CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of the casualties in the Mojave campaign were from fighting the BOS not Legion.
The Brotherhood of Steel decision - thumbs up or thumbs down?
- Thread starter CT Phipps
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Carbon Dated and Proud
Einhanderc7
Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection
I think that's rather doubtful, the BOS did their utmost to remain hidden and away from the conflict between the NCR and Legion. However if this was a situation where BOS had to engage the Legion. I could see them causing a great deal of damage before finally falling. If I remember correctly the Legion was a new development for the BOS as well due to their sequestering, while they viewed them as nothing more than tribal chaff they were only aware of their power in a minor sense.
I like to picture it kind of like the Fallout 1 ending slide where the overseer is shooting the miniguns while the super mutants swarm him, just replace the characters and the gear and it's pretty much the same thing.
I like to picture it kind of like the Fallout 1 ending slide where the overseer is shooting the miniguns while the super mutants swarm him, just replace the characters and the gear and it's pretty much the same thing.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
The Brotherhood of Steel in New Vegas have already had a massive prolonged siege and doom battle against the New Republic military where they were forced to continually fight the New California Republic over and over again until they're a shadow of their former self as a chapter. Father Elijah forced them to fight NCR directly despite how stupid it was given they were fully mobilized for war.
And yet the BOS probably did horrific damage.
Einhanderc7
Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection
That information is not in contention, as it is correct. However I'm talking about the current state of affairs of the BOS in New Vegas during the game. When the BOS talks about the Helios One conflict they plainly state that they eliminated a great many threats, but the problem was that they simply ran out of ammo, supplies, and man power. The BOS unfortunately cannot support a war of attrition against an opponent that has seemingly endless numbers.
Against the Legion the BOS would likely fair the same, as their limited military force would be far too overworked and strained to contend with the sheer numbers the Legion can throw into any given battle.
Consider how the Soviet forces in WW2 managed to push back the German military. They did so with sheer quantity vs. quality, While the German forces were hardened veterans they simply could not support a protacted engagement as resources dwindled.
Cobra Commander
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Problem of this discussion is that it ends up returning to the old dilemma: PA from lore vs PA ingame.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
I remember having an argument on the Bethesda forums with a fan who insisted that the Brotherhood of Steel in lore should have mopped the floor with the California Republic because numbers wouldn't matter versus PA being invulnerable to small arms fire. I then pointed out, lore wise, there's plenty of non-small arms fire weapons available to the soldiers of it from rocket launchers to artillery to grenades and laser/plasma weapons. Which meant the fight really could be settled by attrition.
He was unconvinced and basically thought the only reason the BOS didn't rule the wasteland was they were too kewl for school.
Prone Squanderer
A bit of a Sillius Soddus.
He'd be right about it at the start of hostilities, but not as time went on. A strong man could fight off weaker attackers but if he kept being swarmed he'd eventually fall.
I guess he felt the Mojave Brotherhood should have been like Fallout 3/4's. *shudder*
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
He was actually a F1/F2 fan but his view was the Brotherhood of Steel was so incredibly awesome that the Wastelanders were utterly helpless against them. There's a reason Bethesda catered to the folks like that and the misguided idea behind the shooting game. Hell, even why tactics exists.
People love the BOS.
You know, despite the fact they're a bunch of inbred Raiders.
NMLevesque
Commie Ghost
Even small arms fire would eventually do the job. Unless Fallout is a universe where physics works entirely on thresholds or something. I guess it's been pretty inconsistent. Fo & Fo2 had PA negate far more, barring harsh crits, but at the same time something like the Bozar could rip through it with ease. NV's Bozar is kind of...fun I guess? Same caliber, faster fire, and way less effective. I miss the beast the Bozar was, since there isn't really any good equivalent in later titles.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
I think of power armor as basically bipedal tanks. Small arms fire wouldn't penetrate that.
In general I always go for the truce solution. Through mods I even re added the House-Bos and Legion-Bos alliances that had been cut from the vanilla game.
Also I don't think the BOS in Fallout New Vegas was an afterthought or something Bethesda insisted upon. I think the people who worked on Fallout 2 always intended to continue on the BOS and their slow decline.
They would have appeared in Van Buren and they are not out of place in FNV either.
The only thing that sometimes irks me is that because of Fallout 3 and 3 a lot of Fallout fans believe the BOS should always play a more prominent role.
Perhaps they did so in FO1 but in FO2 it was made clear that the Brotherhood was never a major player in the politics of the wasteland, preferring to stay out of it instead.
Fallout Tactics, FOBOS, and Fallout 3 and 4 pushed them more to the foreground.
But as for the future of the Brotherhood of Steel, the Western one as I pretty much ignore the fan wank East coast one.
Yes they will eventually die out and disappear. It is the result of their own policies and conservative nature and their lack of flexibility as an organization (individually BOS members are much more flexible and open minded)
But I don't mind them being gone in time, their role is played out any way. Had Obsidian continued the series and had Fallout 3 and 4 not existed something else would eventually would have taken their place as a primarily technology oriented faction.
Had I been on a team developing a sequel to Fallout New Vegas I would really liked to have put in the idea that the Elders of the West coast Brotherhood decided to blow up Lost Hills when the NCR army came to close and it became apparent that the BOS would not be able to hold the bunker.
It would not be the complete destruction of the BOS as the Hidden Valley chapter and a couple of other chapters would survive and continue, Hidden Valley even becoming the West coast BOS new headquarters.
But the BOS would never recover from their loss.
Regarding the securitron and the BOS wanting to take control of it. Previously I would have agreed but the BOS seem in general to be very little interested in robots and incorporating these into their own ranks, or at least in Fallout 1, 2, and New Vegas despite there being plenty of robots around for them to salvage.
In Tactics they would of course take control of the Calculator's pacification robots in one ending, and in Fallout 3 the Outcast added robots to their own patrols.
But in Fallout 4 the BOS was never interested in capturing the Institute or taking control of it in order to get access to its android numbers and manufacturing plant despite the advantages it would offer to them.
Perhaps there is some kind of distrust of BOS members against robots, using them for anything other than non combat tasks and roles that don't involve them having supervising positions or independence of any kind?
It could be that the Brotherhood prefers to depend on robots as little as possible, not wanting human intelligence to become obsolete.
Also I don't think the BOS in Fallout New Vegas was an afterthought or something Bethesda insisted upon. I think the people who worked on Fallout 2 always intended to continue on the BOS and their slow decline.
They would have appeared in Van Buren and they are not out of place in FNV either.
The only thing that sometimes irks me is that because of Fallout 3 and 3 a lot of Fallout fans believe the BOS should always play a more prominent role.
Perhaps they did so in FO1 but in FO2 it was made clear that the Brotherhood was never a major player in the politics of the wasteland, preferring to stay out of it instead.
Fallout Tactics, FOBOS, and Fallout 3 and 4 pushed them more to the foreground.
But as for the future of the Brotherhood of Steel, the Western one as I pretty much ignore the fan wank East coast one.
Yes they will eventually die out and disappear. It is the result of their own policies and conservative nature and their lack of flexibility as an organization (individually BOS members are much more flexible and open minded)
But I don't mind them being gone in time, their role is played out any way. Had Obsidian continued the series and had Fallout 3 and 4 not existed something else would eventually would have taken their place as a primarily technology oriented faction.
Had I been on a team developing a sequel to Fallout New Vegas I would really liked to have put in the idea that the Elders of the West coast Brotherhood decided to blow up Lost Hills when the NCR army came to close and it became apparent that the BOS would not be able to hold the bunker.
It would not be the complete destruction of the BOS as the Hidden Valley chapter and a couple of other chapters would survive and continue, Hidden Valley even becoming the West coast BOS new headquarters.
But the BOS would never recover from their loss.
Regarding the securitron and the BOS wanting to take control of it. Previously I would have agreed but the BOS seem in general to be very little interested in robots and incorporating these into their own ranks, or at least in Fallout 1, 2, and New Vegas despite there being plenty of robots around for them to salvage.
In Tactics they would of course take control of the Calculator's pacification robots in one ending, and in Fallout 3 the Outcast added robots to their own patrols.
But in Fallout 4 the BOS was never interested in capturing the Institute or taking control of it in order to get access to its android numbers and manufacturing plant despite the advantages it would offer to them.
Perhaps there is some kind of distrust of BOS members against robots, using them for anything other than non combat tasks and roles that don't involve them having supervising positions or independence of any kind?
It could be that the Brotherhood prefers to depend on robots as little as possible, not wanting human intelligence to become obsolete.
Although, by the technical terms provided by the games, It is much weaker than any tank.
Now that is not really that much protection. I will quote someone else here because they explained better than i can at the moment:
http://fallout.gamepedia.com/T-51_power_armor
So a 7.62x51mm or .308 can already pass the limit of the T-51. Now if we look at Fallout games, most weapons that use those calibers (.308 and 7.62z51mm) wouldn't even scratch a real tank:
Fallout 2:
- M60
- FN FAL
- Hunting rifle
- Sniper rifle
- Vindicator minigun
- AK47
- M249 SAW
- M60
- FN FAL
- 7.62mm assault rifle
- Sniper rifle
- Automatic rifle
- Battle rifle
- Hunting rifle
- Sniper rifle
- Hunting rifle
- Pipe bolt-action
- Combat rifle (modified)
- Pipe revolver (modified)
- Handmade rifle
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
I generally talk about the Brotherhood of Steel getting the short end of the stick in Fallout 4 but this didn't bother me as the whole point of the East Coast BoS is that they're something of a reactionary movement to Elder Lyons. That was actually interesting and could have been explored more (though it requires you to actually take Fallout 3 and its BOS seriously like I do).
They're trying to be more conservative but they're not slaves to the Codex either. The big difference is the fact Arthur Maxon grew up in the hellhole of the Capital Wasteland and is an enormous racist who hates anything which is nonhuman.
He's combined the "Technology is Dangerous" and "Kill all Evil" elements of the West and Lyons BoS to create "Technologically made creatures are evil." Hence he wants to wipe out Super Mutants (made by FEV tech), Ghouls (made by radiation), and Synths (made by technology).
Mind you, robots AREN'T sentient in Fallout except for ZAX computers and Synths. Even Bethesda agrees since the terminals in the comic book shop are one big long take that to Codsworth (who apparently the writers HATED the concept of). Curie gets a pass but I think they both qualify as canon violations and should be treated as nonsentient versus Synths and Zaxes.
NMLevesque
Commie Ghost
Eh, physics begs to differ. If erosion would eventually wear down any metal structure we make, corrosion aside, then at minimum the scratches and dings would eventually accumulate. It's just not practical in the case of a tank, but not physically impossible. PA would be less than that. Maybe impractical still, but not impossible.
Einhanderc7
Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection
Every time I consider the basic details of the BOS I always seem to compare them to the Mechanicus from 40K, I'm aware that's a bit of a stretch, however they are both equally dogmatic as well technology oriented.
The issue I have with any power armor argument is that there are so many different kinds, and every time a new game comes out new ones are added as if someone out there actually has the resources to develop them. I'm sure all these different kinds are built for specific purposes or uses in mind. Which makes comparing them all the more difficult.
If I was a writer for this franchise I would have the BOS actually do what it is that they do, as in search out technology and foam at the mouth from the kool-aid. From my perspective from Fallout 1 and 2, they appeared as if they were a techno cult of introverts trying to sound like the pinnacle of what it is to be heavily armed. They not only overtly try to get people killed with silly quests (Glow), but also treat any non member with enough disdain to put a fairly big chip on their shoulder.
I would find it much more likely that the BOS would have more enemies due to their equipment and train of thought.
What I would like to see the BOS do in a future title is literally attack some kind of infrastructure that is producing hi-tech items. But have it be a long and protracted battle since the nature of the goods are volatile or dangerous in some fashion. But even then I would only want it as a encounter out in the open wastes than just walking up into their bunker and waving at a dude in power armor.
The largest issue I have with how the BOS is portrayed is that they are always hunkered down somewhere, why not just make them a random encounter that reveals them? I think that would add to their mystique and at least allow them to survive outside of the lame machinations of main plot lines.
The issue I have with any power armor argument is that there are so many different kinds, and every time a new game comes out new ones are added as if someone out there actually has the resources to develop them. I'm sure all these different kinds are built for specific purposes or uses in mind. Which makes comparing them all the more difficult.
If I was a writer for this franchise I would have the BOS actually do what it is that they do, as in search out technology and foam at the mouth from the kool-aid. From my perspective from Fallout 1 and 2, they appeared as if they were a techno cult of introverts trying to sound like the pinnacle of what it is to be heavily armed. They not only overtly try to get people killed with silly quests (Glow), but also treat any non member with enough disdain to put a fairly big chip on their shoulder.
I would find it much more likely that the BOS would have more enemies due to their equipment and train of thought.
What I would like to see the BOS do in a future title is literally attack some kind of infrastructure that is producing hi-tech items. But have it be a long and protracted battle since the nature of the goods are volatile or dangerous in some fashion. But even then I would only want it as a encounter out in the open wastes than just walking up into their bunker and waving at a dude in power armor.
The largest issue I have with how the BOS is portrayed is that they are always hunkered down somewhere, why not just make them a random encounter that reveals them? I think that would add to their mystique and at least allow them to survive outside of the lame machinations of main plot lines.
Unorthodox Outlander
It Wandered In From the Wastes
There's not much I can say outside of what everybody else has. Destroy the base of operations, the smarter ones will get out and disperse. Any that make themselves a nuisance afterwards can eat .50 rounds.
Death to raider scum!
Death to raider scum!
uprightshark
First time out of the vault
I am just finishing my first play through, where I let Yes Man rule the world .. lol I am playing on XBOX, so no access to modded alternate endings (unfortunately)
I have to say, regardless of what one feels about the BoS in any other games, I felt they were a missed opportunity to add to the plot line in New Vegas. I agree with allot of the comments here, that there would have been ways to raise their profile, even if you did decide to kill them off.
Like them or hate them, the BoS add an interesting dynamic to the story given there nature to try and isolate themselves from the remainder of what remains of civilization. The obsession with gear is a distraction plot wise, but to me the importance to the plot line to be exploited here would have been their isolationist characteristic, while being a continued military threat.
I completely agree that their threat was somewhat diminished as a result of their losses to the NCR, but I have a problem believing that the greater BoS organization would let these failures stand unanswered and not reinforce the local chapters, even if they would look at the local Elders as incompetent for these loses. There could have been a whole line of story and quests going down this road, to have the BoS reassert their military superiority over the west and be that third player versus the NCR and Legion.
That said, NV is already a very large and rich game and maybe the decision of Obsidian was simply, we can't be everything to everyone and led them toi chose to make them into a minor role. That view of the BoS was obviously not shared by Bethesda, as they had a bigger seat at the table in FO4 and hopefully beyond.
I have to say, regardless of what one feels about the BoS in any other games, I felt they were a missed opportunity to add to the plot line in New Vegas. I agree with allot of the comments here, that there would have been ways to raise their profile, even if you did decide to kill them off.
Like them or hate them, the BoS add an interesting dynamic to the story given there nature to try and isolate themselves from the remainder of what remains of civilization. The obsession with gear is a distraction plot wise, but to me the importance to the plot line to be exploited here would have been their isolationist characteristic, while being a continued military threat.
I completely agree that their threat was somewhat diminished as a result of their losses to the NCR, but I have a problem believing that the greater BoS organization would let these failures stand unanswered and not reinforce the local chapters, even if they would look at the local Elders as incompetent for these loses. There could have been a whole line of story and quests going down this road, to have the BoS reassert their military superiority over the west and be that third player versus the NCR and Legion.
That said, NV is already a very large and rich game and maybe the decision of Obsidian was simply, we can't be everything to everyone and led them toi chose to make them into a minor role. That view of the BoS was obviously not shared by Bethesda, as they had a bigger seat at the table in FO4 and hopefully beyond.
Wasn't it told directly, or at least implied, that BoS as a whole is in a desperate position and that reinforcement from chapters to the West was simply impossible?
I can't recall exactly, but I think something along those lines was shown in the game.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
The BOS didn't just lose the NCR-BOS War--they were outright decimated by it and could be on the verge of destruction.
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Highly dependent on the character i'm roleplaying. So far I've destroyed them with a Mr. House aligned character and Legion aligned character. You are forced to destroy them with both these factions though (wish they kept the option to leave them alive with Mr. House in the game though). But i did made a truce with the NCR in my NCR aligned character.
Still don't know what i'm going to do with my Yes Man aligned character.
Still don't know what i'm going to do with my Yes Man aligned character.