Tea Parties and Obamacare

[JayGrey]

Well, math was never my thing . . . Nor Windows Calc.
2/365 == 0.005, hence the above.

Civil war and refugee claims tend to come hand in hand. People come. People stay under refugee claim. People forced to deport after claim dismissed. People sue for status. Or something along those lines.

Oh, and chain-link fence does not do so well up against millions of pressing bodies, even with border guards. Though, could always militarize, I suppose . . . Err.

 

[Julius]

Well, math was never my thing . . . Nor Windows Calc.
2/365 == 0.005, hence the above.

Civil war and refugee claims tend to come hand in hand. People come. People stay under refugee claim. People forced to deport after claim dismissed. People sue for status. Or something along those lines.

Oh, and chain-link fence does not do so well up against millions of pressing bodies, even with border guards. Though, could always militarize, I suppose . . . Err.

Aha. Unfortunately this is only one of two major issues with this. The other is the fact that the illegal immigrants are going to, and already to an extent are, import the Mexican 'civil war' with them.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Garlic, connect the dots between your mentioning of the threat of civil war in Mexico and the issue of mass illegal immigration.

I haven't looked at the numbers so I can't say whether or not it's a factor but the "illegal immigration problem" predates the threat of Civil War.

This bill forces everyone in the US to have some from of medical insurance, no? Private, or public. (This is just what I've heard, I never looked into it.) If this is the case, then wtf are we talking about?

I had overlooked that but that's a good point. After this bill passes (rather after it's implemented) then every (in theory, in practice just most) American and legal immigrant would have insurance so the question becomes, what about illegal immigrants? Some of them will get insurance but I wonder how those without will be treated...

Oh, and chain-link fence does not do so well up against millions of pressing bodies, even with border guards. Though, could always militarize, I suppose . . . Err.

There really isn't an economically viable method of managing the border, a fence is a waste of time and money because they can be cut and climbed. A concrete wall would work better but they aren't perfect and that would be ridiculously expensive. A concrete lined canal would be the most effective but there are serious human rights and sanitation issues with making a giant death troth, plus it's even more expensive. Patrolling them with people is simply ineffective and we really need to stop the crazies with guns from playing vigilantes.

The other is the fact that the illegal immigrants are going to, and already to an extent are, import the Mexican 'civil war' with them.

Source?

 

[Julius]

I read a story in the Economist a while back about a major bust by the FBI with quite a few arrests across the US of Mexican cartel people. I can't find it online so I'll link a few other articles that deal with it.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/03/27/gibler.qanda/index.html

http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/po...kidnappings-in-the-world-next-to-mexico-city/


You'll see mentioned for example that Phoenix, Arizona now has more kidnappings than Bogota, Colombia.


Here is a story on how the Cartels use the liberal American gun laws to purchase weapons for use in Mexico.

http://www.economist.com/world/americas/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13415531


While it isn't exactly chaos, there are signs that the war could be spilling over. Seeing how things are going in Mexico at the moment, it would be disastrous not to be very aware of developments on the U.S. side.

"IS MEXICO’S drug war moving north? In Maricopa County, which encompasses Phoenix, officials are alarmed by a spike in kidnappings for ransom and “other Latin American-style violence”. Rick Perry, the governor of Texas, wants the federal government to deploy 1,000 National Guard troops and six helicopters in his state. A spokeswoman for the governor said that the request, which the administration is considering, is to prevent the situation worsening."
from: http://www.economist.com/world/americas/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13415539

 

[Cheomesh]

Well, answer there is probably to criminalize guns, so that they can stop buying weapons for their little wars. Or so they tell me, at least.

Dunno about the drug war -- we need to decriminalize, of course, but they'll still have supply produced by severely cheap labor, and plenty of customers, maybe even some new ones. We need to get solving that.

M.

 

[TheWesDude]

You get these numbers from...? And wouldn't it be better to solve the problem so that you spend "millions (billions?)" so that "we don't spend millions (billions?) a year for benefits for illegal aliens"? Short term thinking is a fucking disease.

in 2004 it was estimated that california spends at least 10.5 billion a year strictly due to illegal immigrants, 7.5 billion in education, 1.5 billion in health costs, and 1.5 billion in other public services.

california gets an estimated 1.1 million illegal immigrants a year.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm


here is another article with a softer view

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/02/local/me-cap2


short-term thinking would be great if states like texas and california had years to work on solutions. unfortunately, california does not have a lot of time.

Now, I've heard estimates that there are about 2 million aliens in the US. How many of those have false identities and actually pay tax, we'll never know

california by itself has over 2 million illegal aliens. not nationwide.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

<snip>

While the cartels are heavily involved (running more and more of the country through force and fear), saying that the civil war (which has yet to happen and without our support, isn't likely to) is spilling over isn't quite right. The cartels have always had a presence in the US and as they expand it's obvious that their activities would increase wherever they are present.

Dunno about the drug war -- we need to decriminalize, of course, but they'll still have supply produced by severely cheap labor, and plenty of customers, maybe even some new ones. We need to get solving that.

The thing about decriminalization is that the people it hurts the most is organized crime because they no longer have the market cornered. Add to it that it's now a regulated good and thus if they do bring it in legally then they can be cracked down on for their practices which means anything from fines to arrests to blacklisting them. Look at how much booze was imported by organized crime during prohibition and after it, the business was no longer profitable so they pulled out. Of course they'll seek other forms of revenue but worrying about legalizing drugs financially helping organized crime is bogus.

<snip>

Note that the source for the numbers in the first one is the Federation for American Immigration Reform, hardly a reliable source for any information regarding their interests.

If you figure that the children of illegal immigrants attending K-12 schools approximates the proportion of illegal immigrants in the population, the bill currently comes to roughly $4 billion. Most is state money; some local property taxes.

As he noted before, children of illegal immigrants born in the US are US citizens and thus will pay into the system after graduating (assuming they get a job that doesn't pay under the table, which is likely).

Neither note the major impact on taxes that illegal immigrants have which is that neither they nor their employer pay any taxes on their income. This cuts costs considerably for employers and is the single most crippling part. Also note that all of those numbers are costs but without a comparison to how much they pay into the system, the numbers are over inflated.

 

[TheGM]

Fuck'em.

Let then get in line like my ancestors did.

So if you see someone dying in the street and you're the only one who can help, you'll just walk by because he could be illegal? Note that in emergency situations there often isn't time (or means) to check if someone is illegal.

Well there wouldn't be much I could do since I'm not a Doctor. They would get the same "Damn Dude, You got fucked up" that I have giving everybody else that I've seen Shot/Crashed etc.

 

[Ashmo]

Actually, in Germany we're going in the opposite direction: enforcing economic criteria in the public health system.

Needless to say, health care is getting worse.

 

[TheWesDude]

Neither note the major impact on taxes that illegal immigrants have which is that neither they nor their employer pay any taxes on their income. This cuts costs considerably for employers and is the single most crippling part. Also note that all of those numbers are costs but without a comparison to how much they pay into the system, the numbers are over inflated.

the impact is enough to be a major cause of california going bankrupt.

the impact is enough to cause public hospitals to close, or go private so they dont have to treat illegal aliens.

the impact is enough for public hospitals to stop offering emergency services outside "normal business hours".



and i think its wrong that south americans can illegally come to the US, have their baby, and then the babies are citizens. of course it would require a constitional amendment to correct, but i dont like it at all. at least all they do is give a permanent residential visa to the mother, and refuse the father ( if present ) and make him go through proper channels. but even then, once that happens, the mother applies for welfare and housing assistance and other public services in the name of the child and gets it.

i would love a constitutional amendment clarifying/fixing it. did you know, that a child of american citizens born on foreign soil cannot be president because they are considered "naturalized citizen" and not a "natural citizen" as a natural citizen is defined as someone born on US soil? and you must be a natural citizen to become president.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Actually, in Germany we're going in the opposite direction: enforcing economic criteria in the public health system.

Needless to say, health care is getting worse.

Yes, I call it the "Geiz is geil" mentality which means no one gets the feeling anymore to be social when it comes to the general pool and wants to pay for the society and "share" which leads to a politic that slowly strips down the social elements of the German society and state. A pretty bad move in my eyes and it shows that its not something that will work in the long run in Germany. The only hope is that with time when people realise that its a run against a wall (in fact everyone can sometimes get in a situation where he need help I know enough people ) and will return to the social aspects that made our society somewhat stable.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

My 4 Part Plan:
1. Mandatory conscription for all immigrants. An optional $15,000 exemption fee would absolve any obligation (if you have a marketable skill we could finance that fee at a subvented rate - what's the going CC rate 18%?.)
2. Send them to fight the war. If you want to become a true American, prove it to us by killing brown people. It worked with cons in The Dirty Dozen. Built in vetting process too! No sick, infirm would survive - aleviating pressure on the medical system!
3. Harvest the organs/blood of any fatalities for use in our medical system. Waste-not-want-not.
4. Use the proceeds to pay off our national debt.

Pragmatism motherfuckers.

 

[TheGM]

1. Mandatory conscription for all immigrants.

We did it to the Irish.

 

[Cheomesh]

Using conscripts isn't pragmatic so much as dogmatic, conscript armies tend to be pretty shitty. Especially when they fight for another country, a la Rome (they still teach History right?)

The rest, however, I'm cool with. Organ harvesting and all would help, though it needs to be regulated so we're not organ farming them. That would cause a pretty nasty fiasco.

M.

 

[Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude]

The rest, however, I'm cool with. Organ harvesting and all would help, though it needs to be regulated so we're not organ farming them. That would cause a pretty nasty fiasco.

M.

Pff. China does it (even going so far as to harvest the organs of living detainees), and they're doing quite good for themselves. Don't hear anything about it on the news either.

 

[Julius]

Using conscripts isn't pragmatic so much as dogmatic, conscript armies tend to be pretty shitty. Especially when they fight for another country, a la Rome (they still teach History right?)

Or pretty much every farmer army until the French revolution. Conscription only works if it's laden with nationalist sentiment.
So figure out some way of enflaring the passions of the latinos for some cause, and you got yourself an army. Maybe something with native indians stealing their property. Or black people.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I think youre watching to much Crank 2 or so ...

 

[Cheomesh]

The thing about decriminalization is that the people it hurts the most is organized crime because they no longer have the market cornered. Add to it that it's now a regulated good and thus if they do bring it in legally then they can be cracked down on for their practices which means anything from fines to arrests to blacklisting them. Look at how much booze was imported by organized crime during prohibition and after it, the business was no longer profitable so they pulled out. Of course they'll seek other forms of revenue but worrying about legalizing drugs financially helping organized crime is bogus.

Oh so true. Don't worry, I'm not one of those ignorant neo-cons, I just had some reservations about opening the gates quickly on something with so much money behind it.

I mean, I'm not trying to say how someone should run their life. I do wonder if gangs will knock over those charming little mom and pop smokeables that'll start taking over the market? Hm, Wal-mart sold weed...wonder how cheap we could get that?

Pff. China does it (even going so far as to harvest the organs of living detainees), and they're doing quite good for themselves. Don't hear anything about it on the news either.

This is true. So does Brazil if I'm not mistaken, though I did hear about that on the news some years back -- some kid broke his ankle playing foot ball and two days later went home in a plastic trash bag. We do have a lot of uppity human rights people with their noses everywhere around here, though.

Conscription only works if it's laden with nationalist sentiment.

This is what I meant, sorry. You said it much more eloquently than I did, probably because you're a Dane

Basically, it's quote rare for Conscript armies of non-nationals to work in offensive wars. Unless you can convince them it's a defensive war, or if your country has been f*cked by everyone else, a la the German conscript armies of WW1 and WW2.

M.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

the impact is enough to be a major cause of california going bankrupt.

How big is the California state budget? What percentage of that goes to illegal immigrants (calling their citizen kids such is incorrect)? How much do they pay into the system? About how much more would they and their pay into the system if their jobs all paid taxes?

Again, you're making a lot of assumptions with less than the full facts. I'm not saying that it doesn't have an impact but if you're going to make the argument, make it with all of the right numbers.

1. <snip>
2. <snip>

I wouldn't say make it mandatory but make it an option for gaining citizenship.

3. <snip>

Organ donation needs to be changed to being an opt out system instead of an opt it, it would massively increase the number of organs in the system.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Using conscripts isn't pragmatic so much as dogmatic, conscript armies tend to be pretty shitty. Especially when they fight for another country, a la Rome (they still teach History right?)

No less than civics evidently, since we've already had this arrangement with the Philippines for the last 60 years. Three years service in the US Navy earns Filipinos full US citizenship.