The Neo-Liberals ...

[GonZo_626]

@Crni Vuk
Just a question for you? How much of your total wage goes to paying taxes? I think this is the issue for Americans.

Tax free day is a day when you have worked enough to pay all of your taxes for a year.

US April 24 2015
Canada June 10 2015
Germany July 11 2015

So looking at this Americans pay significantly less taxes then Germany (which looks to be well over 50% judging by the date) this is their fear of socialism. Hell I'm Canadian and look at Germanys and think another month of paying taxes would be ridiculous.

But that being said I heard on the radio this morning about greatest nations on the planet by some group based on certain metrics and Germany was no.1. Canada no. 2, the U.S. was no. 4.

 

[CT Phipps]

Well, that's the only way we have so far. Maybe we can get another president down the line that can compromise and get more done while making both sides happy. Guess we will have to stay tuned in.

Compromise is idiotic at this point. The Republicans keep winning because they don't compromise. Democrats need to adopt the same strategy of all or nothing.

 

[DarkCorp]

Barack Obama won the election because he DID compromise. Bill Clinton also got elected because, he too, compromised. Bernie Sanders is simply too clean and extreme to get elected or even get things done. Like I said, in order to get favors, one has to give favors. That means savvy political maneuvering and learning how to sell shit to get Joe Plebe to vote for you.

The primary reason the left LOST this election was because the people were simply sick and fucking tired of hearing all the SJW, snowflake, femi-Nazi, etc, bullshit that was constantly spewing forth.

http://nextshark.com/get-out-film-asian-character-racism-llag/

This fucking cuck is a perfect example. Jordan Peele says Asians are super duper racist SO IT MUST BE TRUE. There were numerous other examples in the Trump Wins thread if you want more.

Bernie or Bust extremists would rather have Trump in office than Clinton. I mean, I prefer Trump a sliver more but hey, it is a win for me, but a terrible loss to the Democratic party. Same with all the people that voted for the green hippy Stein.

This election cycle, was a shitfest BECAUSE, you had BOTH sides who were really un-willing to compromise. The reason Trump won was because, at the last minute, the party sorted itself the fuck out, and realized that a Trump presidency was a better alternative than a Clinton presidency period, and got its shit together, no matter how bad the taste.

The Democrats, well, that did not happen. Bernie came in, fucked everything up by riling up all the rabid anti-establishment people and then had the actual GALL, to think that he could depend on these people to vote Clinton, for the sake of party unity, to at least get SOMETHING done.

 

[MutantScalper]

@Crni Vuk
Just a question for you? How much of your total wage goes to paying taxes? I think this is the issue for Americans.

Tax free day is a day when you have worked enough to pay all of your taxes for a year.

US April 24 2015
Canada June 10 2015
Germany July 11 2015

So looking at this Americans pay significantly less taxes then Germany (which looks to be well over 50% judging by the date) this is their fear of socialism. Hell I'm Canadian and look at Germanys and think another month of paying taxes would be ridiculous.

But that being said I heard on the radio this morning about greatest nations on the planet by some group based on certain metrics and Germany was no.1. Canada no. 2, the U.S. was no. 4.

That's a pretty meaningless comparison. The thing about Germany is that they have a very high 'buying power'. Meaning with the same amount of money the Germans can buy a lot, more then many other folks. So, yes, they pay a lot of taxes but they also get a lot with those taxes. For example UHC and all kinds of other goodies. Including a safe society.

 

[GonZo_626]

That's a pretty meaningless comparison. The thing about Germany is that they have a very high 'buying power'. Meaning with the same amount of money the Germans can buy a lot, more then many other folks. So, yes, they pay a lot of taxes but they also get a lot with those taxes. For example UHC and all kinds of other goodies. Including a safe society.

And 1 American dollar is equal to 0.94 Euro's, the American dollar has buying power too. Many Americans do not want to pay the high taxes of nations with more socialist policies, I am sure that many of those "progressive" people do not realize how much it will hit their pocket book to institute many of those policies that they ask for. Also in general taxing at a higher amount has a higher affect on the less fortunate then the wealthy as the poor are living pay cheque to pay cheque while the rich are just not socking as much away.

 

[MutantScalper]

And 1 American dollar is equal to 0.94 Euro's, the American dollar has buying power too. Many Americans do not want to pay the high taxes of nations with more socialist policies, I am sure that many of those "progressive" people do not realize how much it will hit their pocket book to institute many of those policies that they ask for. Also in general taxing at a higher amount has a higher affect on the less fortunate then the wealthy as the poor are living pay cheque to pay cheque while the rich are just not socking as much away.

If you don't want to pay taxes then basically that means that you don't want to build your country. Eventually, even if you use the money you saved by paying lower taxes will not help you when the roads and bridges and generally the society around you crumbles. A lot of that in US. Canada might be better off. The taxation across Europe has been designed to hit the high earners more then the very low earners and that's the way it will continue to be. US markets itself as a kind of tax haven for big earners, much of the rich in US pocket their money and don't spend it. The poor have it very bad in US.

 

[GonZo_626]

If you don't want to pay taxes then basically that means that you don't want to build your country. Eventually, even if you use the money you saved by paying lower taxes will not help you when the roads and bridges and generally the society around you crumbles. A lot of that in US. Canada might be better off. The taxation across Europe has been designed to hit the high earners more then the very low earners and that's the way it will continue to be. US markets itself as a kind of tax haven for big earners, much of the rich in US pocket their money and don't spend it. The poor have it very bad in US.

The US works the same:

Marginal Tax Rate Single Married Filing Jointly or Qualified Widow(er)
15% $9,226 – $37,450 $18,451 – $74,900
25% $37,451 – $90,750 $74,901 – $151,200
28% $90,751 – $189,300 $151,201 – $230,450

And this is just from a quick google. Plus the US Infrastructure is in a better condition then Canada's from what I have seen, but that is a different story as Canada is a vast country with a low population. We in Canada just don't have the amount of people to pay for it all. The simple fact is the US as a nation is more libertarian, and want a smaller government then many nations have.

 

[MutantScalper]

The US works the same:

Marginal Tax Rate Single Married Filing Jointly or Qualified Widow(er)
15% $9,226 – $37,450 $18,451 – $74,900
25% $37,451 – $90,750 $74,901 – $151,200
28% $90,751 – $189,300 $151,201 – $230,450

And this is just from a quick google. Plus the US Infrastructure is in a better condition then Canada's from what I have seen, but that is a different story as Canada is a vast country with a low population. We in Canada just don't have the amount of people to pay for it all. The simple fact is the US as a nation is more libertarian, and want a smaller government then many nations have.

Yea I know all about the US government. And on some level I am in full agreement, they should have as small a government as possible. Non-existent would be perfect.

 

[DarkCorp]

If you don't want to pay taxes then basically that means that you don't want to build your country.

Non-existent would be perfect.

Um, no, just no.

What you really are saying is, 'We do not want euro socialism so we would rather have our country become a hellhole'.

AGAIN AGAIN AGAIN. Socialism with American characteristics is just fine. We DO NOT, want European socialism. We do not want Canadian Socialism.

Nice straw man though.

 

[Crni Vuk]

What is 'American socialism'?

@Crni Vuk
Just a question for you? How much of your total wage goes to paying taxes? I think this is the issue for Americans.

Depends, there are different classifications depending on your income, type of work (employee, entrepreneur etc.), but most people have a net income that is around 56% of their gross income. However, many taxes are divided between the employee and his boss, like health care, entrepreneurs pay everything for them self.

And 1 American dollar is equal to 0.94 Euro's, the American dollar has buying power too. Many Americans do not want to pay the high taxes of nations with more socialist policies, I am sure that many of those "progressive" people do not realize how much it will hit their pocket book to institute many of those policies that they ask for. Also in general taxing at a higher amount has a higher affect on the less fortunate then the wealthy as the poor are living pay cheque to pay cheque while the rich are just not socking as much away.

Yes, but we Germans experience excellent public services, like our public transportation, very cheap and high quality water and many other public goods, like our autobahn and all that. German infranstructure is pretty great. Sadly in the recent years there has been a very huge lobby trying to privatize more and more public institutions, like pensions and they are even talking about privatizing the german autobahn. So far every privatisation in Germany has lead to more costs for the public with less service, so people are usually always weary and worried when it's mentioned.

 

[Hassknecht]

What is 'American socialism'?

You pay a lot of money but get nothing in return, which is your own damn fault because you should have shot anyone trying to rip you off.

 

[GonZo_626]

What is 'American socialism'?


Depends, there are different classifications depending on your income, type of work (employee, entrepreneur etc.), but most people have a net income that is around 56% of their gross income. However, many taxes are divided between the employee and his boss, like health care, entrepreneurs pay everything for them self.


Yes, but we Germans experience excellent public services, like our public transportation, very cheap and high quality water and many other public goods, like our autobahn and all that. German infranstructure is pretty great. Sadly in the recent years there has been a very huge lobby trying to privatize more and more public institutions, like pensions and they are even talking about privatizing the german autobahn. So far every privatisation in Germany has lead to more costs for the public with less service, so people are usually always weary and worried when it's mentioned.

Well I will say I think some core services need to remain with the government, like roads. Looking at tax free day (which includes sales taxes and such) Americans pay more than 30% of there total wage, Germans are well over 50%. You are used to paying that tax, the Americans are not, even raising them to Canada's amount would probably cause mass foreclosure and raise poverty (even with a greater offset for poorer people). They need to raise and add very slowly to not cause these things to happen. A plan like Bernies would have bankrupt the government and half the people of the nation. I can guarantee that it would not be the 1%. We can talk about using the military's money to do this as well as fund other things, but that means the rest of there allies will have to start ponying up the cash for themselves (Trumps complaint about NATO members!!!!).

 

[Crni Vuk]

That's why I said it's complicated - at least in Germany. We have a rather complex tax-system - but I think a modern state simply needs it, and there is always this talk to make it more 'simple', particlarly by our liberals which is very often an euphemism meaning 'tax cuts for the rich'.
We do NOT pay half of our money to taxes. We get a loan, and that's it. It's not like you give half of what you earn to your government a large part of the 'taxes' are payed by your boss too!

 

[MutantScalper]

Well I will say I think some core services need to remain with the government, like roads. Looking at tax free day (which includes sales taxes and such) Americans pay more than 30% of there total wage, Germans are well over 50%. You are used to paying that tax, the Americans are not, even raising them to Canada's amount would probably cause mass foreclosure and raise poverty (even with a greater offset for poorer people). They need to raise and add very slowly to not cause these things to happen. A plan like Bernies would have bankrupt the government and half the people of the nation. I can guarantee that it would not be the 1%. We can talk about using the military's money to do this as well as fund other things, but that means the rest of there allies will have to start ponying up the cash for themselves (Trumps complaint about NATO members!!!!).

Have you been following what Trump has been doing with the tax breaks to the super rich, tax cuts to, for example, "insurance company CEO's who make more then 500 k per year", and stuff? Care to back up that statement with actual numbers that "Bernie would have bankrupted US" but Trump won't?

Trump has increased the tax payer funds to the US military by astronomical figures. 54 billion $? On top of the 'normal' stuff. Plus the wall. And other crazy stuff. And you, attacking Bernie. Humm.

 

[CT Phipps]

Have you been following what Trump has been doing with the tax breaks to the super rich, tax cuts to, for example, "insurance company CEO's who make more then 500 k per year", and stuff? Care to back up that statement with actual numbers that "Bernie would have bankrupted US" but Trump won't?

Trump has increased the tax payer funds to the US military by astronomical figures. 54 billion $? On top of the 'normal' stuff. Plus the wall. And other crazy stuff. And you, attacking Bernie. Humm.

I'm honestly confused what the military needs the extra money for unless we're trying to take over in incriminates.

 

[DarkCorp]

@Hassknecht

Drama much? EMTALA, ACHCSS, Nutrition Assistance, Medicaid and Medicare, Social Security are just jokes to you, right , we are paying taxes and getting nothing in return.

@Crni Vuk

IMO, American Socialism is social programs that are reaslistic in scope and goal, that takes into account American culture, population numbers, the health issues that affect many Americans, etc. It is also essentially social programs that are sold to Joe Plebe. I have already said this like ACHCCS, EMTALA, Nutrtion Assistance from DES, etc. We can also do more as long as the politicians can sell it to Joe Plebe. The more social programs sold to Joe Plebe without stigmatizing it like tax hikes and whatnot, the more Joe Plebe will be receptive to more change.

@MutantScalper

And maybe Trump is going to be forced to make some changes, go back on some promises, not unlike Reagan. Also, the U.S. over the years, has steadily been decreasing the defense budget until Bush came to office. Is $54 Billion too much? Not sure, depends on how much it costs to keep everything running, keeping the nuclear triad up to date, etc.

If Trump continues to push through unpopular plans, the voters will install a democrat in the white house in 2020.

Bernis programs would have hit Joe Plebe the hardest as the across the bard tax hikes would have hit everything affecting day to day operations like sales tax, state tax, federal tax, etc. Not only that, his programs are supposed to be in perpetuity, so as the population swells thanks to his dumbass open borders AKA amnesty for all illegals plan, costs will continue to rise. Why do you think the primary funding component for keeping OBOOBY care down was the Mandate?

 

[GonZo_626]

Have you been following what Trump has been doing with the tax breaks to the super rich, tax cuts to, for example, "insurance company CEO's who make more then 500 k per year", and stuff? Care to back up that statement with actual numbers that "Bernie would have bankrupted US" but Trump won't?

Trump has increased the tax payer funds to the US military by astronomical figures. 54 billion $? On top of the 'normal' stuff. Plus the wall. And other crazy stuff. And you, attacking Bernie. Humm.

I never once said Trump won't bankrupt the US either. If he does it will just be in a different way then Bernie. But hey your in the UK if I'm correct, imagine if the government came and took another 15%-20% of your wage, that is why I am saying Bernie would have bankrupt the states as you cannot just magically make all those programs appear in 4-8 years and not bankrupt everyone when they are not prepared for it. If you came and took another 10% of my wage I would not be able to afford my life as is, so I sell my house to downsize to something I could afford. This would happen at the same time as everyone else starts to do the same, this would be a housing market crisis as houses flood the market and now I can't afford to live in my house, I can't afford to sell my house as a flooded market has devalued it to potential less then I currently owe. So I am foreclosing.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Is THAT what Bernie would have done? Taxing the shit out of everyone? Like also from Americans that can not pay for it? You have some sources for that?

@Crni Vuk

IMO, American Socialism is social programs that are reaslistic in scope and goal, that takes into account American culture, population numbers, the health issues that affect many Americans, etc. It is also essentially social programs that are sold to Joe Plebe. I have already said this like ACHCCS, EMTALA, Nutrtion Assistance from DES, etc. We can also do more as long as the politicians can sell it to Joe Plebe. The more social programs sold to Joe Plebe without stigmatizing it like tax hikes and whatnot, the more Joe Plebe will be receptive to more change.

That's something I have a bit of a problem with. First, let us drop this 'Joe Plebe' as it simply sounds to me like "Americans are special snow flakes", which is if you ask me, buuuuulllshiiiiiit. Yes, there are obviously cultural differences, but at the bottom, we really DO all value the same stuff - Maslow pyramid. We havn't even gone into a debate right now where the differences matter THAT much. I think the real problem here is, that the Americans haven't really lost a damn lot of wars in the last 100 years. See, having foreign nations marching over your cities and boming everything, can be a real game changer for a lot of things.
Second, it also seems like Amercians are super-duper-hyper-ulta-unbelievably rational when it comes to ANYTHING that has to do with 'social' programms, be it health care, welfare, etc. I mean it costs a ton! And the fraud! OMG! The fraud! Why should we have a system where MY taxes go to poor 'Joe Plebe', Hobo is a choice god damnit! A guy on facebook is constantly posting that ridiculous bullshit of welfare people eating lobsters while 'he' can't even have a steak now and then or something like that. The point I am trying to say, you apply this kind of thinking always to this topic.
Except, when it comes to everything else really. Corporations? FREEEEEMARKEEEET BIATCH! Mlitary? WE HAVE TO DEFEND OUR SELFS! Environment and regulations? OUR ECONOMY YOU IDIOOOOOT!

I know I I know, this is all a bit ridiculous, and I am generalizing a lot right now. But to me as an 'outsider' and 'european' it just always seems so strange to talk about costs in social programms and money, while looking at a defence budged that is like several times of everyone else and also being highly ineffective at the same time. And then I hear how we Eurotards can't deal with money because we are blowing it at expensive social programms, I can't help it but roll with my eyes.

 

[GonZo_626]

Is THAT what Bernie would have done? Taxing the shit out of everyone? Like also from Americans that can not pay for it? You have some sources for that?

None beyond the common sense of the money has to come from somewhere to pay for those programs, pray tell where does it come from, well its a simple answer of taxes. This should be no shock as money has to come from somewhere. Tell me what is the lowest tax bracket in Germany, Canada, or the UK paying in taxes. In the US it is 15% of there wage. In Canada its around 35%, you see the difference? Yes you have to TAX THE SHIT OUT OF EVERYONE to supply government services, the more services you offer THE MORE TAXES YOU NEED. Healthcare is expensive as shit, either for the individual or the government (WHICH WOULD NEED MORE TAXES TO PAY FOR IT). Providing school lunches, better unemployment insurance, capping daycare costs, EVERY GOVERNMENT SERVICE costs money of ALL citizens in that country. A lot of people are happy having a lower level of service from their respected government if they get to pay less taxes, the US just does it on a Federal scale. I work for a government body and I get yelled at about taxes all the time from people who would rather have there road fall apart then pay $20 more per year.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Maybe you have, well most probably yeah. But, let us not pretend like ANYONE of us here would be some kind of pro when it comes to taxing and politics. Making a sound 'tax system' is AT THE VERY LEAST as difficult like making a proper health care system - and we curently see how much the republicans understand from it ...
Without all the 'Jobe Plebe' USA-Is-a-special-snow-flake-and-it-can't-be-done-like-in-Europe talk here, let us make at least ONE THING clear, so that we at least speak the same language.
It is in principle possible many nations like Norway, Sweden, Finnland, Germany, France, Spain, etc. have proven that it can be done, and that even for generations, without ruining the state hell even a couple of well relatively 'poor' states have a better welfare and health care system than the USA, but that just by the way. Ok, ok USA is USA it's not Sweden etc. but we are NOT even talking on that level right now, it is just about the PRINCIPLE behind it. I hope we can at the very least agree on that one.
Now, as I said I am really not a pro when it comes to taxes, but I know that it is a bit more than just like a "household" with your typical income and expenses, because when it comes to nations, they work a tiny little bit different than that. See you can make plans and financial decisions that go over several generations, you can cut deficits, you can have different tax systems for different people and incomes, like the more you earn the more you pay, different professions would have to pay different amounts or buisness that fuck the environment a lot maybe get taxed a lot and so on and so forth. And let us not forget that nations can actually decide to print their own money, in other words inflation. But that just all on the basics, not sure if I got everything right now, but I think we all get the picture, nations are somewhat ... pretty complex.
Now, on the case of Bernie, I think that I have heard also somewhere that he had the idea to increase or create new taxes on financial transactions, Wall Street and Banks, maybe even something like a financial transaction tax, which should have been like done AGES AGO(!). And yes, probably many households with GOOD(!) income, would had to pay more taxes, but oh the horror! Laywers making like 200 000 a year would have to pay more in to the system, I am crying tears.

At the very least, Bernies ideas had more behind it than either Trumps - as we can see now, or even Hillaries.

I think you can look at it from a different angle too.
Almost everything can be quantified and I am pretty sure someone has done it here as well I just don't know where to find accurate numbers right now, but that's not the point anyway.

What I mean is, you can take for example the amount of taxes people pay, and say we increase those at least on higher incomes so that we reach a higher social stability, like less poor, more welfare, more support etc. this leads to less civil unrest and more stability in the population, in Germany we call this also the Onion-model like where you have a very huge middle class making for a relatively stabile society, because people can at least buy shit now, like paying for their aparment and all that even if they do end up without a job, their health care is still covered and so on and so forth.
But well you might have heard about the Hoover Index after all.

Now you can look how much this would 'cost' the people on average and look at how much everyone would have actually to pay from their income, if the taxes would be lower without all those government programs in place. I mean a less stabile society leads to more riots, theft and all the stuff and people would have to either protect themself or their property now, like as many do with the so called 'gated communites', leading maybe to a situation where they pay higher rents, someone to protect the neighborhood, higher rates for their insurance companies as more stuff gets destroyed and stole and so on.

I wouldn't be surprised if those 'rich' people end up actually paying MORE from their money now, simply because a lot of stuff is privatised now and they have to take a lot more precautions, compared to a situation where you had less people in poverty or at least in the lower class.