TheGM
The voice of reason
the_cpl said:Why would you buy these stripped "demilled" useless things, if you can buy a brand new lower receiver for $80?
where does one acquire one of these $80 lower receivers at?
The Guns and Ammo Thread
- Thread starter Kalessin
- Start date
where does one acquire one of these $80 lower receivers at?
the_cpl
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Google: palmettostatearmory
the_cpl
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Or try aimsurplus. There the lowers are 85, not 79, but their shipping cost is low. 
WillisPDunlevey
Mildly Dipped
My new Fallout style gun:
.45 ACP SKS.
It is now blowback (not gas operated)
Uses 30rd Grease Gun Mags
Has new front and rear sights (usually sports a red dot)
Dont worry, no good SKSs were harmed making this rifle.
.45 ACP SKS.
It is now blowback (not gas operated)
Uses 30rd Grease Gun Mags
Has new front and rear sights (usually sports a red dot)
Dont worry, no good SKSs were harmed making this rifle.
DevilTakeMe said:
Please note, you said M4 would be released from the military and "flood" the market.
I stated that was untrue, which is correct.
I referenced the govt destroying functioning class 3 M14's which is correct.
They were not released to the public as functioning weapons class 3 or otherwise as I correctly stated.
Cobbling together a semi-auto from demilled parts is in no way shape form or fashion the same thing.
Intellectual dishonesty is almost as sad as actual ignorance.
DevilTakeMe
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
I'm glad you can admit your faults.
I've yet to see any actual evidence on your part except "I'm right, you're wrong."
You're being completely dishonest and ignorant, when the evidence is being put right in front of you. As you say, "Which is correct."
Here are FACTS:
I also corrected you about how M14s and other military weapons are properly "destroyed" by demilling, which is not a total destruction of the material, but a legal definition set forth by the BATFE. The parts retain their original stamp numbers and other identification demonstrating that they are or were government property and military grade weapons.
For your own education, since you don't seem to know, the BATFE defines ownership of a machine gun as being 2/3rds of the lower receiver of a weapon designed to be a machine gun, which is why they are "destroyed" by cutting the receivers into 1/3rds. If you want to be even more pedantic, they sometimes separate the middle section into a different bin when they go up for auction.
Any rebuilt M14s that were confiscated post-ban were done so because they were not properly demilled according to ATF regulations. In the aforementioned case of MK Systems, they improperly rebuilt M14 receivers from halves imported from Israel when they demilled their M14 surplus. As the recievers were not properly demilled after that as well as being imported after 1989 (that's two strikes against them right there), they fell right back into ATF's territory and hence why you don't see MK rebuilt weapons, but you do see weapons rebuilt by Hahn Machine Tool and Martin Pearl, both of whom had done the work properly.
I said that they could be semi-automatic. By law, rewelding these destroyed receivers back to a firing state is "manufacturing a new weapon," hence, why it can be done so long as it's rendered into a semi-automatic configuration.
And yet, it's still from what was a US military M4 - retired or removed from active service. Would function like an M4 except without the select-fire. If you want to try and say that they're not M4s anymore feel free. Call them an AR15 carbine or an M4gery with actual M4 parts.
You will never see a government M4, M16, etc... in CMP or any other type of civilian release. The US Government will do what it already does now: sell/lend/give them away to local LE and NG, sell or give them to foreign countries, or scrap them, most likely as slag.
The closest you will ever see to a USGI M4 on the market will be when LE agencies decide to raise funds by selling or trading the upper receivers. It happens already, and will continue in the future.
You will never ever ever ever see a US Government M4 lower receiver for legal sale to the civilian market, whether converted into semi auto configuration or not. To say anything otherwise shows a limited knowledge of government policy, the CMP process, GCA '68, NFA '34, or any of the pertinent EOs, or the intent to purposely mislead. Trying to back-door justify your position by rephrasing every website you can find on the Hahn/MKS reweld
controversy seems disingenuous at best.
I very much mean what I said above. You will never see the markets flooded with surplus lowers. Ever. A proper reweld of a legally demilled receiver is not the same as a surplus receiver. It also requires skill and time that make it economically prohibitive to do on a commercial scale. No USGI M4 receivers will ever come directly to the public, modified or no, in any form other than scrap metal.
Wiki-knowledge does not replace fact, regardless of how much conviction you express it with. Lets quit this foolishness and return to discussing guns, preferably those we actually own and/or use.
The closest you will ever see to a USGI M4 on the market will be when LE agencies decide to raise funds by selling or trading the upper receivers. It happens already, and will continue in the future.
You will never ever ever ever see a US Government M4 lower receiver for legal sale to the civilian market, whether converted into semi auto configuration or not. To say anything otherwise shows a limited knowledge of government policy, the CMP process, GCA '68, NFA '34, or any of the pertinent EOs, or the intent to purposely mislead. Trying to back-door justify your position by rephrasing every website you can find on the Hahn/MKS reweld
controversy seems disingenuous at best.
I very much mean what I said above. You will never see the markets flooded with surplus lowers. Ever. A proper reweld of a legally demilled receiver is not the same as a surplus receiver. It also requires skill and time that make it economically prohibitive to do on a commercial scale. No USGI M4 receivers will ever come directly to the public, modified or no, in any form other than scrap metal.
Wiki-knowledge does not replace fact, regardless of how much conviction you express it with. Lets quit this foolishness and return to discussing guns, preferably those we actually own and/or use.
DevilTakeMe
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
We've already discussed how legal M4s in fully automatic fire can be attained, see that part about putting an M4 upper on a registered M16 lower with a telescoping stock.
I'm not back-door justifying anything. Hahn and Pearl set a precedent for making rewelds from demilled M14s, because he had the proper permission and licenses to do so. Pearl retired and Hahn stopped presumably because the ATF simply asked him to stop, and unless you know differently, no one who bought a rewelded weapon from them has ever had theirs confiscated. Again, everyone who bought the improperly made MKS M14 had theirs confiscated.
Does that mean no one else can make guns from demilled parts? Nope. Again, restoration of demilled parts is not illegal but you still need to ask if the design is okay with the ATF. There's still a small group of machinists and gunsmiths who restore old demilled parts, but sell them as parts rather than a completed gun. Again, pointing up to the Hahn/Pearl/MKS example is a precedent, not a guarantee.
I never said fully assembled M4s would flood the market. I just said that M4s would flood the market - as scrap metal, parts kits, LE surplus, whatever. If it's just a parts kit where you can install your own 80 dollar civilian lower receiver, so be it.
Of course, under the ATF's own guidelines on the matter regarding parts kits that use cut up machine guns:
Once again, ask for permission first, since the ATF is the final word on what is, and what is not a machinegun in spite of the modifications.
All of you made the assumption that I said they'd come straight from the military in crates still capable of full-auto fire.
And again, that will be years, maybe even decades, from now. I still haven't seen a true replacement for the AR system yet, although I hear the LSAT has passed some level of testing.
I'm not back-door justifying anything. Hahn and Pearl set a precedent for making rewelds from demilled M14s, because he had the proper permission and licenses to do so. Pearl retired and Hahn stopped presumably because the ATF simply asked him to stop, and unless you know differently, no one who bought a rewelded weapon from them has ever had theirs confiscated. Again, everyone who bought the improperly made MKS M14 had theirs confiscated.
Does that mean no one else can make guns from demilled parts? Nope. Again, restoration of demilled parts is not illegal but you still need to ask if the design is okay with the ATF. There's still a small group of machinists and gunsmiths who restore old demilled parts, but sell them as parts rather than a completed gun. Again, pointing up to the Hahn/Pearl/MKS example is a precedent, not a guarantee.
I never said fully assembled M4s would flood the market. I just said that M4s would flood the market - as scrap metal, parts kits, LE surplus, whatever. If it's just a parts kit where you can install your own 80 dollar civilian lower receiver, so be it.
Of course, under the ATF's own guidelines on the matter regarding parts kits that use cut up machine guns:
Once again, ask for permission first, since the ATF is the final word on what is, and what is not a machinegun in spite of the modifications.
All of you made the assumption that I said they'd come straight from the military in crates still capable of full-auto fire.
And again, that will be years, maybe even decades, from now. I still haven't seen a true replacement for the AR system yet, although I hear the LSAT has passed some level of testing.
DevilTakeMe
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
WillisPDunlevey said:My new Fallout style gun:
.45 ACP SKS.
It is now blowback (not gas operated)
Uses 30rd Grease Gun Mags
Has new front and rear sights (usually sports a red dot)
Dont worry, no good SKSs were harmed making this rifle.
Call me jelly. It's a very clean and nice looking gun.
How's it shoot, by the way? I've been looking for a Marlin Camp Carbine in a .45ACP to complement my 1911 - they both use 1911 magazines (I like the idea of parity).
However, it too is blowback operated and it supposedly loses much of the advantage of having a longer barrel because of that.
DevilTakeMe
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
DammitBoy said:
Tell me this, if you two are so knowledgeable about how the government handles its business, where exactly do you think the destroyed guns go? As slag or scrap metal?
By your lack of actual answers, you don't know.
There were something like 1,400,000 M14s bought by the government, with half of them destroyed. How much metal do you think it is, and where do you think it went?
Does the military just dump it along with the trash? Do they bury it at sea?
No, they sell it at auction. Along with all of the other government waste, like all the unused parts they buy and then have to sell because they were never used. Or parts to be used elsewhere?
The contractor I worked for did this all the time. He bought up cheap parts from the government and turned around and undercut his competition (who bought theirs from the manufacturer) with room to spare.
The same goes for "scrap" - parts like the demilled receivers wind up in a bin and sold for cheap to someone who can turn it around for profit. Foundries and other scrap metal specialists for sure, but also anyone else who might actually use such parts.
DevilTakeMe said:
Here is your original post.
You'll note no mention of semi-auto rebuilt from demilled receivers.
This statement of yours is entirely false.
DevilTakeMe said:
It is illegal to buy a "burst fire" M4 as a civilian in the United States. There are no semi-auto M4's in military service. Your statement is completely untrue.
DevilTakeMe said:
It is illegal to turn a demilled machine gun manufactured after 1968 into a a functioning firearm in the United States. Since all M4's were manufactured after 1968, you cannot legally put them back together after they were demilled.
Again, you are clearly wrong.
WillisPDunlevey
Mildly Dipped
DevilTakeMe said:WillisPDunlevey said:My new Fallout style gun:
.45 ACP SKS.
It is now blowback (not gas operated)
Uses 30rd Grease Gun Mags
Has new front and rear sights (usually sports a red dot)
Dont worry, no good SKSs were harmed making this rifle.
Call me jelly. It's a very clean and nice looking gun.
How's it shoot, by the way? I've been looking for a Marlin Camp Carbine in a .45ACP to complement my 1911 - they both use 1911 magazines (I like the idea of parity).
However, it too is blowback operated and it supposedly loses much of the advantage of having a longer barrel because of that.
Its pretty accurate. I have not had it run past a chrono, but i do know that the bullets are not just falling out the end of the barrel
This was more of an exercise to se what could be done with a broken sks (barrel had been ruined by a bubba.
DevilTakeMe said:
You write two paragraphs of back-door justification gathered from your Wiki-sources, and then cap it off with crap as per above. So either you are a poor writer or you are intentionally misleading. Two paragraphs about how 'Yes, technically, you will never see a Government M4 lower receiver released to civilians" followed by the above.
How much experience do you have in these matters? Own a Garand through CMP? Your own AR?
How much NFA experience do you have? Do you own a registered receiver? A silencer? A Short Barreled Rifle? Who is your NFA examiner? Ever had an 07/SOT?
Quit repeating crap from the internet and your half-baked theories. Post pictures of guns you actually own and or use.
Back to the better purposes of this thread:
DevilTakeMe
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Civilians with a FFL class 7 and above can own them in full-auto configuration (though it's intended to be for "demonstration purposes") and a Class 2 SOT, as JohnnyEgo refers to. Like I said, not Average Joe Public.
It's illegal to turn an improperly demilled machine gun manufactured into a semi-automatic at any time, since the receiver is still not "destroyed" by legal definition. Since you're so keen on language, I think you'd understand the difference.
The ATF has a "Once A Machine Gun Always a Machine Gun" policy, but even then, there's legal precedent that this is untrue under law.
I'm not a lawyer, but I'd say that supports there is nothing in the NFA that prevents a modification of a machine gun from being converted into semi-automatic.
ATF just gets to hassle you if you don't have the money to fight the case.
the_cpl
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
DevilTakeMe said:
If it's made before 1986?
DevilTakeMe
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
the_cpl said:
If it's a machinegun made before 1986 and it's registered, you don't need the FFL, just a number of forms to the ATF and your local law enforcement, and a background check to make sure it's legally yours. Then State and local laws apply as well.
You do need the FFL class 7 plus either a class 2 or class 3 SOT if it's a "machinegun" made after 1986 or otherwise applicable by the NFA. With the license/stamp, you may own the gun, but you can't transfer/sell the gun to another civilian who does not own such a license.
FFL-7 licensees can own and operate fully automatic machineguns, some of them are Class 2 SOT licensed gunsmiths who make new full-auto weapons after 1986. They are still civilians.
the_cpl
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Sounds complicated. Actually I'm happy with my semi-auto AK-74, my semi-auto AR-15, my 1911 and my .357 Mag revolver. No classes, no ATF, nothing, just the usual NICS background check for the long guns and the purchase license+safety test+purchase permit combo for the hand guns.
It's even getting better, my state is planning to drop the pistol purchase permits too.
It's even getting better, my state is planning to drop the pistol purchase permits too.
A Type 7 FFL makes and sells non-NFA firearms and/or ammunition.
A Class 3 SOT is a manufacturer or dealer that sells NFA weapons.
A Class 2 SOT is specifically applied to a manufacturing FFL type (07 or 10) that manufactures NFA weapons.
In my past life, I sold guns as part of an 01/SOT (01 FFL - Dealer; 03 SOT - NFA Dealer). I had pre and post samples as demonstrators. My store supplied the Jacksonville Sheriff's office with their P90s, and later with the ARs they chose to replace them with.
A pre-Sample is a pre-86 dealer sample that can be transferred between NFA dealers without a demonstration letter. They can also be retained by the dealer when they surrender the SOT. They can only be transferred between dealers, not the general public. Post samples would be made after 86. They can only be transferred as samples with the required demonstration letter. They must be surrendered or transferred on surrender of the SOT.
Since Colt began producing M4's in the mid 90s, you will never ever ever see a civilian owned M4 in the NFA registry. You will never ever see a post-sample in a non-SOT's hands. Ever ever ever ever. There are a fair number of pre-86 factory M16 and AR15 receivers in the registry. There are no M4 receivers. There never ever will be.
If you feel I am incorrect, that is fine. You have stated your opinions as though you have expertise in this field. I have actual expertise in this field. I would like to know your bonafides, or I would like you to quit trying to present yourself as an expert.
My old shop with one of my surly coworkers behind our wall of personal guns and samples:
My wife with my registered receiver Uzi:
Two of my NFA guns, one with silencer:
A Class 3 SOT is a manufacturer or dealer that sells NFA weapons.
A Class 2 SOT is specifically applied to a manufacturing FFL type (07 or 10) that manufactures NFA weapons.
In my past life, I sold guns as part of an 01/SOT (01 FFL - Dealer; 03 SOT - NFA Dealer). I had pre and post samples as demonstrators. My store supplied the Jacksonville Sheriff's office with their P90s, and later with the ARs they chose to replace them with.
A pre-Sample is a pre-86 dealer sample that can be transferred between NFA dealers without a demonstration letter. They can also be retained by the dealer when they surrender the SOT. They can only be transferred between dealers, not the general public. Post samples would be made after 86. They can only be transferred as samples with the required demonstration letter. They must be surrendered or transferred on surrender of the SOT.
Since Colt began producing M4's in the mid 90s, you will never ever ever see a civilian owned M4 in the NFA registry. You will never ever see a post-sample in a non-SOT's hands. Ever ever ever ever. There are a fair number of pre-86 factory M16 and AR15 receivers in the registry. There are no M4 receivers. There never ever will be.
If you feel I am incorrect, that is fine. You have stated your opinions as though you have expertise in this field. I have actual expertise in this field. I would like to know your bonafides, or I would like you to quit trying to present yourself as an expert.
My old shop with one of my surly coworkers behind our wall of personal guns and samples:
My wife with my registered receiver Uzi:
Two of my NFA guns, one with silencer: