The Guns and Ammo Thread

[Vicious_Squid]

your run of the mill semi-auto AR15 clone (in this case Sabre Defense XR15) costs from 1700 to 3000 euros.
your standard issue semi-auto AK straight from Izhmash costs 500 to 750 euros.

i'd argue that you are dumb for not seeing what a nice package you're getting for that price.

Sorry, I'll save for an AR15. That's all there is to it. The AR is what I know so I'll stick with it.

So I'm dumb because I choose to spend more on a higher quality system? Wow, good one.

who was it again that were the first to demand the M14 be shipped to Iraq to replace some of the M4s because it lacked accurate range and power? oh, right, the american special forces.
who was it again that commissioned the SCAR? oh, right, SOCOM since the AR15 platform does not suit their needs.

Yeah, the SCAR is pretty much the same idea as a gas-piston AR only in a totally different platform (that oddly enough looks like an M4). I assume when the contract for Colt runs out in 2008 they will either continue it's service or issue something that looks like an M4/M16. I think the SCAR looks pretty nifty but actually looks less comfortable to me than an M4/M16 platform.

Sorry, but the M14s wouldn't really *replace* the M4s. M14 is used widely not just by SF. The M14s there were mostly used as DMRs (Designated Marksman Rifles), not the same role as the M4/M4A1.

M4s and M16s don't lack range for what they are. At 500m the 5.56-.223 still has the energy of a .45 ACP right out of the muzzle. Pretty accurate too. I read on a military board by a Navy SEAL that the Mk12 Mod 0 rifles are impressive with the proper ammo, he said at first they couldn't zero them with standard 62gr M855 but then switched to the heavier 77gr and they shoot quarter sized groups at 100m, easily engage out to 700m given the nut behind the trigger can do so. Same goes for the Army's SDMR (20" accurized M16) or any similiar rifle.

You don't need a lot of barrel for the 5.56-.223 to be accurate out of an AR. The only purpose I could see for having a barrel longer than 20" would be for varmint hunting and competition.

probably, but i'm guessing those are only used for close protection (bodyguard duty) and room clearing.

True, but they can still reach out if they need to.

so lets sum it up: everything not american and expensive isn't worth your attention. wow, i'm impressed with how well you argument your point of view.

No. It's just that American used firearms generally kick lots of ass.

you do realise that the Garand, while mechanically well designed and solid, had huge glaring flaws? the whole magazine/clip thing was a nightmare that led to huge wastes of ammo... the gun was also on the expensive side.

Haha, that whole magazine thingy made it superior to the German's bolt-actions which filled the same role as the Garand. You know, "greatest battle implement ever devised" or whatever. The only bad thing about the Garand was the loud "ping" noise it makes when it runs out.

 

[SuAside]

Gents, I would hate to have to lock the thread if this conversation gets impolite.

nothin' wrong with a little (over)heated debate Welsh. these are guns we're talking about after all. if there was no strife in this world, 75% of these things wouldn't even exist.

Sorry, I'll save for an AR15. That's all there is to it. The AR is what I know so I'll stick with it.

So I'm dumb because I choose to spend more on a higher quality system? Wow, good one.

no, you dumbass

you're dumb because you fail to acknowledge that the AK platform is a cheap and worthwhile gun and that it has its merits. you just diss it because 'yours is superior'. somehow, that doesn't impress us.

Yeah, the SCAR is pretty much the same idea as a gas-piston AR only in a totally different platform (that oddly enough looks like an M4).

except FN-H has been using that action (or a variant of it) for over 50 years?

and if you think the SCAR looks like an M4, you need to get your eyes examined.

I assume when the contract for Colt runs out in 2008 they will either continue it's service or issue something that looks like an M4/M16.

the SCAR isn't meant to replace the AR15 platform for all the troops. only SOCOM.

the XM8 was meant to replace the AR15 for the normal grunts, but failed for obvious reasons.

I think the SCAR looks pretty nifty but actually looks less comfortable to me than an M4/M16 platform.

well, looks can be deceiving. besides, comfort is personal. Sigarms put that blasted M4 telescopic buttstock thing on their newest batch to please the american market and thereby alienated about half the european market. the old stock was much more comfortable (but folding instead of retractable).

but one thing is certain: recoil will be lighter (see the FNC for reference)

Sorry, but the M14s wouldn't really *replace* the M4s. M14 is used widely not just by SF. The M14s there were mostly used as DMRs (Designated Marksman Rifles), not the same role as the M4/M4A1.

i never said it would replace M4s. i said it was brought back to fill in the shortcomings of the M4 platform in desert warfare.

You don't need a lot of barrel for the 5.56-.223 to be accurate out of an AR. The only purpose I could see for having a barrel longer than 20" would be for varmint hunting and competition.

yeah, but you're advocating 10.5" and 14.5", that's far from being the same as 16" and 20"...

No. It's just that American used firearms generally kick lots of ass.

maybe due to ill education then? ever shot an FNC or a Sig?

or do we have to tacticool the rifles before you like them as well?

Haha, that whole magazine thingy made it superior to the German's bolt-actions which filled the same role as the Garand. You know, "greatest battle implement ever devised" or whatever. The only bad thing about the Garand was the loud "ping" noise it makes when it runs out.

USA, FUCK YEAH!

euhm... what? step away from the propaganda if you please...

if it was so freaking superior, why was it pretty much shitcanned after 25 years? (which is for reference a very short lifetime for a military rifle)

no, what i was refering to is that you pretty much have to empty your clip to be able to reload. extracting a partially fired clip was nearly impossible and inserting a half filled clip was just impossible. leading to soldiers to plink away their ammo, just to be able to insert a fresh clip. nice waste...

 

[iii]

Well it seems that the whole SCAR thingy is facing some major criticism from the ones who test it...

http://socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?t=64231

Anyway I am also curious why the FAMAS is so well... unknown/ unpopular.

Anyway the Sig550 seems to enjoys great popularity not only in switzerland. There are mostly quite good reports from this rifle.

 

[SuAside]

Well it seems that the whole SCAR thingy is facing some major criticism from the ones who test it...

http://socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?t=64231

if by "major criticism" you mean a single thread by obviously biased people who pretend to know a lot simply going by heardsay and name dropping, then yes.

only one guy in the entire thread says he has actually shot it & isn't impressed. his main gripe with the gun is ergonomics and the possibility of knocking the bolt out of battery when entiring a building. ergonomics, bad on an FN rifle? yeah, maybe his european allergy is acting up. as for knocking the bolt out of battery when entering a building: wtf? no, the charging handle isn't on top like the AR15. wonderful. but almost no other rifle has that tbh & the SCAR's bolt handle doesn't stick out more than any other rifle... and then he adds the fact that the bolt if left & ejection is right, so he cant shoot left down or right down. let me first say wtf? that's bs. on top of that, if he actually handled the rifle, he'd know you can switch ejection side as well as the bolt handle with a 1 minute disassemble & reassemble.

as stated by someone in the thread: these people use hearsay to make their assumptions (with the exception of 1 guy), while all people who have been to actual trials and testfired the rifles have nothing but praise for the SCAR. who would you rather believe?

Anyway I am also curious why the FAMAS is so well... unknown/ unpopular.

it's french, for some reason that doesn't sit well with loads of people. stupid reason anyway.

but in all fairness, i dont like it much either. if i'm going bullpup, i'm much more inclined to the FN F2000 or Steyr AUG.

Anyway the Sig550 seems to enjoys great popularity not only in switzerland. There are mostly quite good reports from this rifle.

yeah, but if my info is correct, it seems the quality control from Sigarms (USA), as opposed to Sig (Sauer) (in Europe) is abismal at best. and the move to put an AR15 telescopic stock on their newest rifle to tacticool it didn't actually go by too well with the europeans.

 

[DammitBoy]

Dammitboy, I think one of the articles posted above compares the Winchester with the Marlin, with the Marlin coming up stronger- I think for reliability.

I've had my Winchester 94 for about ten years now and I've run around 3500 rounds through it over the years both hunting and at the range. It's never had a misfire or misfeed or any problem of any kind in that timeframe.

I also have a Marlin 30/30 and while it's a good gun, it just doesn't have the cool factor of the John Wayne loop on the winchester's lever or the pistol cartridge compatability with my Ruger Blackhawk.

Not a huge difference between the two cartridges imho either.

---

As for Garand's - I would say they are far superior to the average run of the mill AR15. I prefer my M1A1 Garand with it's detachable magazine and the .308 cartridge as opposed to the clip fed 30-06 Garand.

While the Garand is heavy as all fuck - my unmodified korean issue M1A1 can keep up with my heavily modified HBAR-15 all day long.

As a matter of fact, the HBAR's barrel will heat up and start acting funky alot sooner than the Garand. The Garand is just a fucking old warhorse of a weapon.

Alsoplustoo - the Garand is far more sturdy than either the AR-15 or the AK...

 

[Pajari]

Cleaned up my unissued SKS a few days ago..

 

[Vicious_Squid]

Dammitboy... How much crack did you smoke before you posted your bit on the M1 Garand?

no, you dumbass

you're dumb because you fail to acknowledge that the AK platform is a cheap and worthwhile gun and that it has its merits. you just diss it because 'yours is superior'. somehow, that doesn't impress us.

No, I would simply rather have an AR-15. That's it, that's all there is to it. Quality over quantity.

 

[strategery]

Hi, new poster to the forums. Thought I'd share my own collection of pieces Some of the pics are relatively large, so I've linked them.

But I've got:

My pride and joy, the H&K SL8-1 I've rigged it with dual optics. It's got a hi-lux red-dot at a 40 degree offset to the right, and a smith and wesson 3-9x rifle scope

My latest addition. It's an AR-15 A3 carbine with DPMS upper, stainless steel barrel, and LAR Manufacturing lower. As well as an EoTech 552 mounted on top.

Daewoo DR-300 7.62x39

Bushmaster AR-15 DCM spec match rifle

Ruger mini-14, Thompson .45ACP, Ithaca model 37

Colt M1991 1911a1 reproduction

Shitty photo I know, but that's my full frame H&K USP .45acp

There's also others I don't have pictures of. Including an FN FNP .40S&W, Springfield Armory XD .45acp, and a Benelli M3 Super 90.

I'm looking to add a Robinson Arms XCR and an FN PS90 to the collection eventually. But right now things are a bit tight .

 

[Smoke_Jaguar]

Hi, new poster to the forums. Thought I'd share my own collection of pieces Some of the pics are relatively large, so I've linked them.

You sir, outgun your average space marine dreadnought.

Does your SL8 fire silenced ammo? And if so, can you buy them on the open market?

I'm looking to add a Robinson Arms XCR and an FN PS90 to the collection eventually. But right now things are a bit tight .

No shit, huh?

 

[strategery]

Hi, new poster to the forums. Thought I'd share my own collection of pieces Some of the pics are relatively large, so I've linked them.

You sir, outgun your average space marine dreadnought.

Does your SL8 fire silenced ammo? And if so, can you buy them on the open market?

No that'd be the SL9. SL8-1 is just a straight .223rem. I can find silenced ammunition though .

I'm looking to add a Robinson Arms XCR and an FN PS90 to the collection eventually. But right now things are a bit tight .

No shit, huh?

Heh, it's not tight for the reason you're probably thinking though .

 

[DammitBoy]

Dammitboy... How much crack did you smoke before you posted your bit on the M1 Garand?

You don't like the M1A1?

What bothers you about what I posted sweetheart?

 

[SuAside]

an FN FNP .40S&W

what's your take on thatone?

I'm looking to add a Robinson Arms XCR and an FN PS90 to the collection eventually.

i don't really see the point of the longbarreled semi-auto PS90.

if you already had a FN FiveseveN then yeah, maybe. but standalone? odd.

what's your attraction to it?

 

[welsh]

Do they actually sell the FN FiveseveN to civilians? I had thought that was exclusively a military/police gun and that the ammunition was hard to get. Something about a gun designed to shoot through body armor being sold to the public seems disturbing to me. At least it's high price makes it a difficult piece to drop.

 

[SuAside]

Do they actually sell the FN FiveseveN to civilians? I had thought that was exclusively a military/police gun and that the ammunition was hard to get. Something about a gun designed to shoot through body armor being sold to the public seems disturbing to me. At least it's high price makes it a difficult piece to drop.

ugh, it's people like you who go "zomg copkiller gun!" that ruin the trade!

the FiveseveN is available to civilians with civilian ammo. the civilian ammo is slower, doesn't penetrate armor much and fragments. whereas the military/LE ammo is faster, penetrates, tumbles and doesn't fragment at all.

the irony of it all is of course that while FN cannot legally sell armor piercing ammo, it is quite easy to reload the available munitions with all kind of goodies. still, i doubt any criminal would bother, as there are plenty of less annoying alternatives around.

it's ironic how americans can buy 5.56mm semi automatic "pistols" with 30 round magazines. but you can't buy an armor piercing ammo for your FN57 from FN itself (you can however produce them yourself).

and while we're on it: Black Talons and Teflon coated bullet aren't copkiller bullets, welsh.

 

[strategery]

an FN FNP .40S&W

what's your take on thatone?

I love the thing. It's the perfect size for a concealed carry weapon, and packs quite a punch. When I bought this I actually went out looking for a Beretta Px, but when I finally found one and compared it to the FNP I just came away less than impressed. Personally I find the FN just has a better feel to it.

That and it came with Trijicon night sights

I'm looking to add a Robinson Arms XCR and an FN PS90 to the collection eventually.

i don't really see the point of the longbarreled semi-auto PS90.

if you already had a FN FiveseveN then yeah, maybe. but standalone? odd.

what's your attraction to it?

I've been thinking of trying to use it as a three-gun competition weapon. Slightly more compact than my AR, and carries more rounds. My only issue with it is it's effective range, which I have a feeling may be a bit short for my competition needs.

Otherwise I really just want one to have one. They're fun little weapons that feel great to shoot. They've got a very unique feel to them, and are just obscenely comfortable to use.

 

[Vicious_Squid]

strategery:
Nice USP!

Which one of these should I get:

Kimber TLE-RL2

or

Springfield Loaded MC Operator

 

[strategery]

strategery:
Nice USP!

Which one of these should I get:

Kimber TLE-RL2

or

Springfield Loaded MC Operator

I've seen some extremely nice springfield 1911s, but they all required extensive gunsmithing to get them to a point that I would consider them superior over a direct from the factory Kimber.

In all seriousness you just cannot beat Kimber when it comes to 1911s. I say go with the TLE-RL2.

 

[SuAside]

i'd say Kimber Custom II TLE for the tactical/practical angle, Springfield Mil-Spec (not GI) for the no-nonsense authentic feel. 2 of my favorite 1911's.
quality is pretty much equal between those two, so that's not really a factor.

 

[Smoke_Jaguar]

As we all know, you are just as good off with two 9mil berrettas for a nice good ol' killing spree.

Just joking, go with Springfield, you can't beat the feel. If you love it as much as you love the AR, there is no need for techical specs to appreciate a handgun. That's what I feel about the Five-seveN, it's unique on the market, and you can always rely on FN to make "ahead of its time" weaponry.

 

[DammitBoy]

Do they actually sell the FN FiveseveN to civilians?

At least it's high price makes it a difficult piece to drop.

Here in America, the land of the free and the home of the brave - we can buy whatever we want.

Alsoplustoo, the full jacket ammo is available here aftermarket-wise.

How is $750-825 U.S. dollars 'high' priced?