The Shandification of Fallout

Jebus said:
...
I guess TES games will never be able to create cities as densely populated as GTA, for instance, because in TES you can enter every house and pickpocket or otherwise interact with any NPC, which is tracked etc. throughout the entire game. Savegames get bloated enough already.
I'd assume things will get better when technology progresses. So far I still think Skryrim did the best job in regards to creating a believeable world.

I'm sure you are aware of how big gameworld could be, so I really think technology is not main limiting factor here. Not any more. But being big is only a part of it, other elements must play their role. I know that I'm mentioning STALKER way too much, but it's a good example how ALife (AI for all that moves in the gameworld), when working right, can transform relatively small and full of limitations, mediocre world; and this youtube clip is good but not even a best example - It's the first I remebered.

As for lack of NPCs in Beth's games, it's not the game engine to blame; Bethesda is milking its engine as much as they could. Instead of buying real one:) This theirs new one (critically acclaimed no less), it's the same shit as the old one, just some bells and whistles added.

I was playing X3 Albion Prelude not long ago and I noticed the game is tracking thousands of ships and resources throughout 50 or so star systems. Save game, late in the game, have rarely exceeded 30 MB. And probably not that optimized either. I can live with that if that means believable world which I like.

It's sad how often (for one reason or another) developers ignore how unpredictability of the gameworld is important for lots of us players. And, by unpredictability, I don't mean bugs in the game.
 
To be fair, Bethesda did create one of the biggest gameworlds so far, with realistically sized cities and realistic distances between them. Populated by hundreds of thousands of NPCs.
Of course, most of the NPCs were randomly generated and not very useful, but still.
Daggerfall is still most impressive and really one of the only realistically sized games I can think of.
Its size is completely overkill, of course, and way beyond even todays technology if implemented without procedural content generation.
/edit:
I don't know if grayx already mentioned Daggerfall in that video of his. I can't watch it because Google and GEMA are both bratty little children, apparently.
/edit2:
The video didn't mention it. I'd have to say that Daggerfall is a bit larger than Fuel, though, about 480000km².
 
Hassknecht said:
... Daggerfall is a bit larger than Fuel, though, about 480000km².

Ah yes, The Daggerfall, Minecraft, Elite and all those dynamically and procedurally generated spaces, although mechanics of building those gameworlds is somewhat different then this, predefined terrains that are mostly in mentioned games. Nevertheless, point is there are methods to build a world as big as you like. Main problem is: what to do with it:) The vast majority of developers, if ever contemplated about this, stumble on this question. Most got overwhelmed by idea of manual labor that will be required to fill that world with meaningful and relevant stuff to a player, often forgetting they are building a computer powered game not a film projected as a static pictures, be that 2D or 3D.

Imagine every time you start Fallout it has a brand new and unrecognizable cities and terrain to explore. Dynamic quest allow brand new side-quest every time you play a new game, you can enter every house, try to pickpocket any locket and talk sensibly to anyone as AI is not retarded. Eh, these are just but a sweet dreams, until someone doesn't make standardized AI and other common elements of games, something like MS have pushed standardization of windows and through that, accelerated whole program development process. I think it's possible...

Eh, and yes, I want German or Russian/Ukrainian (Ex Soviets) developers to build the core rules and core game elements. US devs should stick to Graphic and CGI elements. Ok, maybe they could do GUI also, but that's all:)

Ok, I derailed, carry on.
 
I thought the video was pretty weak, maybe because I was expecting something else. I have the impression he is a bit confused, the guy is not really talking about narrative, he is about world building, which is important, but not the key aspect that made Fallout unique. I didn't read the news post and thought this would be about Fallout 1 instead of FO 3 and NV.

I'd rather have a video analyzing Fallouts narrative structure, which for me was the best feautre of the game. A typical linear plot progression looks like this:
A-B-C-D-E

What was interesting about Fallout was that it didn't have so much of a plot rather than a set of objectives that have to be fullfiled. These objectives are spread around the gameworld and can be fulfilled in different ways.

A....................................... B..........................

................... C .................................. D .....

................................ E...............................

You have to find the water chip, you have to kill the Master, but there is no strict linear progression that would force you to meet a series of characters and do a series of quests in a strict order to win the main quest.

Instead, you as a player are gathering CLUES and INFORMATION relating your objectives, for example where is the Water Chip? There are different sources of information in the gameworld who can help you to find the Chip, but often they are independent from each other, which gives you alternatives ways to find the Chip.

Most importantly, the are no artificial barriers, the Water Chip is out there to be found, it isn't magically summoned by some "plot essential" NPC after doing a linear progression. Same with the Master. He is there, he is in the gameworld, and you do not need to follow a linear sequence of quests to find him.

This is why, with meta-gaming knowledge from a previous playtrough, you can finish Fallout even after killing every NPC in the gameworld. Or why you can do a speedrun and using a few tricks and meta knowledge go straight to the Master and blow him up. This is because KNOWLEDGE is essential for progression in Fallout.
Lets assume A is the starting point of a game, and B is the the final objective of a game. In a typical, linear game, what stands between A and B is a series of quests, that have to be done in a more or less linear way.

In Fallout, what stands between A and B is your LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. The game allows you to go directly to B, but you don't know where B is, and how to reach it, and what to do with it...that's why you have to explore the gameworld, talk with NPCs, gather information and clues. Once you know everything about B, there is nothing that hinders you from skipping much of the exploring, talking and fighting in a second playtrough, and go directly from A to B using your meta knowledge.

In a linear game, you can't do that. You will still have to do the same linear sequence of quests everytime you play the game, because B is closed of from you by artificial barriers that can only be lifted by progressing trough the linear plot (a typical example for such a barrier would be a plot critical location, that can be only reached by the player after he has reached a predefined moment in the plot).

Fallout is the complete opposite of a linear, cinematic story like Mass Effect. This is why I think in the video Mass Effect was wrongly displayed of an example of "Shantification". Sure, you can explore the world at your will, but the actual plot progression, the main quest, is still LINEAR.

There is this one experience which will for ever make Fallout one of the best games ever made in my mind. During my first playtrough, I arrived in Necropolis with my level 5 character. I talked to one of the Mutants there and was brought to the Mutant base where the Lieutenent interrogated me.

Now it is obvious that the Mutant Base is supposed to be an area that by most players will be experienced during a later stage of the game and not during early mid-game with a level 5 character.

Still, I decided not to reload, and instead to try my luck in the base. I had excellent diplomatic and science skills and some sneaking ability. With a lot of save and reload I managed with my level 5 character not only to escape the base, but also to set off the auto destruction and blow the Mutant Base up.

In a linear game, this would have been impossible. In the course of a strict main quest, you would first need to learn about the Master from a plot relevant NPC, do a series of quests, and then finally be lead to the Mutant Base and asked to destroy it.

In a game filled with independent "objectives" like Fallout, it is possible to destroy the Mutant Base early in the game, without you even knowing about the Master and his plans, and the game will recognize your deed and react accordingly.

This is a good example of what I am talking about, and maybe that's why I am dissapointed because I expected a video that would describe this amazing non-linear structure of Fallout.


tl;dr
I guess the video was ok, but a bit confused. When it comes to narrative structure, I'd rather have someone make a video about Fallout 1 and eloquently lay out what I tried to describe in my post.
 
I am digging all the thoughtful replies/debate. Agree with the video or not, but I always dig content that gets people talking :clap:

Crni Vuk said:
Actually Gothic 1 and 2 did the best job.

Very true. Long since been what TES should be, if they had different priorities.
 
makes it even more sad when you think about it how much both Piranha Bytes and JoWooD screwed up the franchise. I mean as far as the world from Piranas new game goes Risen was pretty neat too. But it still dint feelt as fleshed out like Gothic. And I have read mixed opinions about Risen 2. Though about the Gothic situation I blame it more on JoWood then Piranha ... particularly when I consider what they made out of Gothic 4 ... which is even worse then the shift from F1/2 to F3 ...
 
Risen 2 is not a bad game, I liked it quite a lot. But yeah, due to the changed gameworld style, it just feels... less open and free, more linear / streamlined. It makes sense that they go this way, because they *had* to deliver a finished and bug free product in a short amount of time. Yet it's really sad how it turns out in the end.

I think I should replay Gothic 1 again in the sooner future. I haven't played it since so many years, I probably forgot many cool parts, so a replay would be a little bit like doing it again for the first time. :)
 
He was talking about the connection between setting and narrative, and how setting and narrative structure are not independent from one another in a non-linear story. The player has the option of discovering information in the order they wish and fitting it together, (though most stories will still contain linear cause and effect chains, as well). You are describing the same thing as him, just in a different way.

bonanza said:
I thought the video was pretty weak, maybe because I was expecting something else. I have the impression he is a bit confused, the guy is not really talking about narrative, he is about world building, which is important, but not the key aspect that made Fallout unique. I didn't read the news post and thought this would be about Fallout 1 instead of FO 3 and NV.


tl;dr
I guess the video was ok, but a bit confused. When it comes to narrative structure, I'd rather have someone make a video about Fallout 1 and eloquently lay out what I tried to describe in my post.
 
Lexx said:
I think I should replay Gothic 1 again in the sooner future. I haven't played it since so many years, I probably forgot many cool parts, so a replay would be a little bit like doing it again for the first time. :)
an remake of Gothic 1 would be pretty awesome, a bit bigger world, a bit more stuff to do, but basically everything else the same, of course better visuals with new graphic.

Would love to see that.
 
grayx said:
Imagine every time you start Fallout it has a brand new and unrecognizable cities and terrain to explore. Dynamic quest allow brand new side-quest every time you play a new game, you can enter every house, try to pickpocket any locket and talk sensibly to anyone as AI is not retarded. Eh, these are just but a sweet dreams, until someone doesn't make standardized AI and other common elements of games, something like MS have pushed standardization of windows and through that, accelerated whole program development process. I think it's possible...
Procedurally generated Fallout? Definite possibilities there regards inter-town random encounters (caves/camps/ruins etc.) But as for the main storyline... I dunno, it's like you're asking for a procedurally generated novel. And not just a really well-written one with dialogue to boot, but one with as many plot branches as a Choose Your Own Adventure book (I used to love them!)

Scary thing is up until a week ago I would have said that was a pipe-dream, up until I watched a show where an AI got a guy to crease up laughing. Okay, not exactly Eddie Izzard at the peak of his powers, but when you've got AI that gets the basics of comedy, that most emotion-savvy of the arts, how long is it until we produce an AI that can master The Seven Basic Plots (or something of that ilk) and boils them down to an algorithm?
 
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