The Neo-Liberals ...

[Walpknut]

We don't know wether Comunism could work or not.

We know Capitalism doesn't work, we are just forced to stay in the system because the rich insist on it even as it destroys culture and lives.

 

[lolpop109]

I find alot of people say that capitalism is shit society is shit however no one really offer an alternative

 

[Walpknut]

Then you are not paying any attention because lots of alternatives exist but the ultra rich love to either sabotage or demonize them while pushing an economic model that is already destroying itself.

 

[lolpop109]

Then you are not paying any attention because lots of alternatives exist but the ultra rich love to either sabotage or demonize them while pushing an economic model that is already destroying itself.

I am not saying that don't exist but the amount of 'edgy' people who say fuck the goverment or whatever is getting really old. And I mean really old. If i had total control i sure would try some different however I would't want total control . Things are bad for some and not for all intill that kinda changes things won't change either

 

[Crni Vuk]

Look, the the thing is there might come a point where it's not just talking anymore, history is kinda on the side of the masses here.
As Mark Blyth says at 11.23, You can't defend the Hamptons. In other words, people will eventually come for the rich.


And now, we see where all of that is heading.
Down the path of the USA has already taken.

I find alot of people say that capitalism is shit society is shit however no one really offer an alternative

Social Market economy for example. And that is just the 'applied' ideas, we havn't even talked about new concepts, like basic income for example - and yes the money is there, for all of those things AND to keep the rich as 'rich'.

Many European nations have some kind of social market or 'wellfare state' as Americans would call it, and while they pay higher taxes, they have better wealth, higher life expectancy and more social stability compared to the US and on top of it a smaller deficit. Acording to Mark Blyth Even Italy is in a better position compared to the US, with 'only' a 1/3 of their population in the underclass where as it is around 40% in the US right now.

Anyway, one thing is clear, what ever if you believe in capitalism or not, changes have to be made one way or another as the next 50 years will see huge economic, cultural and social changes. That's for sure.

 

[Walpknut]

The amount of dumb people who have very simplistic understanding of any discussion is bigger tho. A more worrying situation.

 

[lolpop109]

Social Market economy for example. And that is just the 'applied' ideas, we havn't even talked about new concepts, like basic income for example - and yes the money is there, for all of those things AND to keep the rich as 'rich'.

Many European nations have some kind of social market or 'wellfare state' as Americans would call it, and while they pay higher taxes, they have better wealth, higher life expectancy and more social stability compared to the US and on top of it a smaller deficit. Acording to Mark Blyth Even Italy is in a better position compared to the US, with 'only' a 1/3 of their population in the underclass where as it is around 40% in the US right now.

Anyway, one thing is clear, what ever if you believe in capitalism or not, changes have to be made one way or another as the next 50 years will see huge economic, cultural and social changes. That's for sure.

I can't remeber the country I think it might be Sweden pay everyone money for just being alive witch is actually a very interesting concept. Therefore people can actual focus on what they want to do in their life and contribute something meaningful. This is an idea I very much like but how many people would take advantage or it do nothing I dunno. You would defintly get alot more people focusing on more creative things so that would defintly be a huge benefit.

Of course but at this stage in time I think it be too hard to predict whats going to happen we probably can't even think of concepts that will be reality by that stage

 

[TorontoReign]

Cap

I can't remeber the country I think it might be Sweden pay everyone money for just being alive witch is actually a very interesting concept. Therefore people can actual focus on what they want to do in their life and contribute something meaningful. This is an idea I very much like but how many people would take advantage or it do nothing I dunno. You would defintly get alot more people focusing on more creative things so that would defintly be a huge benefit.

Of course but at this stage in time I think it be too hard to predict whats going to happen we probably can't even think of concepts that will be reality by that stage

I'm down with that. Mandatory military service (unless such and such requirement disability blah blah) like Israel too.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I can't remeber the country I think it might be Sweden pay everyone money for just being alive witch is actually a very interesting concept. Therefore people can actual focus on what they want to do in their life and contribute something meaningful. This is an idea I very much like but how many people would take advantage or it do nothing I dunno. You would defintly get alot more people focusing on more creative things so that would defintly be a huge benefit.

Of course but at this stage in time I think it be too hard to predict whats going to happen we probably can't even think of concepts that will be reality by that stage

As far as I know no nation has accepted that as general concept, what they've done in Sweden was just a test in some small town or region to see how 'viable' it is by handing out money to some people, without any demand or requirment, as a kind of test. The Swiss had a referendum, but they voted against it. There is always just a talk about what concept the basic income should be - there are countless of ideas floating around.
In Sweden if I remember correctly, they had the idea to give everyone 600 or 800 euro. Not enough to live everywhere, so you would still have to take some job. Where as in Swiss they had a referendum where they wanted to decide if the basic income should contain 1500 euros - so you really wouldn't have to take a 'job' to speak so. The Swiss decided against it.

As said, there are many different concepts behind it. Of which some say, you get only a bit of money, or you get enough that you can survive without a job.

The Basic income isn't just a 'leftist dream' however, quite a lot on the left opose the basic income, where as there are some conservatives and neo-liberals that even welcome the idea. It depends about what kind of 'basic income' we're talking about. It's a highly complex topic.

As far as Europe goes, the really sad part is, that for 20-25 years the 'left' has won the cultural and political dominance in Europe, and it was the left that has done some of the most and worst changes, dismantling social structures and actually allowing neo-liberal agendas to creep in, like as we saw with the opening of the job market, deregulation of financial transactions, like with banks and investments, hedgefonts etc. and by cuting taxes while lowering social security and lowering funds for education, allowing for privatisation etc.

 

[Juza The Cloud]

You Walp say that after spouting some dumb hyperbolic stuff yourself from time to time and it makes you look like the foolish one though. Spouting simple slogans is just that. I agree with generally speaking with your views but it comes off as immature and a bit I dunno whiney/impotent rage like. So if that's the context just to blow off some steam then so be it I misunderstood.

 

[Walpknut]

I just do that when responding to dumb statements like Lolpop's. I have gone on long rants about my views before but sometimes I just like a quick snide remark.

 

[Crni Vuk]

A bit of science and discussion behind it as well:

 

[Jogre]

Communism can't work, doesn't matter if it's run by AI or humans as communism has NO sense or place for the individual

So clearly you are disillusioned with both Capitalism and Communism.

What do you suggest then?

 

[Walpknut]

I think Cnri has already made 3 posts on what his preffered system would be.

 

[Juza The Cloud]

I just do that when responding to dumb statements like Lolpop's. I have gone on long rants about my views before but sometimes I just like a quick snide remark.

That's fair and I'll let be Ive been known to do the same thing on issues that get my goat so to speak.

 

[Crni Vuk]

So clearly you are disillusioned with both Capitalism and Communism.

What do you suggest then?

If I would know the answer or something that really works, I would be holding lectures at Oxford or some other university and earning a fuck ton of money trough releasing papers and books.

But personaly I think UBI (Universal Basic Income) and social markets are at least a concept to talk about. There are a ton of companies today that earn really a lot of money, in the billions but they have very few eployes, definetly much less compared to what the Ford company had some 60 or 70 years ago. This money, has to be send back in to the economy so that it benefits more people in some way. There are fewer and fewer employes by large companies (world wide, not just in the US or Europe), yet they earn more in profits and wealth. Without the intention to demonize the people that hold the wealth, it's not 'their' fault its simply how the system works, but it doesn't take a degree in rocket science to see that it is a recipe for disaster, if an growing portion owns less and less, where as a smaller group continues to earn more and more. At some point it might lead to a situaito, where even the people that earn a lot of money now, due to their buisness, will not generate any income anymore. Systems like those always crumble from the top to the bottom, thus any improvement has to come from the elites, those with money, power and (political) influence, the change has to come from the system it self.

Like I said, the challanges will come, what ever if we're capitalist, communist, socialist, neo-liberal, rich or poor etc. you name it. It's not about ideology anymore as Toront once said - just like the effects of global warming.

I simply fear, if changes are not made now, we might see the world in 30 or 40 years mayb even sooner turned upside down - and that is still in MY life time, because maybe in the future the middle class might have completely disappeared and some demagouge that has yet to appear, told everyone to get a pitchfork and kill some rich fuck up society for good.

People fear someone like Trump, but I think, we should seriously fear the left - and I am a leftist by the way! And I mean the 'real' left, the kind of left that we saw in Russia after WW1 and in other parts of the world, the small groups of extemists. Beacuse you know, that their arguments always ring nicely in the ears of those that are desperate, and if you have also someone to blame, be it the bourgeoisie, the capitalist, the rich or what ever, then things can go out of hand very fast. But the truth is, we need the elites as much as they need us. I am a leftist, but I am not an extremist, and I fear them on my side of the political spectrum. And if they think the Nazis with concentration camps are bad, they don't know who Pol Pot and the Khmer Rogue are, go google that fucker if you're interested.
Call me crazy if you want, but historically we are moving towards a world wide oligarchy which is even worse (as far as inequality in wealth goes) compared to medieval times, and we all know how that one ended.

 

[SuAside]

I think UBI is a pipe dream. It's a naive hope at best, or an insideous tool to implement socialism/communism at worst.
UBI cannot work unless the government has total control of the means of production (be it through direct control or insane tax rates and regulation).
Without this total control of the economy (and by extension society) UBI cannot work, since it would just temporarily create huge inflation and the rest would remain as is.

There is nothing that scares me more than the ever increasing population of our planet and the fact that AI and robots are likely to totally change our idea of "work" by the next generation. But UBI is not a solution.
Much like overt communism, it can only ever work if it is efficiently implemented AND everyone does it at the same time. This will never happen.

With UBI, you place your hope in what eventually amounts to control & oppression, dressed up with some fancy words. Free income! Free time! Freedom to chose what you want to do! But nothing is free until we are sufficiently evolved to hit post-scarcity society, which we are very far from hitting. It's all nice to think "well, we'll take it from the evil entrepreneur and redistribute it!", but who are we to decide that? As much as a loathe the idea the rich getting richer, who empowers you to take the fruit of their (or their ancestors') work away? I hope you realize that the persons most hit by this will be average middle class business owners, not the super rich?
I think that above all the role of the state is to protect its citizens, and protect their freedoms (freedom of expression & assembly, privacy, right to defend themselves adequately, self-determination, etc). This is severely at odds with what UBI requires to be implemented.

In the end, UBI represents one world government. It is the only way it would ever come to close to working. And even then, it'll fail and only be a vehicle for continued oppression of the masses.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions...

 

[Skelok]

We don't know wether Comunism could work or not.

We know Capitalism doesn't work, we are just forced to stay in the system because the rich insist on it even as it destroys culture and lives.

Capitalism doesn't work? Look around you. We live in a society where all our needs are taken care of. Where people have to invent problems where there are none. Look at how much technology has advanced in the last 50 years. Our lives are easy thanks to Capitalism.

 

[Jogre]

We live in a society where all our needs are taken care of.

Where people have to invent problems where there are none.

Our lives are easy thanks to Capitalism.

 

[lolpop109]

Capitalism doesn't work? Look around you. We live in a society where all our needs are taken care of. Where people have to invent problems where there are none. Look at how much technology has advanced in the last 50 years. Our lives are easy thanks to Capitalism.

*Some lives are easy thanks to capitalism