WillisPDunlevey
Mildly Dipped
if you wait until 2013 you will be able to pick up guns cheaply from all the "preppers" who ran up their credit cards and invested everything they own in "suvive the 'pockalypse" gear.
The Guns and Ammo Thread
- Thread starter Kalessin
- Start date
Mildly Dipped
DevilTakeMe
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
That just says more about the 12/21/12 crowd than preppers. And that's "Pockalips" by the way.
Wait a couple more years when the US military adopts a new rifle, and you'll see a flood of cheap surplus M4s on the market.
There's already plenty of cheap guns out there now if you want to look, but the reason why certain guns are gouged are because of video games or folks ignorant of weapons and base their purchases on what's "Tacticool" or what they saw on a tv show or movie. Those guys will pay more, so vendors and other sellers sell for more.
And sometimes it's not the buyer. The guys at my local gun store told me that they sell lots of Mosin Nagants because of "Enemy at the Gates" and not because it's an older full sized rifle chambered in a big 7.62x54R for a very low price point.
Wait a couple more years when the US military adopts a new rifle, and you'll see a flood of cheap surplus M4s on the market.
There's already plenty of cheap guns out there now if you want to look, but the reason why certain guns are gouged are because of video games or folks ignorant of weapons and base their purchases on what's "Tacticool" or what they saw on a tv show or movie. Those guys will pay more, so vendors and other sellers sell for more.
And sometimes it's not the buyer. The guys at my local gun store told me that they sell lots of Mosin Nagants because of "Enemy at the Gates" and not because it's an older full sized rifle chambered in a big 7.62x54R for a very low price point.
the_cpl
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Wrong. Gun owners don't buy firearms because a fake Mayan calendar story.
El Pagano Loco
It Wandered In From the Wastes
the_cpl said:
They do.
the_cpl
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
El Pagano Loco said:
Like who?
I don't, that's for sure, and I bought 4 firearms in the past several years. I watch prepper videos online, and I never heard anyone talk about Mayans or Planets.Check out Penn and Teller's show about that "Mayan calendar tale", or the "Planet X".
Anyway, just because a planet doesn't crash into the Earth, the fact is, we have tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, floods. High crime rates too. If you pass 2012, it doesn't mean there is no more crime or hurricanes.
What about collectors? What about hunters? What about people who like target shooting?I guess you don't think all the people say: "Huh, It's January 1st, 2013. Nothing happened, so just sell everything we got."
DevilTakeMe
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
DammitBoy said:
I didn't say "everyone" would get one. Average Joe Public won't be able to go into the store and buy a burst fire M4, but he'll likely be able to get a surplus M4 in semi-auto fire with the right paperwork. A registered receiver stops being a machine gun when its properly demilled and a semi-auto trigger set installed, which turns it into a class 2 weapon for being a short barreled rifle.
Furthermore, it's going to be a few years before you see any of this.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if a few registered M16s are converted into M4s through legal means. That's just a matter of replacing the upper receiver of the M16 with the M4 and putting on a collapsible stock. Buying an actual M4 without modification is no more expensive or difficult. Buying the M16 alone would be in the many thousands upon thousands.
As a civilian, buying an auto-sear or a lightning thing to convert your semi-auto M16 or M4 clone to auto-fire will cost you roughly $10,000 for the part, plus all the paperwork and legalities and agency. So that's not even really a problem.
Otherwise, the military has procedures for demilitarization - there's nothing preventing people from reassembling them for civilian use after the process. There's a lot of those guns, and they're going to be bought at government auction block like all the other crap I've seen. Someone's going to buy them on the cheap, be it another country or whatever, and any company that got their hands on them would foolish not to turn them around and get them on the market one way or another. Civilian use included.
Buy a bunch of surplus weapons on the cheap (there's no way in hell that anyone would buy them for even half their original price - buying in bulk afterall), spend about a hundred bucks a unit on rewelding/installing a semi-auto kit, turn it around and sell for twice what you paid for it and you'd still be coming in under the clone knock-offs that were competing and be making a killing on the market.
It's simply an investment opportunity. The M16 has been around for a long time, and lot of people have wanted the genuine article. That point would be a good time, so long as the work is quality.
From there, I just don't see qualified gunsmiths turning down work to convert used M16s and M4s into semi-auto rifles by rewelding/replacing the receivers and installing semi-auto fire trigger kits.
the_cpl
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
DammitBoy is right. Those full autos on the market are made before the ban (1986). You can find several A1-s for sale, for like 20.000-25.000, but I don't think average people can afford them. You can't buy an A4 as a civilian. You can buy an A4 TYPE semi-auto AR-15.
WillisPDunlevey
Mildly Dipped
I would guess that he meant/was hoping that when the army gets rid of M4s, they will strip the receivers and sell parts kits on the open market.
From there, you could weld on a longer flashider (14.5 now equals 16") and add a semi only reciver and trigger parts. I think you would also have to buy a semi only bolt carrier as well.
There are some old A1 style kits on the market... but those dont typically have barrels (either destroyed during demil or too shot out anyway).
My guess is that all the M4s will end up with the national guard or will be provided as aid in the FMA program... civilians wont see any of the parts.
From there, you could weld on a longer flashider (14.5 now equals 16") and add a semi only reciver and trigger parts. I think you would also have to buy a semi only bolt carrier as well.
There are some old A1 style kits on the market... but those dont typically have barrels (either destroyed during demil or too shot out anyway).
My guess is that all the M4s will end up with the national guard or will be provided as aid in the FMA program... civilians wont see any of the parts.
DevilTakeMe
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Wills understands what I'm saying.
Demilling makes a rifle not "military" anymore. The ATF considers a demilled weapon "parts" - and if you saw a demilled receiver, you'd know why.
A demilled receiver is chopped into three parts, which renders them inoperable. Under ATF guidelines, demilled guns are no longer considered guns because of this, and are instead considered parts, and may be reconstituted into a working gun in semi-automatic confiuration.
There's nothing stopping anyone from putting the receiver back together, as long as it's not in full-auto. As a matter of fact, there are a few ARs out there that use demilled lowers that are completely legal to own.
Springfield made their early M1A rifles from surplus GI M14 parts that you might be able to find out there, the same applies to "current issue" weapons.
US Ordnance, who makes new M60s for the government, for instance, has ATF approval for selling mil-spec M60s in semi-automatic configuration to civilians. (They also have approval to make M249s for civvies, but are currently too tied up M60s to do so.)
You may buy an auto-sear or a Lightning Link for your civilian AR which converts it into a full auto. The auto-sear is completely legal to own. But, and this is the important part, if you decide to actually put it into your firearm without ATF approval, it will come with a 10 year jail sentence and a criminal conviction.
A Lightning Link similarly may not be combined with the weapon it was designed for. But if you can manage to fit on a different platform, it would be perfectly legal to own and operate in full auto. But you can't, because it wouldn't fit.
As for the bolt carrier (which trips off the auto-sear), that's more of a local issue. M16 auto bolt carrier groups can be installed on ARs in some states, like Oregon, but not in others.
I can go out to a gun store in California and buy a conversion kit to turn my 1911 into a rifle, but I'm not allowed to combine them because a pistol turns into an "assault weapon" under California Law without the additional installation of a bullet button (which makes the magazine non-detachable). The damn thing would pretty much be legal elsewhere.
Demilling makes a rifle not "military" anymore. The ATF considers a demilled weapon "parts" - and if you saw a demilled receiver, you'd know why.
A demilled receiver is chopped into three parts, which renders them inoperable. Under ATF guidelines, demilled guns are no longer considered guns because of this, and are instead considered parts, and may be reconstituted into a working gun in semi-automatic confiuration.
There's nothing stopping anyone from putting the receiver back together, as long as it's not in full-auto. As a matter of fact, there are a few ARs out there that use demilled lowers that are completely legal to own.
Springfield made their early M1A rifles from surplus GI M14 parts that you might be able to find out there, the same applies to "current issue" weapons.
US Ordnance, who makes new M60s for the government, for instance, has ATF approval for selling mil-spec M60s in semi-automatic configuration to civilians. (They also have approval to make M249s for civvies, but are currently too tied up M60s to do so.)
You may buy an auto-sear or a Lightning Link for your civilian AR which converts it into a full auto. The auto-sear is completely legal to own. But, and this is the important part, if you decide to actually put it into your firearm without ATF approval, it will come with a 10 year jail sentence and a criminal conviction.
A Lightning Link similarly may not be combined with the weapon it was designed for. But if you can manage to fit on a different platform, it would be perfectly legal to own and operate in full auto. But you can't, because it wouldn't fit.
As for the bolt carrier (which trips off the auto-sear), that's more of a local issue. M16 auto bolt carrier groups can be installed on ARs in some states, like Oregon, but not in others.
I can go out to a gun store in California and buy a conversion kit to turn my 1911 into a rifle, but I'm not allowed to combine them because a pistol turns into an "assault weapon" under California Law without the additional installation of a bullet button (which makes the magazine non-detachable). The damn thing would pretty much be legal elsewhere.
Looks like there's a trend for making shotguns with weird magazines.
The SRM Model 1216 definitely looks 'futuristic'.
The tube under the barrel contains four magazines for up to four shells each, and you rotate the tube to go for the next magazine.
It's semi automatic, action is similar to the roller-delayed blowback mechanism of the the H&K MP5, G3 and so on.
The SRM Model 1216 definitely looks 'futuristic'.
The tube under the barrel contains four magazines for up to four shells each, and you rotate the tube to go for the next magazine.
It's semi automatic, action is similar to the roller-delayed blowback mechanism of the the H&K MP5, G3 and so on.
TheGM
The voice of reason
Isn't that the shotgun from Deus Ex: Human Revolution?
DevilTakeMe
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
It's an interesting design, definitely has all the makings of a "tacticool" system.
The magazine, however, seems too "gimmicky" for practical use. I watched a video of one of their representatives talking about it. In the video you can see just how impractical that magazine would be to carry around.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M29ewKBjCf8[/youtube]
If they had designed and marketed it to for the utilitarian - for instance, with a different load per tube - one tube for door breach, etc. maybe I could see a market (if rather specialized) for tactical use.
Pricewise? The thing is about $2500. Compare that to Saiga type auto-loaders with conventional box magazines.
The magazine, however, seems too "gimmicky" for practical use. I watched a video of one of their representatives talking about it. In the video you can see just how impractical that magazine would be to carry around.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M29ewKBjCf8[/youtube]
If they had designed and marketed it to for the utilitarian - for instance, with a different load per tube - one tube for door breach, etc. maybe I could see a market (if rather specialized) for tactical use.
Pricewise? The thing is about $2500. Compare that to Saiga type auto-loaders with conventional box magazines.
DevilTakeMe said:
Still completely wrong.
The U.S government has decided that any full auto firearms held by the military will either be sold to other nations or destroyed, not demilled.
As with the M14, even though it could legally be owned by collectors (because of it's pre-ban birthdate) the Government refused to release them to the public and destroyed those that they did not sell or give away to other nations.
You are proof that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Quit pretending you know what you're posting about.
TheGM
The voice of reason
DammitBoy said:
You mean they are destroying M14s?
I AM OUTRAGED!!!!!!
*puts on "Is Outraged" hat*
DevilTakeMe
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
DammitBoy said:
You're just sticking your fingers in your ears and going "No, no, no, you're wrong, I'm right!"
Demilling IS considered destroying them by the US government.
"Destroyed" M14 receivers via demilling. They've been torch cut, and can lawfully be welded back together to make a new rifle as long as it's configured in semi-auto.
The ATF set guidelines that receivers from military weapons are to be cut up into three parts. M14s were torch cut. M16s can be either crushed into three parts or torch cut as well.
Demilled M16 receivers. "Destroyed" as considered by law, and fully legal to reassemble.
The reason why you don't think they get released to the public is because they're not released as "M14 parts" they're released to the public as "scrap metal."
The ATF also set up guidelines to follow on how to rebuild them and how to market them. Hahn Machine made many semi-automatic M14s from demilled parts and did everything properly and legally from 1990-1995. Which, I do believe is after the ban on "machine guns."
MK Systems did not do things right, and the ensuing debacle is probably what you're thinking of.
Here's a Hahn rewelded M14 with everything done correctly using previously "destroyed" M14 parts, made and sold legally in the United States.
Sorry, DammitBoy, but you aren't quite as "knowledgeable" as you claim to be.
the_cpl
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Why would you buy these stripped "demilled" useless things, if you can buy a brand new lower receiver for $80? 
DevilTakeMe
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
History. You know gun guys with that, they like having matching numbers on everything.
If the Tacticool crowd likes fitting as much crap onto a gun as possible, the history buffs like making sure all the numbers on their guns match what came out of the factory.
Right now this sort of thing is relegated to do-it-yourself guys or the "retro" builders who rebuild those guns in older configurations.
Hell, just having the demilled parts alone as collectors items brings in some cash.
If the Tacticool crowd likes fitting as much crap onto a gun as possible, the history buffs like making sure all the numbers on their guns match what came out of the factory.
Right now this sort of thing is relegated to do-it-yourself guys or the "retro" builders who rebuild those guns in older configurations.
Hell, just having the demilled parts alone as collectors items brings in some cash.
El Pagano Loco
It Wandered In From the Wastes
DevilTakeMe said:
They made wrestling chairs out of them?