The Legion is the best option for the wasteland

[Crni Vuk]

Well this time both sides have machine guns

The NCR has more. I thought Boulder City teached you Legion lovers already a lesson, you need another one ? Oh, what's that you wana cross the damn dam anothe time? I will be damned!

 

[superdude34]

@Antiwarprofallout ok so 10,000 to 20,000 troops all charging at once is not gonna overwhelm 10 or 20 machine guns, couple of trenches, maybe some arty guns. Get real. I'm done discussing this with you because of the sheer ridiculousness.
The Legion do have almost all of the territories enslaved and fighting for them. Remember most of the people in Legion territory were tribals, not civilized people, so they have all been enslaved, and we can safely say 76 large tribes equals over 200k people.
@Crni Vuk what evidence do you have to back up that claim?

 

[Chromevod]

When discussing Legion population and possible numbers in terms of fighters, one also has to divide the Legion's population roughly in half when coming up with total military numbers due to women being universally enslaved as laborers/reproductive slaves. NCR is perfectly happy to hand out rifles to their women soldiers, further widening the number gap. If it does come down to a war of attrition, then Legion would lose far before their actual army was fully destroyed, because they would most likely begin to face slave uprisings much like Rome did. The Legion will either lose due to being overrun by their own slaves, or they'll kill most of their slaves and thus lose a major portion of their infrastructure.

 

[Earth]

Poor Superdude. Crushed by his own water bottle.

 

[Riven326]

The Enclave? I assume you mean the Fallout 3 one because the Fallout 2 one was keen on exterminating any 'mutants' outside their own population which they considered the only 'true' humanity.
And the Fallout 3 ones are pretty much idiots, they did not even try to recruit other groups of pure humans like those of Vault 101 to their ranks, let alone be able to convince places like Rivet City that them joining the Enclave would be a good thing. (the Enclave would make a great ally and customer for food and clean water and they possess a lot of technology and knowledge)
All they did was hide in a bunker and set up those useless little outposts throughout the Capital Wasteland.

Plus their basic goal is to remake the US wasteland into the United States as it was before the war. You know, a country that had barely any democracy and freedoms any more, increasing poverty, and ruled over by a xenophobic ultra capitalist circle of elites.

If they would ever want to make something like the old US again they would have to reduce the population numbers anyway as there are not enough remaining resources to create this fantasy with even the reduced population of the North American continent in the Fallout present. There would be to many 'not have's' that would envy the 'haves'.

I'm not saying it would be perfect, but the Enclave's vision is still better than what currently exists.

 

[Antiwarprofallout]

The NCR had 700,000 folk fourty years prior to Fallout New Vegas. They'd have a birth rate similar to a booming industrial nation, so they'd have plenty more folk by the time NV takes place, and they also took other places across that period too.

 

[superdude34]

When discussing Legion population and possible numbers in terms of fighters, one also has to divide the Legion's population roughly in half when coming up with total military numbers due to women being universally enslaved as laborers/reproductive slaves.

I think the slaves reproduce so much that it compensates for any loss of manpower due to women not being allowed in the military. Also, women are also generally less effective in combat roles than men, so I don't think it matters that they are not allowed in combat roles.

If it does come down to a war of attrition, then Legion would lose far before their actual army was fully destroyed, because they would most likely begin to face slave uprisings much like Rome did. The Legion will either lose due to being overrun by their own slaves, or they'll kill most of their slaves and thus lose a major portion of their infrastructure.

Highly improbable. The slaves are treated rather nastily, and they are kept on the verge of working condition to ensure this does not happen. Also I'm pretty sure that a couple of slaves tried this and got crucified.

The NCR had 700,000 folk fourty years prior to Fallout New Vegas. They'd have a birth rate similar to a booming industrial nation, so they'd have plenty more folk by the time NV takes place, and they also took other places across that period too.

OK thanks for clarifying, didn't realize that was from 2241.
Its probably about a million then.
I don't think they would have a birth rate anything like a booming industrial nation: deaths at birth and infant mortality will be huge due to the fact its a irradiated nuclear wasteland.

I'm not saying it would be perfect, but the Enclave's vision is still better than what currently exists.

No it's not. It's like the devs went and watched the Alex Jones show for a couple of hours, picked out one of his random bullshit conspiracy theories and put it in game.

 

[Izak]

Highly improbable. The slaves are treated rather nastily, and they are kept on the verge of working condition to ensure this. Also I'm pretty sure that a couple of slaves tried this and got crucified.

It doesn't really matter how hard they work the slaves, resistance will develop as long as they're in shitty conditions, even the people in concentration camps were able to form a rudimentary resistance and those were (from what we see of Legion slavery) far more oppressive conditions then in the Legion.

Also, women are also generally less effective in combat roles than men, so I don't think it matters that they are not allowed in combat roles.

Guns kind of remove any need for physical strength from combat, so as long as the women soldiers get solid training they should be roughly as effective as male soldiers.

I don't think they would have a birth rate anything like a booming industrial nation: deaths at birth and infant mortality will be huge due to the fact it's a irradiated nuclear wasteland.

To my knowledge nukes don't really leave much residual radiation and most of the irradiated places we see in the West are nuclear waste disposal facilities, and humans probably won't settle there, so radiation shouldn't be that big a problem.

 

[superdude34]

It doesn't really matter how hard they work the slaves, resistance will develop as long as they're in shitty conditions, even the people in concentration camps were able to form a rudimentary resistance and those were (from what we see of Legion slavery) far more oppressive conditions then in the Legion.

I really doubt there gonna have a big slave uprising: there's too much of a fear factor of the legionaries.

Guns kind of remove any need for physical strength from combat, so as long as the women soldiers get solid training they should be roughly as effective as male soldiers.

Saying that guns remove any need for physical strength in combat is stupid.

To my knowledge nukes don't really leave much residual radiation and most of the irradiated places we see in the West are nuclear waste disposal facilities, and humans probably won't settle there, so radiation shouldn't be that big a problem.

I know, but there still will be a very big infant mortality due to humanity being bombed back into the medieval age.

 

[Izak]

I really doubt there gonna have a big slave uprising: there's too much of a fear factor of the legionaries.

There was a big fear factor with the SS as well, didn't stop resistance.

Saying that guns remove any need for physical strength in combat is stupid.

Indeed, strength is still needed, but to say that women don't have the required skills to shoot a gun is stupid as well, especially considering the possibilities of a female Vault Dweller/Chosen One/Courier and, the fact that Colonel Moore (among other less memorable characters) is one of the better soldiers in the NCR military.

I know, but there still will be a very big infant mortality due to humanity being bombed back into the medieval age.

The NCR isn't stuck in the medieval age, they're an industrialised nation with strong arms manufacturing, mining and, agricultural industries.

 

[Antiwarprofallout]

I used the birthrate from America in 1905 for the NCR's population from 2241. 1,540,000 folk, though it would be most likely higher due to newly annexed areas.

 

[superdude34]

There was a big fear factor with the SS as well, didn't stop resistance.

small scale resistance that didn't really achieve much.

Indeed, strength is still needed, but to say that women don't have the required skills to shoot a gun is stupid as well, especially considering the possibilities of a female Vault Dweller/Chosen One/Courier and, the fact that Colonel Moore (among other less memorable characters) is one of the better soldiers in the NCR military.

Never said they had not the required skills to shoot a gun.
Colonel Moore is an exception, it is factual that in a combat situation men are more effective than women. All the militaries across the world know this.

The NCR isn't stuck in the medieval age, they're an industrialised nation with strong arms manufacturing, mining and, agricultural industries.

My point is we mustn't talk about it like its a modern nation in our world. It does not have proper healthcare, and its not as if you can just drive down to the doctors to get yourself diagnosed and grab some anti biotics. I presume people in NCR die in the tens of thousands because of preventable illness
Also I doubt they have advanced maternity wards, there must be loads of deaths at birth and infant mortality.

1,540,000 folk, though it would be most likely higher due to newly annexed areas.

Yeah your not taking into account infant mortality, disease, poverty etc.

 

[Izak]

My point is we mustn't talk about it like its a modern nation in our world. It does not have proper healthcare, and its not as if you can just drive down to the doctors to get yourself diagnosed and grab some anti biotics. I presume people in NCR die in the tens of thousands because of preventable illness
Also I doubt they have advanced maternity wards, there must be loads of deaths at birth and infant mortality.

Why do you think this? It's not as though the bombs would destroy every hospital in the West and the Followers clearly have their shit together, medically speaking. You seem to be assuming too much, for all we know NCR is in a relatively modern situation, their proclivity for gambling points to that at the least (actually they're surprisingly similar to 20's America, I wonder if that was purposeful).

Never said they had not the required skills to shoot a gun.

I don't think it matters that they are not allowed in combat roles.

Which one is it? You can't decide that they're both able to fight and useless in a fight.

small scale resistance that didn't really achieve much.

Hm, yeah I suppose you're right, concentration camps were a shitty comparison anyway, not really all that comparable, though ancient Rome has a couple of example of large scale resistance (Spartacus, and the like) and a huge war would definitely be seen as an opportunity by any budding revolutionaries.

Yeah you're not taking into account infant mortality, disease, poverty etc.

The rate of death in America during the 20's was about one in 1000 per year, considering how close NCR is to the 20's technologically, culturally and economically speaking, I'd say it's somewhere around there (adding a couple of extra deaths due to hostile wildlife/factions).

 

[Crni Vuk]

@Antiwarprofallout (...) Get real. I'm done discussing this with you because of the sheer ridiculousness.

My point is we mustn't talk about it like its a modern nation in our world.

You have to start somewhere, and if anything, the NCR has proven that it can hold. I mean it exists for 70 years now in the Fallout world? No clue. But definetly far longer than the Legion, which still has to show, if it can stand what I would call the test of time. Is it really something that can flourish in the wasteland? Or is it just a temporary thing.
Interesting how this has moved trough from the question of what is the best for New Vegas to Legion vs NCR.

I still think, if we are STRICTLY(!) talking about New Vegas, House is the best choice in the long run. But I also doubt that the Legion would be actually a good choice for the rest of the wasteland as well. Yes, they are reasonably succesfull in their teritory. But that doesn't have to mean that it is a long term concept, or that it would work everywhere. I doubt they could get the BoS in their ranks like tribals, or that the NCR will simply merge with them. When ever they meat a force of any respectable size or power, it will always mean a fight for the Legion. And this is, what brings Empires to their knees. It certainly did so in history.

 

[CerberusGate]

Not gonna add to the current discussion since Superdude seems rather zealous about this and appears to be ignoring everyone else for his/her own narrative.

So I'm just gonna add what I could tell from playing New Vegas and state what I think may happen if the Legion won: (I'm basing all this on what I can recall right now)

The problem that the NCR appears to be facing around the time of New Vegas is over-expansionism due to President Kimball's aggressive policies. As a result, the supply lines are stretched out over a long stretch of land that seems to tax the NCR's military forces in New Vegas (and is not helped by having a glory-hound of a general in charge of their military). Caesar's Legion seems stable in their regions (according to Raul and Cass) but may run into the same problem if they stretch out too far (an argument the Courier can use against Legate Lanius) since the Legion will probably attempt to stretch beyond New Vegas should they beat the NCR at New Vegas. In that situation, the NCR may still be able to put up a decent defense against an over-taxed Legion and draw them out into a war of attrition. Within that time, Caesar (Edward Sallow) will die. From what I can tell, Sallow is the main decision-maker of the Legion's policies as he is probably the only one aware that the beliefs and ideologies of the Legion are based on his own knowledge of the ancient Romans. Without him, those beliefs/knowledge will be forgotten (or twisted) in time and eventually, the Legion will devolve back into the very tribals they had been before. The Legion breaks apart (likely since Lanius is an excessively violent leader, albeit an effective military leader) but damage is done to both sides in the conflict.

The Legion ends up not uniting the Wasteland but fracturing it while leaving a long trail of corpses.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Who would win in a Legion/NCR fight?

NCR have more guns, more bullets and more soldiers.

Legion on the other hand is so good at scavenging and fighting without guns they can send entire armies into NCR territory and act as guerrilla bands, affecting trade and troop movement.

 

[TomJ]

The Legion is too unstable to be successful. Other than Vulpes who isn't in the line of succession for the Legion, no one high up seems to be intelligent enough to run the Legion. It'll fracture just because it lacks leadership for the long haul. It'll still be a threat in the short and medium term. Areas where it is strongest, Flagstaff to Phoenix will still contain a large kingdom that will likely threaten New Vegas in the long run.

The NCR isn't a great option because of corruption and over expansion. So neither Legion or NCR are good choices for the Mojave. Going for House would be the best choice because he has vision and will use the groups that remain strategically. The Kings and Followers are strong, strong enough to be an ally/puppet of House. that was something that wasn't really elaborated on in game, but it could have been a possibility if a Broken Steel like DLC was made.

 

[Dr Fallout]

The Legion is too unstable to be successful. Other than Vulpes who isn't in the line of succession for the Legion, no one high up seems to be intelligent enough to run the Legion. It'll fracture just because it lacks leadership for the long haul. It'll still be a threat in the short and medium term. Areas where it is strongest, Flagstaff to Phoenix will still contain a large kingdom that will likely threaten New Vegas in the long run.

The NCR isn't a great option because of corruption and over expansion. So neither Legion or NCR are good choices for the Mojave. Going for House would be the best choice because he has vision and will use the groups that remain strategically. The Kings and Followers are strong, strong enough to be an ally/puppet of House. that was something that wasn't really elaborated on in game, but it could have been a possibility if a Broken Steel like DLC was made.

The Kings aren't friendly with House, and their attempt at helping the migrants makes House dislike them. The Followers also dislike House because he doesn't help the locals of Freeside. Also, House is only good for Vegas and the Mojave at best. I can't see him trying to run the US, though the Legion and NCR are well in reality to do that.

 

[TomJ]

The Kings aren't friendly with House, and their attempt at helping the migrants makes House dislike them. The Followers also dislike House because he doesn't help the locals of Freeside. Also, House is only good for Vegas and the Mojave at best. I can't see him trying to run the US, though the Legion and NCR are well in reality to do that.

My point is that he could use them. Not to take the US, but stabilize the region enough to get what he needs. The Kings would be easy to bribe with money and resources. The Follower's would be the same, it was easy to get them to work with the Garrets even though they'd get more booze to push. The Securitrons aren't easily replaced and would be better served being used in other places rather than providing security on highways. Losing some members of the Kings to bandit attacks is far better than losing a securitron or two.

 

[Dr Fallout]

My point is that he could use them. Not to take the US, but stabilize the region enough to get what he needs. The Kings would be easy to bribe with money and resources. The Follower's would be the same, it was easy to get them to work with the Garrets even though they'd get more booze to push. The Securitrons aren't easily replaced and would be better served being used in other places rather than providing security on highways. Losing some members of the Kings to bandit attacks is far better than losing a securitron or two.

Yeah, Mr House helps Vegas but that's it. Not really, they're honourable in their own way. The Followers only worked with the Garrets because there are clear bonuses in doing so (play over the quest again and read what is said), they weren't bribed. Yeah, relying on mercenaries. That's NEVER worked out badly right?