The death penalty

[Bradylama]

PsychoSniper](I think those are ugly old farts that dont need 2 worry bout rape, lol.)

No, they go back to prison because they're fed and clothed by the government. Its basically a big free ride.

And nobody is safe from getting raped in jail.

 

[Maverick]

You guys want to hear something funny?

I'm Texan.







And I'm against the death penalty.

Wierd, no?

Of course, it could have something to do with my upbringing, I wasn't raised in Texas, or in the United States for that matter, I grew up overseas. I spoke better French than English as a little kid!

 

[John Uskglass]

Where did you grow up? France?

I think that some percentage of the population of Texas is not that bad, but frankly, I would not be crying if Texas declared independance.

Khran, you still do not understand. America is a group of United STATES. There are a bunch of STATES, each bloc of them having diffirent opinons and diffirent levels of being "civilized".

 

[alec]

I'm all for it. Yeah, I got no problem whatsoever with a nice little execution from time to time. And, hell, they should be broadcasted as well, live on your telly, so you can buy a six-pack and some corndogs and chill out with your friends or with your family.

No, seriously: in some cases (childkillers and pedophiles and mass murderers and corrupt politicians and sleazy housewives and terrorists and... you get the picture) corporal punishment and death penalty are the only solutions left.

 

[Maverick]

Where did you grow up? France?

I grew up in Africa.

I'm all for it. Yeah, I got no problem whatsoever with a nice little execution from time to time. And, hell, they should be broadcasted as well, live on your telly, so you can buy a six-pack and some corndogs and chill out with your friends or with your family.

I thought they did that, broadcast big execuctions on TV on certain channels?

 

[Brother None]

Khran, you still do not understand. America is a group of United STATES. There are a bunch of STATES, each bloc of them having diffirent opinons and diffirent levels of being "civilized".

...

You're still not spelling my name right.

And did you see any mention in my post of the US being more or less civilized than Europe (apart from my saying that that statement would be unfair)?

You're drawing this discussion to America where it doesn't belong, just like welsh. You guys are so Americacentric I was discussing civilization tied to death penalty, you guys turn it into a rant about American and europe. I wasn't even touching on the subject, jeesh. Seriously, re-read my first post. Even the second doesn't mention the USA

Jeesh, Americams. Do you ever not think about America?

 

[welsh]

I'm sorry.

It's just that,
well....

We're sensitive people.

That's why when we get hit with a terrorist strike we invade a country and bomb the crap out of it.



and do the same to a country that had no part in the first attack
Just because it's there.


But that doesn't make us bad people, does it?



Uncivilized?

What, with a guy like George Bush as President?


But I better stop now because with this new Homeland Security, well I might just get-

(PS- Kharn these emoticons are fun!)

And yes, I would agree, any country that treats its criminals with a death penalty is something less than civilized. My point was that the Euros have this habit of feeling "holier than thou" and shouldn't. Don't get me wrong. I love Europe. I love the people, the women, the ability to sit outside and have wine and cheese, the topless beaches, the architecture, the history, the alps, etc.

My point was also that absence of a death penalty is not a sufficient condition, although it might be a necessary condition.

Wasn't it Foucault who said that you can measure the humanity of a society by the way it treats its least members?

I will accept that a person who commits an act of murder forfeits his right to be respected as a human being because his act mean that he has broken the rule that we should treat each other with humanity and basic dignity. A person who fails to recognize the basic humanity of another person, or recklessly robs another of that is no better than an animal, and as such perhaps deserves to be put down.

But for a society to put that person down means that the society itself has acted, that has made the basic decision to judge a living person on unredeemable and without human worth. Society itself abandons its obligation to treat all its citizens with basic humanity.

Regardless of the reasons or justifications for its actions, a society like a man, is judged not by their motivations but by their actions. Whether we believe that the economic costs of maintaining a murder in prison are not worth keeping, or if society has the right to feel revenge, that's not good enough.

I will accept that the reasons why some people kill is purely an individual decision, but in some cases (perhaps many cases) the reason why some people commit murder and others do not has to do with socio-economic structural conditions. Just like how the role of guns has a different role in different societies (oh no, no lets not turn this in a gun thread Gwydion) so to should we expect that people become murders, in some cases, to the circumstances in which they find themselves. While this doesn't excuse the person of guilt or fault, neither should that allow the society to escape without an sharing in the murderous event.

 

[Brother None]

(PS- Kharn these emoticons are fun!)

*I* picked them....

I'm still modest, though. God-like, yes, but also modest.

And yes, I would agree, any country that treats its criminals with a death penalty is something less than civilized. My point was that the Euros have this habit of feeling "holier than thou" and shouldn't.

Lots of Europeans can be really high-and-mighty about having no death penalties in their respective legal systems, but they forget what happened after WW II.

I hate it when people tell me what I've already said myself.

Wasn't it Foucault who said that you can measure the humanity of a society by the way it treats its least members?

In that case, he'd hate the USA. As great a country as you may be, you don't stand out in good treatment of your least members.

 

[Ugly John]

ok i'm back on this thread, drunk driving which causes death should equal death penalty too.
Killing and/or raping a child should equal death penalty AND the option of killing the criminal should be given to the family, ie if it happens to one of my kids, i should be able to kill the bastard after i've beaten him up.

Recently here a child was mollested by a bus driver, when the father found out he went and beat the crap out of him.
Now the driover has been acquited with therapy and stuff, and the father now faces jail time.

Fair my ass.

 

[Brother None]

Recently here a child was mollested by a bus driver, when the father found out he went and beat the crap out of him.
Now the driover has been acquited with therapy and stuff, and the father now faces jail time.

That's personal justice.

Ever imagine what would happen to a society that *would* allow people to talke personal revenge like that? It'd make the entire judicial system collapse, it'd mean anarchy.

There's a reason personal justice is forbidden; because it's not justice. The bus driver never had a chance to prove himself innocent, he got attacked by a wild madman. What if he hadn't done it? Is that justice?

 

[John Uskglass]

In that case, he'd hate the USA. As great a country as you may be, you don't stand out in good treatment of your least members.

Maybe thirty years ago, but now that is anything but the truth. We have Unitarian churches in plain sight, we have millionare white kids wearing FUBU...we have our problems, but we are MUCH better then any nation (outside of Canada) for integration, probably better then the Dutch even. Compare our KKK and NoI to Germany's National Democratic party for instance.

One of the oddest things in Europe I noticed (when I was 15 and my twin sisters where 1), that there is no acces to anything anywhere for the disabled or strollers. In America, you basically will have every kind of liberal up your ass about anything if you do not have a ramp or anything else for the disabled. I'm a bit mentally handicapped in some areas, and everything (or almost, more so in some schools) is tailored to my numerous disorders.

Also, need I mention the educational caste system on the Continent? I never liked that about anywhere outside of the US. Education is traditionally just not that important in America.

 

[welsh]

*I* picked them....

I'm still modest, though. God-like, yes, but also modest.



I hate it when people tell me what I've already said myself.

Wasn't it Foucault who said that you can measure the humanity of a society by the way it treats its least members?

In that case, he'd hate the USA. As great a country as you may be, you don't stand out in good treatment of your least members.

Ah, here comes the Holier than Thou Euro doing the smack down on the US. I thought you said you weren't saying that in this post?


Tsk tsk tsk

PS= and there are only a few really good emoticons. there were a lot more you should have gotten.

 

[Brother None]

In that case, he'd hate the USA. As great a country as you may be, you don't stand out in good treatment of your least members.

Maybe thirty years ago, but now that is anything but the truth. We have Unitarian churches in plain sight, we have millionare white kids wearing FUBU...we have our problems, but we are MUCH better then any nation (outside of Canada) for integration, probably better then the Dutch even. Compare our KKK and NoI to Germany's National Democratic party for instance.

One of the oddest things in Europe I noticed (when I was 15 and my twin sisters where 1), that there is no acces to anything anywhere for the disabled or strollers. In America, you basically will have every kind of liberal up your ass about anything if you do not have a ramp or anything else for the disabled. I'm a bit mentally handicapped in some areas, and everything (or almost, more so in some schools) is tailored to my numerous disorders.

Also, need I mention the educational caste system on the Continent? I never liked that about anywhere outside of the US. Education is traditionally just not that important in America.

I didn't say anything about integration.

Also, disabeled access laws have been taken care of in most European constitutions. It's a matter of law in Europe, disabled have access to most public places. Never seen it otherwise, haven't seen a single public building anywhere in Europe that didn't have disabled access, to my memory, and I've been all over Europe...

Anyway, if I understand you right, here's what you're saying:

1. The USA gives you education for free if you can not pay for it ór doesn't use education as a mode to judge whether or not you're a good applicant for a job at all. So not educational caste system.

2. The excellent American wellfare system is incredibly cheap or free, meaning less than 5% of the people have no access to general healthcare, and all the people can get immediate help if necessary.

3. If you loose your job in America, you get a decent wellfare check. You also aren't forced into a position where you have to look for work that is below par for you in stead of taking your time to seek a proper job. Also, special allowences are made for single mothers and other people in difficult positions.

4. Foreigners are allowed into the country with a nominally light system of judgement and in large numbers. Economical refugees aren't denied outright. A person wanting to enter America and become a permanent resident doesn't have to speak the American language or have any knowledge of the American history. Once inside the country, the immigrant is open to complete equal judgement; he or she can get an education for free, suited to his/her intelligent and get any job suiting his/her intelligence from then on, up to CEO of a company. Also, immigrants can become president.

5. No more than 10% of the people have ever been below the poverty line. On average, 5% of the people are below the poverty line.

6. All the above are true for America or handled not a percentage better in Europe. This is what you're saying, right?

 

[Loxley]

One of the oddest things in Europe I noticed (when I was 15 and my twin sisters where 1), that there is no acces to anything anywhere for the disabled or strollers. In America, you basically will have every kind of liberal up your ass about anything if you do not have a ramp or anything else for the disabled. I'm a bit mentally handicapped in some areas, and everything (or almost, more so in some schools) is tailored to my numerous disorders.

You have never been to norway right?

 

[Sander]

ConstipatedCrapRunner:

I have one question: Which countries did you go to where you noticed those things? A lot of things differ a lot per country. Wellfare, integration, education and whatnot can be really different depending on the country you're in.

 

[Ugly John]

Recently here a child was mollested by a bus driver, when the father found out he went and beat the crap out of him.
Now the driover has been acquited with therapy and stuff, and the father now faces jail time.

That's personal justice.

Ever imagine what would happen to a society that *would* allow people to talke personal revenge like that? It'd make the entire judicial system collapse, it'd mean anarchy.

There's a reason personal justice is forbidden; because it's not justice. The bus driver never had a chance to prove himself innocent, he got attacked by a wild madman. What if he hadn't done it? Is that justice?

Thing is he was caught red-handed, the father just got to him before the police.

 

[Brother None]

Thing is he was caught red-handed, the father just got to him before the police.

Same rule still applies.

Allowing parents to castrate the bastard, that touched their child, after a fair trial = good

Allowing parents to just castrate people outright = bad

 

[John Uskglass]

ConstipatedCrapRunner:

I have one question: Which countries did you go to where you noticed those things? A lot of things differ a lot per country. Wellfare, integration, education and whatnot can be really different depending on the country you're in.

Britan, southern France, Austria, drove thru Switzerland.

 

[Sander]

<sarcasm>Oh, now I can see how you can definitely speak about how the USA's wellfare system is much better, and that everything is basically better in the USA than in every country in Europe.</sarcasm>

Seriously, though, when you use an argument, make it have some basis. Unlike what language Iraqis actually speak, what you said IS relevant to your argument.

Now, onto what you said:
Ignoring integration(Becuase I can't speak about that.)

You claim that you take better care of your members because you have disabled access, which you didn't see in all of the countries you've been to. Now, I have to say that there is almost always to any public building in the entire European Union I've been to(France, Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Britain, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands and probably some othe countries too) good disabled access. And if there is not, go sure the bastards who own the building.

And then you say something about educational caste. The reason there is educational caste here, is because there is better diversity in education here. There are different levels of education, and we don't throw everyone into the same type of middle school(or high-school, or whatever). Which is why there is special education tailored to the levels of the people visiting those schools. Now, I'm not saying that educational caste is good, but I'm pretty sure that it's almost unavoidable when you have scaled education(Which is practically necessary for good level-based education).

 

[Loxley]

What do you means when you say the caste system in education?