The Neo-Liberals ...

We don't know wether Comunism could work or not.

We know Capitalism doesn't work, we are just forced to stay in the system because the rich insist on it even as it destroys culture and lives.

We know very well why communism doesn't work and we have historical examples to remind us of that. Communism doesn't inherently work from the get-go because someone has to sit at the top of the ladder and make the decisions. Communist dictators weren't waiting in line with the masses to get their rations.

There's no perfect solution, tbh. Maybe there's a solution to be had in democratic socialism (i.e. the people control the means of production) but I'm not sure whether or not this would help or stifle innovation - most likely the latter.

Cap


I'm down with that. Mandatory military service (unless such and such requirement disability blah blah) like Israel too.

Sounds like a Starship Troopers society. *masturbates furiously*
 
Capitalism doesn't work? Look around you. We live in a society where all our needs are taken care of. Where people have to invent problems where there are none. Look at how much technology has advanced in the last 50 years. Our lives are easy thanks to Capitalism.
Don't know wether this is a very dedicate trolling or you are truly this fucking stupid.

We know very well why communism doesn't work and we have historical examples to remind us of that. Communism doesn't inherently work fronm the get-go because someone has to sit at the top of the ladder and make the decisions. Communist dictators weren't waiting in line with the masses to get their rations.
That's kinda my point, no real communism has actually been implemented anywhere, it's always tainted and mared by human greed and incompetence.
Only a machine could run it properly, alas I guess that's also a point of why it doesn't work. Hmm.
 
I think UBI is a pipe dream. It's a naive hope at best, or an insideous tool to implement socialism/communism at worst.
UBI cannot work unless the government has total control of the means of production (be it through direct control or insane tax rates and regulation).
Without this total control of the economy (and by extension society) UBI cannot work, since it would just temporarily create huge inflation and the rest would remain as is.
Depends, about which 'model' of the UBI are we talking about right now? There are literaly thousands of approaches, calculations and ideas. Sometimes they come from the left, sometimes from the right even.
UBI is discussed by all political ideologies and it has supporters and enemies in pretty much all political groups.

The big problem is, right now no one can say if it is a pipe dream or not, as there are no tests with enough verifable data, which is a big issue right now as it means that you can't have a proper debate outside of 'ideology', like you said Commust dream at worst - there is nothing communist about it by the way, or a naive hope. But the truth is, no one knows it.

What we know however, automatisation will happen, it's already starting now and it will reach more and more jobs. I believe, to say that our 'current' system is ready to deal with that is actually a naive pipe dream - what ever if UBI is the correct answer, that's another question, but there can be no doubt that changes have to be made one way or another, we can't turn 50% of the population into programmers.

There is nothing that scares me more than the ever increasing population of our planet and the fact that AI and robots are likely to totally change our idea of "work" by the next generation. But UBI is not a solution.
Much like overt communism, it can only ever work if it is efficiently implemented AND everyone does it at the same time. This will never happen.
Historical and scientific research indidcates that the 10th billion person most probably will never be born. So it is an issue, but it most probably won't be the downfall of mankind. ANd the problem with the overpopulation right now, is not a lack of food, but the proper distribution. 30% of the world population simply consume more than the rest in both food and resources. If you take the average american or german as standard, than you are right, yes we are doomed if we try to push everyone to that level. But I think it's pretty obvious that this won't happen any time soon.

Again, UBI =/= Communism, infact there are many leftist that vehemtly argue AGAINST(!) UBI as communists or extreme leftists often want to see some kind of labour behind the benefits they get from the state, everyone is supposed to 'work' something what ever if he wants it or not, for the greater good of society and the state.
The idea of socialist states like the Soviet Union isn't to provide everyone with an equall income, the idea was to get everyone to 'work' for the state and lose any kind of individualism while the state provides everything necessary to reach that goal.

The UBI would be pretty much the antithesis of that, as you could decide to work what ever you want to work, or ... you just don't, and follow what ever else you want to do, if that means writing controversial books than you can do just that.

The UBI has much more to do with individiualism.

With UBI, you place your hope in what eventually amounts to control & oppression, dressed up with some fancy words. Free income! Free time! Freedom to chose what you want to do! But nothing is free until we are sufficiently evolved to hit post-scarcity society, which we are very far from hitting. It's all nice to think "well, we'll take it from the evil entrepreneur and redistribute it!", but who are we to decide that? As much as a loathe the idea the rich getting richer, who empowers you to take the fruit of their (or their ancestors') work away? I hope you realize that the persons most hit by this will be average middle class business owners, not the super rich?
I think that above all the role of the state is to protect its citizens, and protect their freedoms (freedom of expression & assembly, privacy, right to defend themselves adequately, self-determination, etc). This is severely at odds with what UBI requires to be implemented.

In the end, UBI represents one world government. It is the only way it would ever come to close to working. And even then, it'll fail and only be a vehicle for continued oppression of the masses.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions...
How is it 'opression'? Or let me paraphrase it, how is it more opressive then what you have already in place with stuff like the minimum wage, which is often enough still not enough to garantue a decent life with a single job.

Besides, I always find it funny to talk about 'money' or 'finances' here, when you look at a few numbers, for example workers on minium wage had a compensation of 14 billion dollars, where as Wall-Street has thrown out 28 billion dollars in bonuses alone WITHOUT(!) the compension.

I find it funny how often people talk about the 'free market' and 'free enterprises' in a society like the US, if this is how the freedom looks like:
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Well than I think the US can keep it, I will gladly take the social wellfare state as we have it in Germany at least. As I think I have more freedom in what I want to do, compared to someone who has been 'left' alone by the state.

All the numbers right now point in the direction that the form of capitalism we see in the US and in other parts of the world, is failing and it is failing hard. Capitalism has sure done a loot of good for some parts of the world - while killing many others in return, no one can denny that. But we have to face the fact that we have to change at least SOME parts of it. Or we will eventually see a collapse. And in a society like the US that is so heavily weaponized ... it doesn't take much to see why that will be a huge disaster once a critical mass is reached. We're living in a society that works like a pyramid, with the richest on top. Those kind of structures, always start to fall apart from the bottom. And that is what we're seeing right now.
 
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I already replied, and others did. Your assertion is just stupid beyond belief and disconnected from reality.
 
Except I am not an idiot who claims stupid shit like "We live in a society were all our needs are taken care of", come back to talk about the world and how todays problems are all made up when you move out of mom and daddy's....
 
Yeah. Obviously not everyone can have perfect lives. Most People's lives are easy.

I don't really know what you mean ? Easy does't me right or good. easy in that most people go to work and get payed to do so they can live ? I guess in theory that makes sense. I am also pretty sure alot of people round the world would say their life isn't 'easy'. You ask a child who is working 50 hour weeks in India if their life is easy
 
Yeah. Obviously not everyone can have perfect lives. Most People's lives are easy.
More than 60% of the American population is currently living in the under-class just above the poverty line. Yes, perfect lives. And very easy too.


It just so happens that child labor and homelessness are also both major problems is China...
You should compare american lives to american lives and not to chinese. I mean if you broke your leg, feeling some huge pain does it help you much if someone told you that you shouldn't scream or complain, because you're still having it 'easy' you're not having AIDS or Cancer?
Besides, no one here said that capitalism hasn't had it's positive side.

Strange though, how suddenly some people call this development of jobs moving to china 'vulture capitalism' when the reality is that there is no vulture capitalism, there is just capitalism. You go, where it's cheaper to produce. That simple.

Capitalists don't understand capitalism.



Honestly if I was the owner of a billion dollar business and someone told to me, I know a way how to cut on 80% of your production cost while keeping the same price for your product, I would be a pretty shitty business men to not consider it.
You can blame business men for being greedy, but you can not blame them for being business men. It's politics (sadly in ways the 'left' politicans, Obama was one of the biggest neo-liberals of the recent years and Clinton removed many of the regulations in the financial market) that sold the common worker to the neo-liberals and lobbyists instead of forcing the companies to make the average person also benefit from opening the job market to the global market.
 
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What are you defining the poverty line as?
Yeah, that is a bit of a wonky definition, but we really shouldn't talk to much about that anyway since it's completely missing the point. And the point is that many people earn substantially less while corporate profits have grown by a lot.
I mean what ever if you're a capitalist, socialist or liberal, but no one can denny that america has seen better days.
 
Well we have quite extensive social democratic system here in the Nordic countries. They say that the spiritual home of socialism/communism is in Siberia where during the super cold winter it made sense to support your neighbours if they were running out of firewood or something.

Capitalism is a wider concept then most like to think. Most today just think "oh capitalism it's like Apple and stuff and Starbucks and I like those companies so yea, I have no problem with it, like totally". The way I see it the ancient pharaohs etc. were capitalists exploiting the workers making them build pyramids etc. Religion has been fused with power and money since time immemorial. Socialism is trying to 1) make our leaders just humans, not gods like the pharaohs were, and promote parliamentary and public rule in the world, 2) basically get rid of religion because it's stupid, 3) to make the world fiscally more fair, 4) replace religion with science, etc.

So the way I see it, no socialism/communism isn't dead and probably can't die. People who like capitalism because they "like Apple" or whatever are actually just trying to sacrifice the children of the world to the Egyptian monster god Baal.
 
The UBI would be pretty much the antithesis of that, as you could decide to work what ever you want to work, or ... you just don't, and follow what ever else you want to do, if that means writing controversial books than you can do just that.
Some people are not interested in writing controversial books though, they just want to eat, copulate, and sleep all day long. Thanks to UBI they'd breed 15-20 kids happily and easily, which is a huge problem. Whether you're willing to admit it or not, there's shitload of selfish fucks in every society, who doesn't give a shit about the future, environment, or they own descendants on that account. How you'd cope with this, without serious oppresion?
 
1. REFORM education. We are currently learning rote memorization and testing instead of working on helping people learn practical things that effect their daily lives dramatically.

2. College should be required only for STEM related fields only.

3. Socialism with American characteristics. Things like EMTALA are one of the big socialist wins that I root for, brought about by Reagan, one of the GOPs biggest heroes. I am a big believer of states rights and to allow each state to develop socialism along the lines of its voter base. In AZ for example, we have something called ACHCCS and it is a state/federal program that offers health insurance to those in need. The cost is split between the state and federal level so the drain is more balanced rather than relying heavily on penalties, much like OBOOBY care.

4. The climate. if we are serious about climate change, then the FIRST thing we need to do is put a better face on green energy than idiots like Jill Stein. How has beating the public over the head with fire and brimstone rhetoric done for green energy? People know we need to change but beating Joe Plebe over the head with fear isn't going to help the issue. We need to make a better effort at selling green energy to the masses, and not associating green energy alternatives with tax hikes and government over-regulation is just the first step.

5. Programs to incentivize companies to play a bigger part in charitable/social programs. Imagine it as a very small form of the corporate republic.

We are all armchair philosophers here and none of us say we have the answer to everything or that our ideas are perfect. However, this is just my small contribution to the discussion.
 
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