can't die of old age. There's no reason to believe he can, he's been alive over 60 years after the implants with no change to his body. None at all. His hair isn't even more gray, he's the exact same model as the one who kidnapped your baby.

The other problem would be that why wouldn't they even try? If these implants made Kellogg unable to die of old age, then maybe it can stop diseases like cancer as well. We don't know how much of the body this experiment replaces, besides the brain. And that's a huge problem, we don't know. Father is extremely important to the Institute, in fact he's basically the foundation of the Institute we see in game. I would think they would try basically everything to try and cure "Dear Leader" over here, which includes what Kellogg went through. Kellogg was a special case, I'm not arguing that, but the point stands that Father is THE most important person at the Institute, so it makes no sense that they wouldn't even try to use what they used on Kellogg on Father. Father can say no, but if an organization like the Institute really did exist and relied on Father so much, I feel like they would find a way to force him to do it. They pretty much need Father for synth production until you come along.

Implants may or may not cure cancer, we don't know how far the experiments with Kellogg went as it's never explained. The point is, it clearly makes someone live a very, very long time without the negative side effects, such as being ghoulized. It just doesn't add up that Father would drop Kellogg's experiment but then immediately jump on board the FEV train and allow THOUSANDS of innocent people to be turned into massive green monsters in the hopes he'll find something to cure his cancer without being de-humanized/having any part of him replaced. I think a lot of problems could be cleared up if they had just explained Kellogg's implants and how exactly he was able to stay the exact same age as over 60 years ago without being a synth.

Come to think of it, maybe that's the point of the game. Now this is just conjecture, but hear me out, I feel like this explains a lot: Father is a complete hypocrite by not wanting to modify his body through implants or mutation, but he does so because he wants to stay completely human. Instead, he would rather kill thousands of people until he gets a pure strain of FEV that can cure him of cancer with no negative side effects. It's meant to make him look like the bad guy. He's putting tons of people on the line just so he can stay "pure". After all, the whole reason Father was captured in the first place is because of his pure, unirradiated genes. He would totally have a mindset towards "I can't be mutated, I need to stay pure!" and so forth. It makes a lot of sense and would explain why Father's such an asshole. I like that theory a lot, and it would actually fix quite a few plot holes. He's doing all of this because in his warped mindset, he needs to stay absolutely purely human, and everyone else is just a means to an end in order for him to achieve this goal. If he becomes modified in anyway, then the Institute is a failure in his eyes.

 

[0wing]

He's doing all of this because in his warped mindset, he needs to stay absolutely purely human, and everyone else is just a means to an end in order for him to achieve this goal. If he becomes modified in anyway, then the Institute is a failure in his eyes.

Yet the FEV modifies the DNA, so he can't be pure anyway. It's all a matter of 2 chairs. And he knows it.
WTF Emil.

 

[Tagaziel]

Resilience? Ever heard of robots and metal? Or force fields? They can make teleportation and synths, so why not that too?

Because a damaged synth will heal back on its own, while robots need manpower and resources to be fixed up? Because a synth can use human tools, while robots need to have theirs customized and their manipulators will never have the fidelity and precision of human fingers? It's like you're being purposefully dumb with this.

don't you think it would've been stated in the data we can retrieve from West-Tek in Fallout 1?

By that logic, I assume you hate everything released after Fallout, especially the Enclave, New Reno, Redding, Den, Vault City, Modoc, Marcus, etc. etc. because it wasn't mentioned in Fallout 1.

Why would a fucking college get access to super cereal secret bio-engineering?

Because it does research for the military? Like Cambridge Polymer Labs?

No, Tag, it doesn't make any damn sense for them to simple 'have' FEV because they MIT yo. There has to be an explanation. I mean you whined about Jet being created by cow-dung but at the very least Myron is explained. Even if you don't like the explanation there is still an explanation for why Jet is able to exist, which is far more than The Institute got.

Except a moronic explanation is no explanation at all. You seem to hate Fallout 4's writing, but when Fallout 2 does even worse, by providing a handwave that doesn't make any sense on any level, you give it a pass. Fanboy much?

On a side-note, Tag, you're into the Fallout 4 lore so I'm really curious about something. You know the mayor of Diamond City? He's a synth. But when they infiltrate with synths the original person disappears. Soooo... Where are all the original people that have gone missing? Did the Institute use their bodies as bio-logical goo for the synth creation process?

They're disposed of. Your point?

Kellogg is still fully in charge of his body, his mind, and so forth. He is not a synth, he is a human being with cybernetic enhancements. He is also quite literally immortal, being immune to disease and impervious to dying of old age, as we can clearly see by the fact that he looks exactly the same as he did when he kidnapped Shaun from Vault 111, 60 years prior to when our protagonist exits the vault.

Where is it stated that Kellogg is immortal or immune to disease? The fact that the Institute extended his lifespan doesn't mean it's extended indefinitely - or that Kellogg's mind is equipped to cope with being that old.

[qupte]He had perfectly good technology to fix his cancer via Kellogg's transplants, and yet he decides to can the WORKING experiment and focus on FEV, [/QUOTE]

Which makes this point kind of strange. Father could keep himself going through increasingly... Radical means, but he didn't want to sacrifice that. It's understandable. You can't force people to undergo treatment.

 

[0wing]

There's one little detail being missed. Bethesda never dropped Fallout 1, 2 (and Tactics but not the whole), they own them too now.
So it's still part of the canon. So still newer games have no moral right to contradict each other and the classics. So FEV is still highly classified project that goverment moved to west coast and not to CIT or Vault-Tec. How smart or stupid it is - another kind of question. If you start ripping things apart you will find how (not) well written Fallout for real is from the beginning. And it will only your fault because you'll descend to the level of people you disagree (i.e ignorant retards) because it'll be just lousy nitpicking like "how V15 vault door is blown off if it can survive direct A-Bomb hit?" There, saved you 20 minutes of pointless talk.

 

[Mr Fish]

1.
By that logic, I assume you hate everything released after Fallout, especially the Enclave, New Reno, Redding, Den, Vault City, Modoc, Marcus, etc. etc. because it wasn't mentioned in Fallout 1.


2.
Because it does research for the military? Like Cambridge Polymer Labs?


3.
Except a moronic explanation is no explanation at all. You seem to hate Fallout 4's writing, but when Fallout 2 does even worse, by providing a handwave that doesn't make any sense on any level, you give it a pass. Fanboy much?


4.
They're disposed of. Your point?

1.
Yes, because I refuse to acknowledge FEV being sent to Vault Tek and MIT when the place it originated from explicitly stated that it was sent to a specially constructed facility called Mariposa obviously means that I hate the Enclave, New Reno, Redding, Den, Vault City, Modoc, Marcus as well as whatever you imply about "etc etc". Are you fucking kidding me Tag? I dislike the use of FEV at Vault 87 and MIT because it wasn't mentioned in the actual records at West-Tek or Mariposa for that matter.

Marcus wasn't mentioned in Fallout 1 because (shockingly) there were (supposedly) thousands of super mutants running around. Vault City wasn't mentioned because it was far up to the north and the only city close to it was Shady Sands, a small farming town that mostly traded with the towns they knew about and had access to toward the south. Broken Hills wasn't even a town at that point and New Reno?

Anything below Reno was basically super mutants or wasteland, why would they even bother trying make a treck to Shady Sands when they're a den of debauchery that relies on tourists, not necessarily trade? Reno isn't mentioned because they hadn't made contact with them yet. IIRC you can't get directions to Lost Hills, Necropolis or Boneyard from Shady Sands either. Does that mean that they don't exist? Of course not, it just means that the northernmost town of the FO1 map doesn't deal with them or they don't know about them so there is no one who can mark them on your map or has anything to say about them. Just cause Reno ain't mentioned (because why the fuck would it when it is so far to the north) it doesn't mean that it suddenly "came out of nowhere" like FEV did in V87 and MIT. It's not the same thing.

2.
So what? It was kept on the down-low because they were worried about their research facilities being targeted by nukes (most of which we've seen in Fallout were, even MIT.) so it was sent to a 'new' facility and kept so much on the down-low that most of the people involved didn't even know what the fuck it was about. So why would I ever accept that "MIT being MIT" is a proper counter-argument? So what if it does research for the military, MIT is known about, it is obviously a target for potential nukes not to mention espionage and sabotage. No, of course it makes total sense to send the super secret super soldier serum to be worked on over at MIT.

3.
So because I call Fallout 4 out on its stupid shit it means that I automatically don't do it for 'any' of FO2's? Don't talk about me like you know me, Tag. And a moronic explanation is still 'a' explanation. I still don't see what is so moronic about it in the first place, you can create bombs from fertilizer (IIRC, I ain't googling that shit and ending up on an FBI watch list) but extracting some kind of chemical from a mutated cow to produce a narcotic is too far fetched? I think it's a bit silly but I don't think it is necessarily moronic and I'm fine with the explanation. Just like (and here comes a shocker, Tag, prepare yourself!) I'm fine with with the explanation for why Trogs mutated the way that they did in The Pitt (FO3). It's not perfect and I think they're silly but I don't find it moronic to the point that I'm foaming at the mouth in pure adulterated rage.

And hey, you know what? Fertilizer is the used component in crafting Jet in Fallout 4. So as stupid as you think it is; Bethesda (while retconning it to be pre-war for some reason) still consider the main ingredient to be cow-shit. So, yeah. If it was moronic before it is still moronic now. The only difference is that Bethesda broke the lore.

And you want me calling FO2 out on its stupid shit? It had fucking Psyker Molerats, not one, but two. I have to chalk it up to being a joke cause if I have to take that shit seriously then that means that we get telepathic mega-rats and it makes no sense. Talking Deathclaws? I'm fine with, they're a genetic experiment which could go in any number of ways and the way that they look so humanoid makes me think that they got some human DNA in them which would explain why the ones in Vault 13 could talk and why the ones in Tactics had at the very least some basic grasp on intelligence and communication, no matter how limited it was. But fucking molerats starting to psychically speak to you? Psykers in the first place feels like it needs to be stepped around carefully in Fallout so to give it to two rats is just unbelievably dumb and doesn't make any sense to me.

Yeah, I'm a real fanboy that is just completely blinded by my nostalgia goggles. Yup. Want me to bitch about Fallout 1? What the fuck does Necropolis do to sustain themselves? I get it that they got a water purifier but like... Is that it? I know they're shunned by the rest of the world by that's all the more reason that they need to be able to sustain themselves in various ways but from what I remember it is never explained. Necropolis is just a bunch of zombies mucking about, occasionally gathering the strength to chase a rat or go scavenging the area surrounding Necropolis. (I really don't like the weak excuse of "how do they survive" "they scavenge".)

My fanboyism just splurged all over the place.

4.
No point, I'm not trying to make an argument about this, man. I just couldn't find out what they did to the people they replaced and figured you'd know.

 

[Ragemage]

Where is it stated that Kellogg is immortal or immune to disease? The fact that the Institute extended his lifespan doesn't mean it's extended indefinitely - or that Kellogg's mind is equipped to cope with being that old.

Which makes this point kind of strange. Father could keep himself going through increasingly... Radical means, but he didn't want to sacrifice that. It's understandable. You can't force people to undergo treatment.

Please read the post I made after the one you quoted, I explained it there in detail. Since there's a lot of huge paragraphs on this page, I'll help you skim, it starts with "Fair enough".

 

[Tagaziel]

Please read the post I made after the one you quoted, I explained it there in detail. Since there's a lot of huge paragraphs on this page, I'll help you skim, it starts with "Fair enough".

I've read that and... It's actually not really that big of a source. The game doesn't state that Kellogg isn't a reptilian cleverly disguised as a human either and it's a fair leap from "longevity" to "disease immunity". The latter, as far as we know, is the domain of FEV and even then, it doesn't preclude degenerative neural disorders.

1.
Yes, because I refuse to acknowledge FEV being sent to Vault Tek and MIT

Here's the core of the problem. You refuse to acknowledge. It's too bad, because Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 are both canon parts of the series. Your refusal is utterly irrelevant.

when the place it originated from explicitly stated that it was sent to a specially constructed facility called Mariposa obviously means that I hate the Enclave, New Reno, Redding, Den, Vault City, Modoc, Marcus as well as whatever you imply about "etc etc". Are you fucking kidding me Tag? I dislike the use of FEV at Vault 87 and MIT because it wasn't mentioned in the actual records at West-Tek or Mariposa for that matter.

You hate it because it modified your precious setting. Your logic dictates that no alterations can be made to the story - which is kind of ridiculous, considering that the FEV research summary does not state that this was the only facility this was sent to. It merely states that the military wished to continue tests on human subjects and built Mariposa for that purpose. Given that Vault 87 entries post-date the research notes (as they mention Mariposa and West-Tek), it's entirely consistent.

Marcus wasn't mentioned in Fallout 1 because (shockingly) there were (supposedly) thousands of super mutants running around. Vault City wasn't mentioned because it was far up to the north and the only city close to it was Shady Sands, a small farming town that mostly traded with the towns they knew about and had access to toward the south. Broken Hills wasn't even a town at that point and New Reno?

Anything below Reno was basically super mutants or wasteland, why would they even bother trying make a treck to Shady Sands when they're a den of debauchery that relies on tourists, not necessarily trade? Reno isn't mentioned because they hadn't made contact with them yet. IIRC you can't get directions to Lost Hills, Necropolis or Boneyard from Shady Sands either. Does that mean that they don't exist? Of course not, it just means that the northernmost town of the FO1 map doesn't deal with them or they don't know about them so there is no one who can mark them on your map or has anything to say about them. Just cause Reno ain't mentioned (because why the fuck would it when it is so far to the north) it doesn't mean that it suddenly "came out of nowhere" like FEV did in V87 and MIT. It's not the same thing.

You do realize that they weren't mentioned because at that point they did not exist, at all? It's the same thing. All of that content was added ex nihilo.

2.
So what? It was kept on the down-low because they were worried about their research facilities being targeted by nukes (most of which we've seen in Fallout were, even MIT.) so it was sent to a 'new' facility and kept so much on the down-low that most of the people involved didn't even know what the fuck it was about. So why would I ever accept that "MIT being MIT" is a proper counter-argument? So what if it does research for the military, MIT is known about, it is obviously a target for potential nukes not to mention espionage and sabotage. No, of course it makes total sense to send the super secret super soldier serum to be worked on over at MIT.

It wasn't kept on the down-low because they were worried about it being targeted by nukes, it was kept on the down-low because it was a rather sinister, corrupt project that would make the populace riot even more than they already did. Even Maxson was wondering why the base wasn't nuked, meaning it didn't have any special countermeasures (and he wasn't some random grunt, mind you, but an officer).

Furthermore, you keep assuming that FEV is being shipped off marked as "super secret super soldier serum", which is just dumb.

3.
So because I call Fallout 4 out on its stupid shit it means that I automatically don't do it for 'any' of FO2's? Don't talk about me like you know me, Tag. And a moronic explanation is still 'a' explanation. I still don't see what is so moronic about it in the first place, you can create bombs from fertilizer (IIRC, I ain't googling that shit and ending up on an FBI watch list) but extracting some kind of chemical from a mutated cow to produce a narcotic is too far fetched?

Yes, because they're not extracting chemicals from mutated cows. They're collecting bullshit fumes. Which raises the question why hasn't anyone figured out, in the 160 years or so since the war, that shit gets you high, despite the fact that the entire economy of New California relies on the brahmin and involves handling judicious amounts of shit?

I think it's a bit silly but I don't think it is necessarily moronic and I'm fine with the explanation. Just like (and here comes a shocker, Tag, prepare yourself!) I'm fine with with the explanation for why Trogs mutated the way that they did in The Pitt (FO3). It's not perfect and I think they're silly but I don't find it moronic to the point that I'm foaming at the mouth in pure adulterated rage.

Exposure to radiation and chemical weapons is perfectly in line with the Science! of the setting. Jenkem? Not so much.

And hey, you know what? Fertilizer is the used component in crafting Jet in Fallout 4. So as stupid as you think it is; Bethesda (while retconning it to be pre-war for some reason) still consider the main ingredient to be cow-shit. So, yeah. If it was moronic before it is still moronic now.

The only difference is that Bethesda broke the lore.

They didn't. What's the issue? Can't stomach the thought of Myron being a fucking liar?

And you want me calling FO2 out on its stupid shit? It had fucking Psyker Molerats, not one, but two. I have to chalk it up to being a joke cause if I have to take that shit seriously then that means that we get telepathic mega-rats and it makes no sense.

So why don't you do the same for Billy?

Talking Deathclaws? I'm fine with, they're a genetic experiment which could go in any number of ways and the way that they look so humanoid makes me think that they got some human DNA in them which would explain why the ones in Vault 13 could talk and why the ones in Tactics had at the very least some basic grasp on intelligence and communication, no matter how limited it was. But fucking molerats starting to psychically speak to you? Psykers in the first place feels like it needs to be stepped around carefully in Fallout so to give it to two rats is just unbelievably dumb and doesn't make any sense to me.

It wasn't limited. The intelligent deathclaws had an intellect and morality on par with humans, combined with a superior physique. They also don't have human DNA, it's the modified FEV - and their speech is similar to how parrots emulate human voices.

The ones in Tactics, apart from not existing in Bethesda's continuity, were also a completely different species. Mammals, for starters.

Yeah, I'm a real fanboy that is just completely blinded by my nostalgia goggles. Yup. Want me to bitch about Fallout 1? What the fuck does Necropolis do to sustain themselves? I get it that they got a water purifier but like... Is that it? I know they're shunned by the rest of the world by that's all the more reason that they need to be able to sustain themselves in various ways but from what I remember it is never explained. Necropolis is just a bunch of zombies mucking about, occasionally gathering the strength to chase a rat or go scavenging the area surrounding Necropolis. (I really don't like the weak excuse of "how do they survive" "they scavenge".)

They scavenge. It's a huge, dead city, where salvagers don't roam, meaning the ghouls have a wealth of stuff to gather and exchange for Hub's water and other services.

4.
No point, I'm not trying to make an argument about this, man. I just couldn't find out what they did to the people they replaced and figured you'd know.

That's the point, man. You're not intended to read about it on a terminal and shrug, but to connect the dots yourself. That the person they capture is interrogated (probably with some sort of brain scan), then disposed of.

 

[Ragemage]

I've read that and... It's actually not really that big of a source. The game doesn't state that Kellogg isn't a reptilian cleverly disguised as a human either and it's a fair leap from "longevity" to "disease immunity". The latter, as far as we know, is the domain of FEV and even then, it doesn't preclude degenerative neural disorders.

Well that's the problem. They don't ever explain it. It just doesn't make sense that they would go from "Well, we may not be able to cure cancer, but these new robotic replacements should extend your life sir, and hopefully by the time the implants no longer stop cancer, we should have a fix for it" to "Eh, fuck it. Sacrifice hundreds of innocent wastelanders in this green goop stuff for TEN YEARS without a single positive result because it MIGHT be able to cure me of cancer". The only way for this to make sense is that they were intentionally trying to paint Father as an evil megalomaniac who only cares about himself while believing it's the best for the Institute. But the writing with Father, and the dialogue with Father, plus the fact he's our son, indicates the fact that we're supposed to love Father and care about him and not question him at all. But it doesn't work like that because this is the same person who quite literally turned more than a thousand people into big green giants just to see if it MIGHT be able to cure his cancer without modifying his body. Not even the Master managed to make any sort of FEV that didn't modify the body at all.

So that's the big problem. It doesn't come off as Bethesda being clever and saying "Ah, but look, your son was actually extremely evil and narcissistic all along!" thus making blowing up the Institute more of a grey area than a red "yes destroy all evil" area. It comes off as "Maybe your son was a terrible terrible person but who gives a shit, we wrote him specifically to pull at your heartstrings without any context so you should love and care for him regardless of anything he did".

If we were actually able to question Shaun on his insanity and WHY he would risk the lives of thousands just to cure himself and see his explanation, then it might make more sense. But because of poor dialogue, we aren't able to ask Shaun a single thing about it, even if we've been in the FEV labs, read the terminals, and found Virgil's holotape about it. So really it just makes Shaun come off as an extremely evil psychopath that should probably be shot on sight, rather than a son that you can grow to love and care for. Like, if Shaun were actually insane and only cared about himself because of all the years he's spent kidnapped by cold, uncaring scientists, then it might make sense, but no. He seems like an almost reasonable person when you talk to him, nothing wrong with him at all, and it just doesn't add up. Especially when he starts blithering on about how he wants to "save the Commonwealth" when he's one of the main reasons it's such a shithole in the first place thanks to his FEV experimentation!

 

[0wing]

It's too bad, because Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 are both canon parts of the series.

So do Fallout 1 and 2. If Bethesda suddenly writes something stupid and contradicting to let's say, Morrowind in TES: VI - Will you bear with it too just because Bethesda owns Elder Scrolls? Will fans of the ES?

So why don't you do the same for Billy?

Because Bethesda never learns from mistakes of predecessors. Even worse, tying everything to pre-war makes everything worse. Yes, even Billy. Yes.
Graveyard near New Reno is less stupid than locked fridge for 210 years that wasn't opened for quite a long time.

Tagz, one question. Elder Scrolls is a game with huge and carefully written lore. Why Fallout cannot have the same treatment? Why juggle with attributes of the classic so mindlessly?

Even Maxson was wondering why the base wasn't nuked, meaning it didn't have any special countermeasures (and he wasn't some random grunt, mind you, but an officer).

Maxson is a fucking captain, he didn't get the whole picture even though scientists already shown all the cards and he's just denied the facts. Asshat aside, Chinese nuked the West-Tek, they fine with it. If they knew about Mariposa, they'd nuke it too. Just sayin'.

 

[Ragemage]

So do Fallout 1 and 2. If Bethesda suddenly writes something stupid and contradicting to let's say, Morrowind in TES: VI - Will you bear with it too just because Bethesda owns Elder Scrolls? Will fans of the ES?

Actually they already did that with Morrowind. Kinda. It isn't contradicting but boy is it stupid. Basically all your actions in Morrowind literally meant nothing, you may as well have not even played the game. The reason for this being that, 50 years or so after your character saved Morrowind, the entirety of Vvardenfell gets destroyed due to Red Mountain erupting, killing everyone in Vvardenfell, and destroying much of mainland Morrowind.

And why is this? Well essentially once Vivec "disappeared" due to the Nerevarine reappearing, they had to build something to hold the Ministry of Truth up because apparently Vivec was the only thing keeping that giant hunk of rock afloat. So they build a soul-powered machine to keep it working. Well one day they're about to sacrifice this dunmer woman to the machine because it needs a recharge, but her boyfriend suddenly shows up and BREAKS THE MACHINE TO SAVE HER. This causes the meteor to fall, and it destroys Vivec completely, leaving nothing. This huge meteor crushing the entire capital causes a massive chain reaction that causes Red Mountain to erupt, destroying everything.

So yes, essentially, every single thing you did in Vvardenfell was entirely pointless because the entirety of the area you explored in Morrowind gets "nuked' because of some retard who thought "twue wuf" was more important than the lives of thousands of people.

The worst part is, we don't even get to see this happen or get any sort of closure. No, this all happens in some real life book that was written after Morrowind and made canon by Bethesda.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Super muntants shouldn't have been in the game to begin with. The only reason they are is because Bethesda is to lazy to make new creatures

I would not say that. Of course I don't know it for sure, so this is just speculation. But I think they simply have this idea, that Fallout is Super Mutants, Ghouls and Radiation in a 50s setting with some Sci-Fi thrown in. Their artists are really great, when it comes to capturing the general feel and visuals of Fallout. But their implementation in the game, varies. As seen with the Super Mutants. A lot of what you see in Fallout 4, was supposed to die out at some point. The Super Mutants, the Brotherhood, even Ghouls. A lot of it started to dissapear or at least dwindle a lot in numbers. But since those parts, are iconic to the Fallout setting, I guess every Fallout game needs undead Ghouls now acting as your generic zombies and Super Mutants as orcs, so you have something more to shoot at than just raiders. And of course, the Brotherhood. Always remember the Brotherhood ...
Though, I am not sure, if not even Death Claws where more a regional thing, or even supposed to die out. But I could be wrong here.
Anyway, I don't think that Beth was lazy.

Because they're one of the foremost research institutes in the United States of the time, also working on military technologies?

Ah, just like the real MIT, those crazy scientists ! Stockpiling nuclear weapons, biological agents and all sorts of really dangerous technology ... wait, no!

 

[0wing]

But I think they simply have this idea, that Fallout is Super Mutants

(Fanmade but still) Fallout: Nevada doesn't have them at all, and still, a pretty decent Fallout game on itself, not only as F2 TC. And ghouls were presented in radically different way. Those attributes does not make Fallout, it's the peoples and stories in a post apocalyptic world. About societies being rebuilded and how in context of each people, resurrection of the world. And the writing playing a huge part here, not cloned RUST mechanic with Preston & Co. That's one of the reason F4 getting so much hate, not much story behind settlements.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I am not saying a Fallout game can't have ghouls or super mutants. I am just tired of them beeing there, just to have something as target practise. New Vegas did a much better job here, with giving some of the Super Mutants and Ghouls a purpose, a narrative. Even if only for side quests. And the best part of it, you encounter it, as a part from a different quest - the kings and the cyberdog. THis makes it all feel natural. Where as in Fallout 3 and F4 ... they are more or less just there. Hostile. Eating umans. Or what ever shit they do in their spare time. Seriously. What would have been really impressive, if the Super Mutants created a large and cool community and settlement somewhere in F4, for the player to explore - or destroy, if he whished so. Imagine that. Everyone else doing like garbage, fighting each other, but ghouls and super mutants create their own little heaven. Make them more than just brutes, that run up to you with a nuke ...

It also lead to the suicides (forced or willing) of some of the scientific staff in West Tek. The scientists themselves were disgusted by their research and ethics, showing intense security not only among it's guardians and military but parts of the research body itself.

Think about, this project is so secret that several scientists and all the guards have no idea what they're dealing with, and yet according to Fallout 3 and 4 it was given to MIT and Vault Tek.

Mabybe the US government was going to treat FEV like the Soviets their Kalashnikov? By the way, wanna have some Kalashnikov? Good, weapon, good, bljad!