Tea Parties and Obamacare

[TheGM]

call me heartless, but the reality is something entirely different. in some circumstances, whats good for the majority is worth a little minority suffering. i would rather an illegal immigrant die from not getting public assistance or emergency health care than a legal citizen or resident suffer.

It isn't an either/or situation, and denying people emergency healthcare because they aren't supposed to be in a country is significantly worse than the fictional 'death panels'.

Fuck'em.

Let then get in line like my ancestors did.

Now for the topic at hand.

"I'm FUCKING PISSED AND I DON'T WHY OR AT WHAT BUT GOD DAMMIT I'M PISSED!"

Thats what all that sounds like to me.

 

[TheWesDude]

ok, you guys are confused...

you guys need to go back to my post with all those numbers and read #3 again.

i said NON-EMERGENCY care should be denied.

and i dont care if its emergency or not, if you are an illegal alien, you get the boot to the door via INS.

and if they keep comming back, make mexico jail them. or deport em to cuba. or guantanamo bay or something. not a plush american jail thats for sure.

there should be ZERO protection for illegal aliens other than for crimes comitted against them like murder, assault, and the such. but even then, after the court case is done, boot em.

 

[Crni Vuk]

semi-OT:

In Germany we still somewhat believe in the Hippocratic Oath

Er...

Aus dem Abschlussbericht der Sonderkommission "Organisierte Wirtschaftskriminalität im deutschen Gesundheitswesen" des Bundeskriminalamtes:

"Unser Gesundheitswesen ist systematisch korrupt und in den Händen der organisierten Kriminalität." ...
"Jeder Arzt, der sich diesem Betrugssystem widersetzt, wird von mafiösen Strukturen der kassenärztlichen Vereinigungen in seiner Existenz ruiniert." ...

yes and? Since when was the last time a Doctor or Hospital refused to help some Person in emergency situations only cause he was illegal in Germany or not registered?

 

[Cheomesh]

Heard on the news that our wonder boy might not be going through with this at all. Isn't that sort of why we wanted him elected, other than to end the (still going) war?

M.

 

[SimpleMinded]

The problem is, he can't force it on us and even though we elected him for that, there's too much resistance to get it by.

 

[Sander]

Fuck'em.

Let then get in line like my ancestors did.

So if you see someone dying in the street and you're the only one who can help, you'll just walk by because he could be illegal? Note that in emergency situations there often isn't time (or means) to check if someone is illegal.

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 21:15 Post subject:
ok, you guys are confused...

you guys need to go back to my post with all those numbers and read #3 again.

i said NON-EMERGENCY care should be denied.

would rather an illegal immigrant die from not getting public assistance or emergency health care than a legal citizen or resident suffer.

Que?

I have no problems with deporting illegal aliens.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

and i dont care if its emergency or not, if you are an illegal alien, you get the boot to the door via INS.

Read my post, booting aliens is a massive waste of time and money, if you want to solve the immigration problem then you have to get rid of their reason for illegally immigrating, the jobs. If you get rid of employers (including punishing people who hire them as personal maids) then you will get rid of the employees (illegal immigrants).

and if they keep comming back, make mexico jail them. or deport em to cuba. or guantanamo bay or something. not a plush american jail thats for sure.

"Make Mexico jail them"? That's one of the stupidest suggestions I've heard, Mexico obviously doesn't care and, given that they are on the verge of civil war, have more important things to worry about. It isn't their problem and it isn't going to happen. As for deporting them, that doesn't work either (it's our current policy and there are tons of return illegal aliens). By throwing them in Gitmo I assume you mean give them the same illegal treatment that we give the other illegal prisoners there. Not only is that legally a bad idea (it's bad enough as is) but it costs a shit load of money, doesn't solve the problem (there will be illegals to replace them), we don't have the space (would cost more money to expand the prison and even then there wouldn't be enough space), and it could create international relations problems (not just with Mexico but with much of the UN).

Isn't that sort of why we wanted him elected, other than to end the (still going) war?

Well given that the other viable candidate was a senile old man with a giant growth on his face, chronic medical conditions, and possibly the stupidest VP candidate in US history...

The problem is, he can't force it on us and even though we elected him for that, there's too much resistance to get it by.

No, not really. He could force it through (60 dems in the Senate and majority in the House) but the man has no balls and wants to please everyone. Basically the entire republican party (with the possible exception of the East Coast republicans) will vote against it and most of the democrats (with the possible exception of the conservative democrats) will vote for it. If the Republicans want to filibuster it then let them, we didn't let that stop Civil Rights and we shouldn't let it stop healthcare.

would rather an illegal immigrant die from not getting public assistance or emergency health care than a legal citizen or resident suffer.

False dichotomy.

 

[welsh]

The idea that these rallies are getting nutty and that some of the folks going to these rallies are packing heat is starting to make me nervous. The idea that some politician might get shot because of some crackpot with a gun... that's scary.

 

[Crni Vuk]

No, not really. He could force it through (60 dems in the Senate and majority in the House) but the man has no balls and wants to please everyone. Basically the entire republican party (with the possible exception of the East Coast republicans) will vote against it and most of the democrats (with the possible exception of the conservative democrats) will vote for it. If the Republicans want to filibuster it then let them, we didn't let that stop Civil Rights and we shouldn't let it stop healthcare..

Brother None mentioned that misgiving regarding Obama once. And I have to agree with his conclusion that in that case Obama could be worst thing to happen to the US politic after Bush.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

The idea that these rallies are getting nutty and that some of the folks going to these rallies are packing heat is starting to make me nervous. The idea that some politician might get shot because of some crackpot with a gun... that's scary.

Yes well the NRA crowd is an interesting one, they don't really care about any freedom other than the right to bear arms, as proved by their reaction to the Patriot Act and Gitmo. What surprised me was that the Secret Service didn't arrest that guy. Mob rule is a dangerous thing, especially when you have a group encouraging and directing the mob to believe the most crazy ideas.

Brother None mentioned that misgiving regarding Obama once. And I have to agree with his conclusion that in that case Obama could be worst thing to happen to the US politic after Bush.

I disagree, it wouldn't be good but it's hardly a McCain. McCain started down the Project for a New American Century road after losing in 2000 and, I would guess, pressure from the White House and Republican party which broke him. I think Obama is a stable and rational man and I doubt he'll do much worse than compromise on everything. McCain on the other hand could have further estranged the US from the rest of the world by continuing Bush's foreign policy. There was also the very real possibility that his health would fail putting Palin (who would have abused her power and position with her husband as they had in the past) in charge, a person who could do worse than Bush. It's all relative.

 

[Cheomesh]

I wasted my vote on Ron Paul.

I may or may not have been under the influence of some serious shit at the time, though (Jet, maybe?).

I too think he's trying to please everyone. I don't hold this against him per se, as he's the first mixed-race (not black, fuck off with that) man in that office, and the first Hawaiian (or whatever) president. The grand majority of the US put their faith in him, and the minority has a lot to put him down for (philosophically that is).

I can see why he's apprehensive. One way is a minefield, the other way is a possible precipice of doom. Which would you take? I am not sure, myself.

M.

 

[TheWesDude]

ok, the US cannot fix all of mexicos problems.

that would be the best way to stop illegal immigrants from mexico to the us, but simply we cant afford it.

untill we/they do fix all their problems, we need an interim solution to stop them. or at least make it so we dont spend millions(billions?) a year for benifits for illegal aliens.

 

[Cheomesh]

Well, we did spend billions invading a country for no real reason.

Twice.

M.

 

[Public]

and i dont care if its emergency or not, if you are an illegal alien, you get the boot to the door via INS.

Read my post, booting aliens is a massive waste of time and money, if you want to solve the immigration problem then you have to get rid of their reason for illegally immigrating, the jobs. If you get rid of employers (including punishing people who hire them as personal maids) then you will get rid of the employees (illegal immigrants).

All the Poles, back!

 

[DammitBoy]

...booting aliens is a massive waste of time and money, if you want to solve the immigration problem then you have to get rid of their reason for illegally immigrating, the jobs.

Obama is doing really great at getting rid of the jobs...

 

[UncannyGarlic]

ok, the US cannot fix all of mexicos problems.

that would be the best way to stop illegal immigrants from mexico to the us, but simply we cant afford it.

Well it would be helpful but as long as there are higher paying jobs for illegal immigrants they are going to come. Also we could help Mexico for less than we're pissing away in the Middle East and it would be significantly more beneficial for us.

untill we/they do fix all their problems, we need an interim solution to stop them. or at least make it so we dont spend millions(billions?) a year for benifits for illegal aliens.

You get these numbers from...? And wouldn't it be better to solve the problem so that you spend "millions (billions?)" so that "we don't spend millions (billions?) a year for benefits for illegal aliens"? Short term thinking is a fucking disease.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I would go on make a huge post ... but then I realised that Garlic said already anything valid in his posts. So I can only agree.

 

[Julius]

Garlic, connect the dots between your mentioning of the threat of civil war in Mexico and the issue of mass illegal immigration.


On topic, I'm honestly appalled at the level of discourse from conservatives in the media on this issue. There is no dialogue, only impassioned rants filled with vague buzz words and lacking any specific relation to the bill. The specifics that are mentioned are lies or bullshit. Maybe there is a general feeling that the issues with the bill are not emotionally charged enough to grab the attention of the average voter, so they concoct up 'death panels' and nazi-commies.

 

[JayGrey]

"Grey, I did not know each province had their own. That sounds like a far better idea than a federal blanked act."

Well, there is a federal-level ministry of health that essentially takes federal tax revenues and dishes them out the the provincial plans. Also provides some form of regulation I'm not at all clear on (like much of the federal sector, to the provincial sector, which inturn trickles down to the manicipul sector . . . ).

Now, to Wes: No, not heartless. I just find it disconcerting the lack of value you seem to place in indivual human life, just because they come (illegally) from another nation. Still, I highly doubt that the alien population of the US (or of even California) is so great that it is crippling any system.

In Canada, well Ontario, (at least from what little I know) our anti-alien task force consists of a joint venture between the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Ontario Provincial Police. This lil' group consists of about 20 or so personel whose job it is to track down and extradite [if this is the correct word) those who have severe criminal records, (murder, rape, robbery) and only those. They even call ahead first, if you can believe it. Yet, we don't have this outcry (that I've heard) of these bad, evil, illegal <s>Americans</s> <s>Mexicans</s> aliens. However, we have higher taxes -- maybe that's why our system is not crippled by it. 15% of all purchases, tax. An average of 22% income, provincial tax .etc.

Still, please, just show me one statistic that quantifies the illegal immigrant situation. One that isn't an estimation. If they're illegal, we shouldn't be able to tell. Untill they cannot present a visa/greencard of some form. Then? I don't know how things proceed. It would be the choice of the physician/nurse/accounts recievable/legal department on whether they can legally inform law enforcement.

Now, I've heard estimates that there are about 2 million aliens in the US. How many of those have false identities and actually pay tax, we'll never know . . . But, 2 million of 365 milllion is about 0.005%; In Canada, I heard estimates that it is 50 000 of 30 million.

How much money could they really cost, all of them? And how many pay cash for services rendered?

This bill forces everyone in the US to have some from of medical insurance, no? Private, or public. (This is just what I've heard, I never looked into it.) If this is the case, then wtf are we talking about?

"threat of civil war in Mexico and the issue of mass illegal immigration. "

Try to hold them back, America. Just try. Ugh, the poor Canadian refugees claim courts . . .

 

[Julius]

But, 2 million of 365 milllion is about 0.005%;

Not being an ass here, but move the 5 two places to the left.
2 million out of 365 million is a little over half a percent.

"threat of civil war in Mexico and the issue of mass illegal immigration. "

Try to hold them back, America. Just try. Ugh, the poor Canadian refugees claim courts . . .

What?