The Guns and Ammo Thread

[[PCE]el_Prez]

The biggest thing to consider when it comes to a question like that is "am I going to be able to find ammo?" So, that in mind something in .308 Winchester, .223 Remington, 9mm Luger, .357 magnum/.38 special and 12 gauge would be high on my list. The 12 gauge probably being highest since those would be easiest to reload in absence of proper equipment.

Beyond that weapon choice is really just that. Some people hate the AR series, some love 'em. Same with the Ak's. Personally, I'd probably go for a bolt action rifle or pump action shotgun since I'm a firm believer in the ethos of when there's less to go wrong, less does. This also puts the single shot in a favorable light IMO. Besides, a higher rate of fire would just make me waste ammo that I really don't need to. The PA would most likely be like in 'The Road' (do yourself a favor and read it) consisting mainly of keeping a low profile and fighting only when other options are exhausted.

All in all, in a predicament like that, I'd be happy to have just about any firearm to protect myself. So, if I didn't have anything I'd find some gas pipe and improvise something.

You'd knowingly take a pump shotgun over a semi-auto? I wouldn't take a shotgun at all - poor range.

The 2 guns i would take into the wastes would be an AK-47 (wood stock of course) and a 1911A1.

 

[SuAside]

Personally, I'd probably go for a bolt action rifle or pump action shotgun since I'm a firm believer in the ethos of when there's less to go wrong, less does. This also puts the single shot in a favorable light IMO. Besides, a higher rate of fire would just make me waste ammo that I really don't need to.

aren't you overestimating your skill? sure, single shot works well at the range, but in real life, you're at a great disadvantage if you can't make fast followup shots. bolt action is fine at considerable range, but when you get within 100 meters, semi-auto is a definate pro.

(not to mention in an urban area, most firefights will be within 30 meters)

el_Prez]You'd knowingly take a pump shotgun over a semi-auto?

i'd take a saiga 12 or molot vepr 12 over any pump action shotty... hell, it's a freaking redesigned AK that shoots 12 gauge. if proper ammo is used and you use the proper gas setting, it simply doesn't malfunction.

besides, it's got magazines instead of a tubefeed.

el_Prez]I wouldn't take a shotgun at all - poor range.

if you absolutely positively need to kill every motherfucker in the room, a S12 or M-V12 shotty is your gun.

 

[Vicious_Squid]

*In my opinion*, the M4/M16 is the best battle rifle ever. There are a few problems with it however. It shits where it eats and it is more sensitive to the elements compared to other battle rifles like the FAL. In which case, all you have to do is CLEAN IT. Is it that hard to keep your weapon in sound condition?

The M4/M16 is the best battle rifle ever.

Edit: And it is one damn sexy rifle.

Yes, I understand the US Government buys the cheapest product that delivers all of the specs, but in reality, the M16/M4 is a good weapon. For general use, better than the FAL, better than the M14, better than the AK. By the way, this is my opinion. You can't tell me flat out, that I am wrong and not explain why or even go into detail whatsoever.

Argue with the IDF too, you know, the best fighting force in the world. That should get you somewhere.

If you can't tell, I'm a big fan of the AR and hate the AK. In fact, I get very tired of this comparison because it's not really that fair... it's obvious the AR wins in overall functionality. They are two very different weapons systems.

Hehehehehe - hey squidward, those pics will come in real handy after the shooting spree...

Yeah, only an asshat like you would say that. Apparently I look very deranged and psychotic in those pictures, mainly just because I have firearms. God damn what's the big deal, I took photos of myself. Who cares?


Edit: Check this out:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RXgcQNsUKO0

"Negative, he cleaned 'em all out."

 

[SuAside]

sigh...

*In my opinion*, the M4/M16 is the best battle rifle ever. There are a few problems with it however. It shits where it eats and it is more sensitive to the elements compared to other battle rifles like the FAL. In which case, all you have to do is CLEAN IT. Is it that hard to keep your weapon in sound condition?

The M4/M16 is the best battle rifle ever.

Edit: And it is one damn sexy rifle.

no, in your opinion it's the best range rifle. yes it's accurate, yes it's light, yes it has full auto with relative controlability. that makes it indeed a very nice range rifle.

but dirt is the ultimate enemy of a battle rifle and the AR15 platform isn't exactly too keen on that. (and hell yes, battle rifles do get fucking dirty in the field... ever wondered why SOCOM wants a new rifle that isn't a derivative of the AR15 platform?)

Yes, I understand the US Government buys the cheapest product that delivers all of the specs, but in reality, the M16/M4 is a good weapon. For general use, better than the FAL, better than the M14, better than the AK. By the way, this is my opinion. You can't tell me flat out, that I am wrong and not explain why or even go into detail whatsoever.

ugh, each time you compare a rifle firing intermediate cartridges with one that shoots full power rounds, you show that you really don't grasp the whole situation too well.

Argue with the IDF too, you know, the best fighting force in the world. That should get you somewhere.

you want to know why the IDF uses the AR15 platform? because it was cheaper. end of story. the USA dumped surplus on them at dirt cheap prices.

do some research before claiming the IDF would argue the AR15 platform to be the best assaultrifle in the world.

and once again you claim for another thing it is 'the best in the world'. this time the IDF as the best fighting force in the world. yet again another unfounded claim.

If you can't tell, I'm a big fan of the AR and hate the AK. In fact, I get very tired of this comparison because it's not really that fair... it's obvious the AR wins in overall functionality. They are two very different weapons systems.

wow... first you say the AR clearly wins and then you admit they are very different weapon systems. i'm impressed, kiddo...

they can hardly be compared since they both have totally different goals ffs.

Edit: Check this out:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RXgcQNsUKO0
"Negative, he cleaned 'em all out."

and this is relevant how? except in showing you have a hard-on for mercs and twinked AR15s?

 

[welsh]

Here's an article on the discussion of survival guns-

Interesting that they like. 22 rifles.

Survival Guns
By Rich Johnson

Nothing adds security in the backcountry like a firearm.

April 2007

When I think about survival guns for outdoorsmen, I think of three scenarios—the first involves using the firearm as an audible signaling device. The second involves providing meat to stay alive. And the third involves self-defense. Taking things in that order (which may or may not be the order of importance in any given survival situation), we’ve tried to define what makes a good survival gun.


Signaling for Help
When an audible signal is what you need, louder is better. The sharp report of a big-bore rifle or large-caliber handgun will carry farther than the puny pifth of a .22-caliber. Shots fired in groups of three are recommended because the three-shot pattern is a universally recognized distress signal. While it might be tempting to fire into the air, safety must be considered, even in the wild. The audible signal will be just as loud if you fire into a tree trunk or a hillside, and you won’t have to worry about where those rounds will fall back to earth.

Another concern with signaling is not to “waste” ammo by firing signal shots unless you are pretty certain someone is within hearing distance. It might be prudent to save the ammo for other uses. This is a judgment call you’ll have to make using the best information you have at the time.

Gathering Food
You can’t always count on a survival situation happening in big-game country. If you find yourself stranded at a time or in a place where there’s nothing bigger than squirrels or small birds to subsist on, a big-bore rifle will be less useful for gathering food than a shotgun or a small-bore survival rifle would be.

Conversely, if you’re going into bear country, you’ll want to carry the largest-caliber handgun, rifle or shotgun you can comfortably handle. That’s why it’s important to match your “survival gun” to the area and season whenever possible. While no single gun suits every purpose, revolvers do offer the option of loading the first two cylinders with birdshot to handle snakes or birds and the rest with magnum cast-bullet loads for big game. They’re also ideal for close- quarters combat should the need arise.

The trade-off, of course, is that at ranges beyond 15 yards, a shoulder-fired long gun (whether shotgun or rifle) will greatly improve accuracy. And in common handgun calibers like the .357 and .44 Magnum, rifles so chambered offer significantly less recoil than their handgun brethren, which, in light-framed versions, can kick like a mule. As you are no doubt beginning to see, choosing a survival gun is a series of trade-offs.

Self-Defense
These days, bad things can happen anywhere—even in the backcountry. It’s becoming more common to stumble across illegal activity in the woods—meth labs and other drug farms, for example—which can put you in a tough situation. I’m not going to tell you what to do in that scenario, but it doesn’t hurt to figure it out in advance and then be prepared. For self-defense a lightweight revolver is ideal. Here again, you have the option of mixing and matching birdshot loads with hollowpoint defense rounds and cast-bullet loads for hunting larger game. Shotguns also offer you the option of chambering combinations of loads, as do many of the small-bore lever-action and semi-auto survival guns in 9mm, .357 and .44.

Then there’s the possibility of an encounter with an aggressive bear or mountain lion. If you’re facing the wrath of a large predator and it comes down to shooting the animal to save yourself, you want the biggest and most powerful firearm you can shoot accurately.

Particularly when considering handguns, it’s better to use a lesser caliber that you can control and shoot well than to carry a heavy magnum whose recoil makes you cringe every time you touch off a shot. Instead of a .44, perhaps you’ll find a .41 or .357 more controllable and comfortable. The best advice I can offer is to find a local gun store with an indoor range and try several styles and calibers before you decide to buy. After that, practice until you are totally confident shooting the arms you carry.

So what do these scenarios prove? In some cases a big-bore rifle is preferable because it lets you take larger game at greater distances. At other times, however, a shotgun or small-caliber firearm is preferable (the smaller the caliber, the more ammo you can carry). And if you’re packing light for a fishing trip, a revolver is a better fit. So what is the ideal survival gun? All of the above.

The trouble is that you can’t carry all of the above into a survival situation. In fact, any equipment you’re hauling should be as lightweight and compact as possible, because every pound you have to carry drains your energy. At the same time, the equipment must be able to do the job. No firearm is perfect for every instance, but there are some choices that are tailor-made for specific situations hunters and fishermen might face.

Stowable Survival Guns
Stowable guns are ideal to slip behind the seat of your pickup, in the back of your bush plane or in the bottom of your canoe, where size and weight are not too much of a concern. This is where traditional survival guns shine—those models that disassemble and stow in small carrying cases that can be broken out for use should you find yourself stuck in the backcountry. Great choices include:

* The Henry U.S. Survival. This takedown .22 weighs just 2½ pounds. It breaks down and all parts fit in the hollow stock.
* Springfield Armory M-6 Scout. This fold-down model is also very compact and offers both .22 and .410 barrels.
* KEL-TEC SU-16 Rifle. This gas-operated, self-loading rifle in .223 Rem. also features a fold-down stock for easy storage. The stock holds spare magazines and the forend folds down to form a bipod for increased accuracy.
* Marlin 70PSS Papoose. This stainless, seven-shot, semi-auto .22 offers a takedown barrel and synthetic stock. It comes in a padded carrying case.
* New England Firearms’ Versa-Pack. This rifle has interchangeable barrels that easily swap over from .22 rimfire to .410 shotgun.
* Savage 24F Predator. This over/under combination gun is available with a .22 Hornet, .223, .17 HMR or .30/30 over a 12-gauge barrel or .22 LR, .22 Hornet, .223 or .17 HMR over a 20-gauge barrel. The takedown action makes storage easy.
* Winchester M-9422 and Marlin M-1894PG. Lightweight lever guns like these offer lots of magazine capacity and the versatility of using either birdshot loads or standard bullets.
* Thompson/Center’s G2 Contender. This single-shot is known for accuracy. It comes in a number of different caliber options, is easily scoped and stows effortlessly.

Backpacking and Backup
When you’re carrying the whole load on your shoulders, weight and size are definitely factors. Backpacking trips are the time when carrying a revolver (with a traditional hammer spur so you can cock and shoot single-action for better accuracy) is ideal. Load the first two chambers with snakeshot, just in case you come across a grouse (or something or somebody that needs a serious bit of discouragement), and load the rest with hollowpoints for self-defense.

One of the new models with a titanium cylinder and alloy frame to save weight (with adjustable hunting sights) is just about perfect. Shorter barrel lengths will save weight and keep your choice compact, concealable and easy to wield.

* Smith & Wesson AirLite SC Revolver. Smith offers a whole family of AirLite revolvers in a number of calibers and configurations. Models like the M-386 Mountain Lite would also be an excellent choice for survival use.
* Taurus M617SS2C. The mini titanium revolver in .357 Magnum is a standout candidate for survival because it offers a seven-round cylinder instead of the traditional six-shot yet weighs less than 20 ounces.
* Glock 17. These polymer-framed semi-autos can stand up to practically any abuse from Mother Nature and still function. They also offer plenty of magazine capacity in a small, compact package.

Boats and Canoes

In a boat or canoe, weight is not a significant factor, so just about anything goes. Moisture is an issue, however, so lean toward stainless or marine-grade models and synthetic stocks. All of the handgun choices above will work, as will the following:

* Benelli Nova Pump H2O. This gun features nickel-plated parts and is capable of handling just about any shotgun ammo you can feed through it, from 3½-inch magnum shotshells to slugs.
* Winchester Model 1300 Coastal Marine. This stainless-steel pump is a rugged workhorse available in 12-gauge with seven-shot capacity and 3-inch chamber.
* Mossberg Model 500 Pump Action. Available in synthetic stock with a Marinecote finish, Mariner pumps are ideal for use on boats and are the choice of many saltwater skippers.
Fishing and Wading
In bear country one of the short-barreled, big-bore lever guns or one of the marine-grade pump shotguns mentioned previously is a good choice. Loaded with slugs or buckshot, these guns are easy to throw over a shoulder. Other choices include:

* Remington Model 870 Marine Magnum. This version of the 870 is similar to the classic Model 870 Wingmaster, except the metal parts are plated with electroless nickel. It has a black synthetic forend and stock.
* Marlin Model 1895GS Guide Gun. This stainless lever- action in .45/70 packs a lot of punch in a small package. Bigger still is the new .450 Marlin Model 1895MR.

Shotguns offer great reliability and security if you have to stop a bear while fishing. Browning’s BPS pump shotgun and Winchester’s Super X2 are solid choices. Despite your best efforts to be prepared, survival situations aren’t something you can plan on. Inevitably, circumstances will find you with whatever gun you happen to be carrying; then it’s up to you to know how to use it to your best advantage.

Quick edit-

I love this disclaimer on this one site
http://www.alpinesurvival.com/guns-to-grab.htm

Dear Alpine Survival Group:
My only intent is helping Christian families properly prepare as the Bible tells us to do. To prepare for bad times while in times of plenty. However, one should make no mistake that self-styled 'survivalist gurus' arming doom-and-gloom whacko groups need not apply!

Ah... you shouldn't exclude yourself from your own group.

Another preference for .22 found here-
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/survival.htm
also -
http://www.equipped.com/devices30.htm


www.survivalforum.com/downloads/firearmsfaq.pdf
has a discussion of marlins vs winchesters.

and if you didn't have enough to read-
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/scoutrifle.html
which actually makes a lot of interesting points.

Note that these articles also tend to emphasize that you will probably have hunt your food, so we're not talking about urban survival here.

 

[[PCE]el_Prez]

i'd take a saiga 12 or molot vepr 12 over any pump action shotty... hell, it's a freaking redesigned AK that shoots 12 gauge. if proper ammo is used and you use the proper gas setting, it simply doesn't malfunction.

besides, it's got magazines instead of a tubefeed.

I've ran about 10,000 rounds through my Browning Auto-5 and I've never had a malfunction. And that gun was passed down through from my grandfather to my father to me and as far as I know its flawless.

el_Prez]I wouldn't take a shotgun at all - poor range.

if you absolutely positively need to kill every motherfucker in the room, a S12 or M-V12 shotty is your gun.

Yeah but how many rooms are you gonna walk into? And how many bad guys are going to be in said room? A fully loaded AK-47 can take out enemies at 100 yards just as easily as taking out a room chuck full of Raiders (provided your not a slap dick and have some skill).

 

[Vicious_Squid]

no, in your opinion it's the best range rifle. yes it's accurate, yes it's light, yes it has full auto with relative controlability. that makes it indeed a very nice range rifle.

No, I said it's the best battle rifle. So being accurate, light, and having controlability, not to mention being very reliable if maintained properly, are not qualities to look for in a battlel rifle?

but dirt is the ultimate enemy of a battle rifle and the AR15 platform isn't exactly too keen on that. (and hell yes, battle rifles do get fucking dirty in the field... ever wondered why SOCOM wants a new rifle that isn't a derivative of the AR15 platform?)

So gas-piston operated AR15 derivatives don't count then?

I know I would rather have a weapon that has slightly less reliability, but is much more accurate.

ugh, each time you compare a rifle firing intermediate cartridges with one that shoots full power rounds, you show that you really don't grasp the whole situation too well.

The only reason why I compared it to those weapons is the fact that most people would consider the FAL and AK to be the most reliable battle rifle ever, that's why. And considering the other factors that make the M4/M16 a superior weapons system, its supposed reliability issues are greatly offset by them in my opinion.

5.56-.223 is not an intermediate round (concerning rifles), it is a light round. An intermediate round would be the 6.8 SPC.

you want to know why the IDF uses the AR15 platform? because it was cheaper. end of story. the USA dumped surplus on them at dirt cheap prices.

So, they could have saved a hell of a lot more by buying AKs, or some other piece of shit.

do some research before claiming the IDF would argue the AR15 platform to be the best assaultrifle in the world.

and once again you claim for another thing it is 'the best in the world'. this time the IDF as the best fighting force in the world. yet again another unfounded claim.

I said they are the best fighting force in the world because it is cliche, you should understand what I mean obviously. It does make sense however.

I did not claim that the IDF believes the AR15 platform to the best battle rifle in the world. I simply acknowledge that they use it to great success.

wow... first you say the AR clearly wins and then you admit they are very different weapon systems. i'm impressed, kiddo...

Yes, they are two very different weapon systems (they are probably the two firearms that are compared to eachother the most).

Yes, they are two very different weapon systems, one is a piece of shit and one isn't.

Yes, the M4/M16 does clearly win. How else should I state it for you? The M4/M16 is superior, this should be clearly obvious to anyone.

 

[DoughboyJones]

I'm not trying to paint myself as some manner of expert marksman. No, a single shot isn't going to be terribly high on my list, I was simply noting its merit of being simple and reliable. In a PA situation, replacement parts are going to be scarce at best and I've never had a problem with any of my bolt actions or single shots. I'm a little leary of semi-autos on the basis of more to go wrong. Sure, you can shoot a crowd to swiss cheese until the critical and impossibly hard to find little spring breaks leaving you with an awkward straight pull bolt action anyways. If I were to opt for a semi auto it would probably be an m-14 or a FAL .308 is common as surplus and has the power to reach out and touch something at a distance and still have the thwop to make 'em feel it.

 

[Vicious_Squid]

I'm not trying to paint myself as some manner of expert marksman. No, a single shot isn't going to be terribly high on my list, I was simply noting its merit of being simple and reliable. In a PA situation, replacement parts are going to be scarce at best and I've never had a problem with any of my bolt actions or single shots. I'm a little leary of semi-autos on the basis of more to go wrong. Sure, you can shoot a crowd to swiss cheese until the critical and impossibly hard to find little spring breaks leaving you with an awkward straight pull bolt action anyways. If I were to opt for a semi auto it would probably be an m-14 or a FAL .308 is common as surplus and has the power to reach out and touch something at a distance and still have the thwop to make 'em feel it.

Well, semi auto battle rifles are tougher than you think. I would have a back up anyway. I plan on getting another M4gery, probably an LMT or CMMG upper with 14.5" barrel and ACOG sitting on top. This looks good:

[/img]

 

[iii]

I know I would rather have a weapon that has slightly less reliability, but is much more accurate.

...

So, they could have saved a hell of a lot more by buying AKs, or some other piece of shit.

Where do you get your opinion from that the AK is so much less accurate?

As far as I have read most people who have operated both tend to say that the difference is marginal and mostly due to the ammuntion.

Get an AK 74 and you are fine... or get an AK 101 in NATO 5.56mm.

...

Those young folks shurely owe a lot of disrespect over this fine weapon.

-------

Oh and whats that all about whose accessories pics? do you think that no other weapons can be modified?

Russki Girlz and AKs...

Edit:

AKs are inherintly less accurate, there is more "barrel whip", ect. Common sense.

Sure... barrel whip especially on those those new AK107/108. Everyone who has fired an AK so far told me that its accuracy is absolutely underrated. For better Accuracy switch to newer models with the 5.45mm caliber.

AKs look very ugly.

Well thats one hell of an argument!

AKs have inferior iron sights.

Ok, you got me here. Still you can put a modern sight on it... so meh.

AKs have poor ergonamics (to me anyway).

To you anyday

AKs are for poor people who can't afford an AR, then they go online and tell everyone that the AK is superior to everything else because they play too much Counter Strike and smoke too much crack.

Ok I get your points. You have convinced me with your winning way and your convincing arguments.

-----


You probably still believe that the durability of the AK comes from its allegedly simple construction?

 

[Vicious_Squid]

AKs are inherintly less accurate, there is more "barrel whip", ect. Common sense.

AKs look very ugly.
AKs have inferior iron sights.
AKs have poor ergonamics (to me anyway).
AKs are for poor people who can't afford an AR, then they go online and tell everyone that the AK is superior to everything else because they play too much Counter Strike and smoke too much crack.

But, in the end, I still appreciate the Kalashnikov for what it is: a junker battle rifle to be used as a last resort in case all of my ARs go down, which is very, highly unlikely.

If I were to field a Kalashnikov in a modern day extreme SHTF scenario, I would get one with a short barrel and folding stock, used as sort of a vehicle dismounting personal defense weapon, engage out to 100m. Anything past that, I have time to grab one of my ARs. When in fact, I would rather have a 10.5" barreled AR over a Kalashnikov for this purpose.

Edit:

Sure... barrel whip especially on those those new AK107/108. Everyone who has fired an AK so far told me that its accuracy is absolutely underrated. For better Accuracy switch to newer models with the 5.45mm caliber.

On the new AK107/AK108 there would still be more barrel whip than with an AR. Just inherint in the design.

ARs are inherintly more accurate. This is a fact.

What if I don't want a Kalashnikov? What if I want to stick with my AR when I know getting a 5.45mm Kalashnikov would be pointless?

Well thats one hell of an argument!

It wasn't meant to be an argument. I think AKs are very ugly, that's all.

To you anyday

Nice response, WTF? AKs have poor ergonamics to me, especially compared to an AR. Everything just feels right.

Ok I get your points. You have convinced me with your winning way and your convincing arguments.

...and in this response, you did not accomplish anything.


Edit again:

Those young folks shurely owe a lot of disrespect over this fine weapon.

Actually many young people own AKs because that's all they can afford, or they think it's "gangsta". Either an AK or an SKS or a Mosin Nagant or whatever. Ew.

And it's not a fine weapon, it's a piece of shit generally speaking.

 

[[PCE]el_Prez]

Actually many young people own AKs because that's all they can afford, or they think it's "gangsta". Either an AK or an SKS or a Mosin Nagant or whatever. Ew.

Actually - many people across the world own AK's becuase they are great weapons. Sure they they cost less, but that doesn't take away from their awesomeness. If you think for a split second that they are not accurate, I garauntee i could smoke you from 100 yards without thinking twice. And if i happned to miss (which wouldn't happen) I'd have 29 more rounds to end your ignorant rant.

 

[DammitBoy]

Are we through with the pissing contest yet?

In a survival situation, I would depend first and foremost on two of my favorite guns.

My Winchester 94 in .45 long colt holds 10 rounds and is one of the most reliable guns on the planet. A simple design that has seen over 7 million produced since it's conception.

The companion gun for my rifle would be my Ruger Blackhawk also chambered in .45 long colt. Another simple design proven to be reliable for over 100 years.

The two guns using the same ammo would be a great idea imho eliminating carrying several different kinds of ammo and simplfying the cleaning process as well.

If I had the ability to include one more gun, the Springfield Armory M4 scout would be my next choice. Having a rifle that shoots both .22 and .410 shotgun shells would be a great gun for hunting small game. Plus, it folds in half and can be stored in a backpack.

If I figured out how to put gas in the car... I'd probably add a few more guns to my selection - including my paraordinance .45 and my M1A1 Garand in .308 - if I had other folks with me, I could probably fit out a whole frikken militia...

 

[SuAside]

Interesting that they like. 22 rifles.

for normal survival stuff, sure. (but not against wolves, bears or fellow humans)

plenty of ammo availabe, accurate enough to hit something, just powerful enough to kill something if aimed well, relatively low noise, low weight, etc.

still, i think they're weirdos for supporting pistol ammunition so much... as the old saying goes: "pistols are only used to fight your way to a rifle". the power an accuracy of pistol ammo is far inferior and if you have a choice, you're best off not to rely on it.

also, their backing of a single shot break top Contender as a survival gun is INSANE. miss your shot & you're dead. end of story.

el_Prez]I've ran about 10,000 rounds through my Browning Auto-5 and I've never had a malfunction. And that gun was passed down through from my grandfather to my father to me and as far as I know its flawless.

and? i never said there weren't reliable tube feeds?

besides, it's Browning + FN. what could go wrong? ^^

if you absolutely positively need to kill every motherfucker in the room, a S12 or M-V12 shotty is your gun.

Yeah but how many rooms are you gonna walk into? And how many bad guys are going to be in said room? A fully loaded AK-47 can take out enemies at 100 yards just as easily as taking out a room chuck full of Raiders (provided your not a slap dick and have some skill).[/quote]
we've had the whole rifle vs shotgun debate before, so don't start that again.
as for 100 yards, that's doable with a 12gauge dartshaped slug.

No, I said it's the best battle rifle. So being accurate, light, and having controlability, not to mention being very reliable if maintained properly, are not qualities to look for in a battlel rifle?

the first thing that suffers in the field is the condition of your firearm. you got dirt, you got mud and yeah, you'll get dirty.

i think that more than enough soldiers have already spoken out against the AR15 platform dude to that.

not to mention the power from a short M4 barrel is pretty bad...

So gas-piston operated AR15 derivatives don't count then?

newsflash for the HK 416 bandwagon: the same was already developed in the 60's. never adopted back then.

now HK brings it out with all bells and whistles & some wtfpwnage ex-SEAL does a report about it and all of the sudden, everyone loves it! hooyeah!

I know I would rather have a weapon that has slightly less reliability, but is much more accurate.

but you arent a soldier, are you?

besides, that statement is bullshit, since it wholely depends on what the weapon will be used for.

So, they could have saved a hell of a lot more by buying AKs, or some other piece of shit.

actually no. the colts offered were cheaper. (yeah, what a joke)

besides, who the fuck would Israel have bought AKs from back then? sjeezes, use your brain...

Yes, the M4/M16 does clearly win. How else should I state it for you? The M4/M16 is superior, this should be clearly obvious to anyone.

funny that each time someone says it's obvious for anyone to see, there are so many voices that claim the opposite...

*snip*

Well, semi auto battle rifles are tougher than you think.

don't talk down to the man, he has a point.

assaultrifles (regardless of their make) do wear out faster than boltactions (for obvious reasons) and are notoriously harder to fix.

Where do you get your opinion from that the AK is so much less accurate?

As far as I have read most people who have operated both tend to say that the difference is marginal and mostly due to the ammuntion.

nah, it is true. stock AK's shoot less precise than stock AR15's. especially in full auto, obviously.

but this is mostly due to design and it is not a flaw. an AR15 has much tighter tolerances, but much lower resilience.

AKs have poor ergonamics (to me anyway).

the biggest gripe of most westerners is the stock which is rather short. that's easy to fix though.
(and it was designed on purpose since ruskies tend to wear big coats, ye know)

AKs are for poor people who can't afford an AR, then they go online and tell everyone that the AK is superior to everything else because they play too much Counter Strike and smoke too much crack.

what the fuck? i know people with a collection of 30 AKs. dont you think he might as well have bought 10 AR15s if he wanted to? shit. you're such a fucking moron when you make comments like this. the exact same can be said about the AR15 being the toy of the rich CS kiddies, fucktard.

If I were to field a Kalashnikov in a modern day extreme SHTF scenario, I would get one with a short barrel and folding stock, used as sort of a vehicle dismounting personal defense weapon, engage out to 100m. Anything past that, I have time to grab one of my ARs. When in fact, I would rather have a 10.5" barreled AR over a Kalashnikov for this purpose.

you're getting fucking hilarous, you fucking armchair general.

did you just say you're going to grab a short barreled .223 rifle to shoot anything past 100 meters? haha, you're so fucking pathetic...

Actually many young people own AKs because that's all they can afford, or they think it's "gangsta". Either an AK or an SKS or a Mosin Nagant or whatever. Ew.

And it's not a fine weapon, it's a piece of shit generally speaking.

what the fuck is your problem, sparky? you just dissed 3 classic firearms in one fucking sentence?

you fucking snob piece of shit. how about your put your gun where your mouth/wallet is.

 

[UmbrellaMaster]

I own a couple of cheap .22 rifles, a 12 gauge, a .44 Ruger Rifle, and a .308 hunting rifle. Considering I don't have them in the house I'm living in at the moment I can't really give you offhand specs other than those.

 

[[PCE]el_Prez]

el_Prez]I've ran about 10,000 rounds through my Browning Auto-5 and I've never had a malfunction. And that gun was passed down through from my grandfather to my father to me and as far as I know its flawless.

and? i never said there weren't reliable tube feeds?

besides, it's Browning + FN. what could go wrong? ^^

So why would you take a pump when there are perfectly AWESOME semi auto shotguns.....

We may be getting off topic....

Are we through with the pissing contest yet?

Really? You had to of known that this thread is just a giant pissong contest....

 

[SuAside]

el_Prez]

and? i never said there weren't reliable tube feeds?
besides, it's Browning + FN. what could go wrong? ^^

So why would you take a pump when there are perfectly AWESOME semi auto shotguns.....
We may be getting off topic....

you kinda missed the point Prez, i was advocating the saiga 12 or molot vepr 12. those are MAGAZINE FED SEMI-AUTO shotguns based on the AK action. (magazines going from 2, 5, 8 and 10 shells and drums up to 20 shells)

 

[Vicious_Squid]

Actually - many people across the world own AK's becuase they are great weapons. Sure they they cost less, but that doesn't take away from their awesomeness. If you think for a split second that they are not accurate, I garauntee i could smoke you from 100 yards without thinking twice. And if i happned to miss (which wouldn't happen) I'd have 29 more rounds to end your ignorant rant.

Yes I understand that, I was just making a generalization about young people in the US. You know what I'm talking about.

Well I was doing sort of rapid fire with my AR out to 200y and getting head shots galore, I could tell for sure none of my shots were outside the silhouette, and two lines up and down the center mass area and a bunch in the head. In fact I would much rather be allied with you in a SHTF scenario. Let's put our differences aside and smoke people together.

SUACIDE:

i think that more than enough soldiers have already spoken out against the AR15 platform dude to that.

not to mention the power from a short M4 barrel is pretty bad...

My brother loves the AR, but he likes the M14/M1A better I think. But still he has said the AR is one of the best weapons system ever, he's like me and prefers the ergonamics and it's not hard to see why. It's very user friendly, I will take my trusty AR over a bullpup Euro trash piece of shit anyday. And by that, I mean the Enfield L85, numerous stories online about their shoddiness, lack of durable construction, ect. FAMAS looks too bulky, Galil is inferior. The only other 5.56-.223 current battle rifle I would take, probably not IN PLACE of my AR, would be either the AUG A3 or G36K. They are fine weapons. Oh yeah, and maybe the IMI Tavor, but I don't like the bullpups really.

Hmmmm.... all those SF guys in Iraq and Afghanistan sure don't complain too much, they don't fucking bitch and moan about needing to take care of their weapons.

The main problem with short barreled ARs isn't the power (energy is better word to use BTW, although you are obviously correct the shorter barrel loses velocity, bullet doesn't fragment as easy), the main problem would be reliability, although not as great as you probably think since you are AR ignant' as it is.

Short barreled ARs (LMT 10.5" I believe) are out there in the war right now being used by SF and Blackwater.

I am thinking of getting my first SBR within the next two years, probably an LMT, then get a suppressor for it. You can't beat that. I hear people get pretty damn good groups with their shorty LMTs.

what the fuck? i know people with a collection of 30 AKs. dont you think he might as well have bought 10 AR15s if he wanted to? shit. you're such a fucking moron when you make comments like this. the exact same can be said about the AR15 being the toy of the rich CS kiddies, fucktard.

Well, that means he likes AKs, no problem. But my point still stands. On average ARs cost twice as much, even more for the higher end, like my soon to be LMT 14.5" with permanent hider and enhanced bolt/bolt carrier, which is going to be as reliable as any fucktard AK out there. ARs are cool, AKs are dumb, get over it.

you're getting fucking hilarous, you fucking armchair general.

did you just say you're going to grab a short barreled .223 rifle to shoot anything past 100 meters? haha, you're so fucking pathetic...

No, I SAID I would rather have a short barreled AR for engagements before 100 meters, INSTEAD of a short barreled AK.

You hurt my feelings when you call me names like that.

what the fuck is your problem, sparky? you just dissed 3 classic firearms in one fucking sentence?

you fucking snob piece of shit. how about your put your gun where your mouth/wallet is.

Okay, ease up man.

Yes, I dissed 3 classic firearms, yes I know they are "classics" but they are all pieces of shit. In MY eyes, a classic is the M1 Garand. But I do acknowledge they are classics, but that doesn't mean they are worth my attention. M1 Garand pwns them all.

I am no snob. I am no rich man. I have to work extended periods of time for my toys. Quality over quantity, that is how I roll with my battle rifles. Don't fucking cry to me about classes, I am lower middle class you fucking idiot.

you kinda missed the point Prez, i was advocating the saiga 12 or molot vepr 12. those are MAGAZINE FED SEMI-AUTO shotguns based on the AK action. (magazines going from 2, 5, 8 and 10 shells and drums up to 20 shells)

Mmmmmmmm.... detachable magazine fed semiauto shotguns. I agree with you on that one. Although I would probably take a Benelli with an Eotech over either of those.

 

[SuAside]

Hmmmm.... all those SF guys in Iraq and Afghanistan sure don't complain too much, they don't fucking bitch and moan about needing to take care of their weapons.

who was it again that were the first to demand the M14 be shipped to Iraq to replace some of the M4s because it lacked accurate range and power? oh, right, the american special forces.
who was it again that commissioned the SCAR? oh, right, SOCOM since the AR15 platform does not suit their needs.

The main problem with short barreled ARs isn't the power (energy is better word to use BTW, although you are obviously correct the shorter barrel loses velocity, bullet doesn't fragment as easy), the main problem would be reliability, although not as great as you probably think since you are AR ignant' as it is.

yes, i know the shorter M4 not only suffers from the lower velocity of the bullet, but also from faster wear due to the shorter gas system (which ups ROF and decreases reliability) and on top of that overheating of the barrel and front grip are a definate concern.

as for the exact terms, sorry kiddo, english is only my third language. still, if you want to correct me, at least try to write my nick correctly.

Short barreled ARs (LMT 10.5" I believe) are out there in the war right now being used by SF and Blackwater.

probably, but i'm guessing those are only used for close protection (bodyguard duty) and room clearing.

Well, that means he likes AKs, no problem. But my point still stands. On average ARs cost twice as much, even more for the higher end, like my soon to be LMT 14.5" with permanent hider and enhanced bolt/bolt carrier, which is going to be as reliable as any fucktard AK out there. ARs are cool, AKs are dumb, get over it.

your run of the mill semi-auto AR15 clone (in this case Sabre Defense XR15) costs from 1700 to 3000 euros.
your standard issue semi-auto AK straight from Izhmash costs 500 to 750 euros.

i'd argue that you are dumb for not seeing what a nice package you're getting for that price.

Okay, ease up man.

Yes, I dissed 3 classic firearms, yes I know they are "classics" but they are all pieces of shit. In MY eyes, a classic is the M1 Garand. But I do acknowledge they are classics, but that doesn't mean they are worth my attention. M1 Garand pwns them all.

so lets sum it up: everything not american and expensive isn't worth your attention. wow, i'm impressed with how well you argument your point of view.

you do realise that the Garand, while mechanically well designed and solid, had huge glaring flaws? the whole magazine/clip thing was a nightmare that led to huge wastes of ammo... the gun was also on the expensive side.

Mmmmmmmm.... magazine fed semiauto shotguns. I agree with you on that one. Although I would probably take a Benelli with an Eotech over either of those.

i've seen what a S12 can take & i'm bloody impressed. i'm seriously considering an S12 with an EOtech.

 

[welsh]

Gents, I would hate to have to lock the thread if this conversation gets impolite.

Dammitboy, I think one of the articles posted above compares the Winchester with the Marlin, with the Marlin coming up stronger- I think for reliability.