The worst location in fallout 2?

I mean, people have mentioned the Abbey and the EPA, which aren't part of the main game, only part of the Restoration Patch.

I love the Restoration Patch for allowing you to rescue Sulik's sister, and having different ways to get to the Oil Rig, HOWEVER, I feel like restoring the content was a mistake.

Firstly because if you're restoring a location that the game wasn't built to account for, it's going to be weaker: The Abbey and EPA are just isolated islands that have very tedious connections to anywhere else. This is the price of restoring cut content: the main game world isn't designed to take it's existence in to account, so it's kinda just seperated from the whole thing.

The other reason is that I feel like a lot of content was cut for a good reason:

The EPA, beyond having a whole bunch of glaring logic issues(The Human Zoo), Only really works if you have a countdown timer: The whole premise is that you have this facility with pre-war genetic engineered plants and pesticides, so you can experiment with Agriculture in Arroyo and potentially get bad side effects, which is supposed to be the same deal as making a deal with the Water Merchants: you bypass the Water timer, but at the expense of Mutants finding your Vault easier. It's supposed to be a gamble, but since there's no actual limit on how long you can take to retrieve the G.E.C.K, the EPA kinda has no purpose to being there, and just detracts from the main game with it's siliness, without adding much of substance in return. The trade off isn't worth it.

By extension, I also find the restoration of Kaga to be really annoying. Like it was a cool idea to give the Chosen One a rival, but I feel like the devs made a good call in cutting that out of the final product.

Like Kaga just shows up in areas where you'll already be fighting Bandits and Yakuza and Press Gangers, and it feels kinda like an arbritrary fight. Also the whole premise of "I should have been the Chosen One" feels completely stupid and just a shit reason to be fighting someone. I feel like Fallout Van Buren would have handled the Rival system much better.
 
Jogre said:
I mean, people have mentioned the Abbey and the EPA, which aren't part of the main game, only part of the Restoration Patch.

I love the Restoration Patch for allowing you to rescue Sulik's sister, and having different ways to get to the Oil Rig, HOWEVER, I feel like restoring the content was a mistake.

Firstly because if you're restoring a location that the game wasn't built to account for, it's going to be weaker: The Abbey and EPA are just isolated islands that have very tedious connections to anywhere else. This is the price of restoring cut content: the main game world isn't designed to take it's existence in to account, so it's kinda just seperated from the whole thing.

The other reason is that I feel like a lot of content was cut for a good reason:

The EPA, beyond having a whole bunch of glaring logic issues(The Human Zoo), Only really works if you have a countdown timer: The whole premise is that you have this facility with pre-war genetic engineered plants and pesticides, so you can experiment with Agriculture in Arroyo and potentially get bad side effects, which is supposed to be the same deal as making a deal with the Water Merchants: you bypass the Water timer, but at the expense of Mutants finding your Vault easier. It's supposed to be a gamble, but since there's no actual limit on how long you can take to retrieve the G.E.C.K, the EPA kinda has no purpose to being there, and just detracts from the main game with it's siliness, without adding much of substance in return. The trade off isn't worth it.

By extension, I also find the restoration of Kaga to be really annoying. Like it was a cool idea to give the Chosen One a rival, but I feel like the devs made a good call in cutting that out of the final product.

Like Kaga just shows up in areas where you'll already be fighting Bandits and Yakuza and Press Gangers, and it feels kinda like an arbritrary fight. Also the whole premise of "I should have been the Chosen One" feels completely stupid and just a shit reason to be fighting someone. I feel like Fallout Van Buren would have handled the Rival system much better.
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Yeah I always felt a lot of the RP was superfluous and not great content. The best ideas of the EPA later got adapted into Big MT anyway
 
San Francisco, without a doubt. Its a real shame, because all three of them are conceptually quite cool. Needed more ties to the rest of the world rather than just a weird isolated ecosystem, needed more abandoned portions of the city (as in the boneyard), Hubbologists needed to be played more straight, Shi needed to be less of a racist charicature.
 
Modoc, was the worst location but a unique concept which arrives too late in the early part of the game to be engaging. Modoc's story, should have been Klamath, so as to give the player a good starting point with side quests.
 
VaultTecCivilDefense said:
Modoc, was the worst location but a unique concept which arrives too late in the early part of the game to be engaging. Modoc's story, should have been Klamath, so as to give the player a good starting point with side quests.
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Gotta say, this is incredibly harsh over what's basically a minor issue. "The quests feel more appropriate for a first location, therefore since it's not one, it's the worst location in the game"

The way I saw Modoc is the way it's introduced: the way you come across it is that by the time you discover it, you're probably already heading to Vault City, either because Vic told you he got the Vault 13 Canteens there, or otherwise because you've heard secondhand that people are buying up medicines from Vault City, so you're heading there out of desperation for a lead.

Since Modoc is directly in the path between The Den and Vault City, you're likely to stop by it. And as a sleepy little farming town with a bed and breakfast, it actually kinda adds this almost perfect vibe for a quick pitstop on your main route.

Plus the way it introduces the major quest to you is perfect: either you hear from the locals that the same drought that is killing your village is making life in Modoc economically unsustainable, and the town will be abandoned in a few months, or you ask the first guy you meet, the town Sheriff, about the G.E.C.K, and he'll tell you he has heard of one, but needs to help you out, making him the first character you've met in the game to know what a G.E.C.K is. That's immediately compelling.
 
Jogre said:
Gotta say, this is incredibly harsh over what's basically a minor issue. "The quests feel more appropriate for a first location, therefore since it's not one, it's the worst location in the game"

The way I saw Modoc is the way it's introduced: the way you come across it is that by the time you discover it, you're probably already heading to Vault City, either because Vic told you he got the Vault 13 Canteens there, or otherwise because you've heard secondhand that people are buying up medicines from Vault City, so you're heading there out of desperation for a lead.

Since Modoc is directly in the path between The Den and Vault City, you're likely to stop by it. And as a sleepy little farming town with a bed and breakfast, it actually kinda adds this almost perfect vibe for a quick pitstop on your main route.

Plus the way it introduces the major quest to you is perfect: either you hear from the locals that the same drought that is killing your village is making life in Modoc economically unsustainable, and the town will be abandoned in a few months, or you ask the first guy you meet, the town Sheriff, about the G.E.C.K, and he'll tell you he has heard of one, but needs to help you out, making him the first character you've met in the game to know what a G.E.C.K is. That's immediately compelling.
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The tone, role and music of Modoc always perfectly reflected stumbling across a serene and peaceful little spot on a long road trip to me.
 
For me, Modoc kinda feels like the Shady Sands of Fo2. Nobody is guiding you to it, you will just stumble over it naturally.
The only thing I hate about Modoc is the rat quest, because unlike Shady Sands' scorpion cave, it doesn't have an entrance that you can just bomb with dynamite and be done with it.
 
Jogre said:
By extension, I also find the restoration of Kaga to be really annoying. Like it was a cool idea to give the Chosen One a rival, but I feel like the devs made a good call in cutting that out of the final product.
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I liked the whole Kaga segment, even when it had longer unskippable dialogs that were partially cut afterward. But i would have prefered if the player character manually triggered it, by destroying a shrine or taking the wrong dialog option when discussing about him with a villager who mention it, etc...

It can be fun and engaging for the first time, but can be annoying after several playthrough.
(even the short encounter with Horrigan at the beginnning becomes annoying after hundreds of playthroughs. I want to be able to control my character all the time, not being forced into unskippable exposition scenes about things i already know)

About Modoc and the Abbey, i would have liked if they were treated as side location, with medium or small sized green circles, closer than bigger locations. It works fine if you consider as secondary settlements of a region that contain more important locations. It works well with locations like the Village near Vault City or Ghost Farm, or the several secondary locations around New Reno. I loved how Fallout Nevada played with that concept. Not every location need to be as important as the others.

About the EPA, i think it provides for a need, despite some sillyness here and there. The game is filled with great cities, and i loved the ratio of Cities/Dungeons, but it feels like the game could have a bit more and bigger dungeons. And the EPA is one of the best dungeon gameplay wise, (especially as it focus more on exploration and small puzzles than fighting critters) even if has some issues lore-wise and tone-wise (which i don't consider that big)

I have more issue with the Umbra tribe, as it doesn't stand appart enough from Arroyo, doesn't have that much content, and requires you to travel a lot to get there. It would have liked it to be closer to the Den, with a smaller green circle, more alike the toxic caves.

PS: The Modoc rat quest is a piece of cake compared with Klamath rat quest and Modoc brahmin protection.
 
If it wasn't for the unskippable tutorial in Arroyo, it would perhaps be something else, but the tutorial is not the only issue I have with Arroyo.

If we don't count the side quest to gather seeds (because it's not found in vanilla version), which is triggered some time after you leave the place, and I find it great (It is a journey, but it's so worth it. Good job whoever worked on EPA), I don't think they're good, and I'm not talking about their rewards, it's fine not having a great reward in a starting location.
*The quest to find flint seems to be there just to introduce the stealing mechanic / trading with the AI. The interactions with your aunt are very limited and you don't know about her past. Will you hurt her feelings when she finds out her flint was stolen? Probably, but considering how undeveloped her character is, I wouldn't say it's a difficult choice.
It doesn't help that when you check the character with your "arrow" cursor, this description will come up:
You see Morlis, one of your aunts -- the one who never liked you.
*Village's well is broken. You deal with the problem. Only one NPC in the tribe is concerned about the source of water, and he is the only one that shows gratitude for what you've done, the other people don't ever mention there was any problems with their well, it makes you wonder if they even noticed. Wonderful.
*A rescue quest massively worse than the one you get in Shady Sands. Geckos temper wasn't properly scripted if you ask me, you can easily go to where Smoke is standing and leave the area, without engaging in combat. And that radiated pool should be closer to the exit grid, to kill Smoke if the player is not careful (after dealing with the wild creatures). The way it is now, the player will simply reload the game if the dog steps on it, as he/she is expecting to battle the lizards with Smoke's assistance. I mean, until the player realizes it's possible to avoid fighting them, thanks to their faulty AI.
*Clearing the garden from the dark souls is the better (official) side quest in Arroyo, Hakunin is a fun character so I don't mind offering him some help. It's fun to kick the plants in the "chin", but it would be better if they were harder to fight. For example, I wish their spikes did more damage, even if the developers had to remove the ability of the player using them as weapons, to keep balance.
I'd almost say it's good, if only the player couldn't take some steps away from the plants, and rest / heal MC's injuries talking with Hakunin. This ruins this quest, for me.
*Find Vic quest. This fat guy abandoned his family, and was a pain in the ass for poor Sulik. Why should I help this guy, again?
And unlike Morte from PS:T, I don't think it's cool him calling me "boss" in the dialogues. You know Vic is never sarcastic with you, he likes to kiss your ass, after being freed.
One of my least liked joinable characters.
Searching for his damn radio or giving his boss one thousand coins (I'd rather use money to help in Sulik's situation) isn't exactly a priority, when I start a playthrough.

Healing powder sucks and unless you cheat, you can't skin Geckos in the start of the game. So I've little reason to venture in the area with wild animals. I've the impression most traders wouldn't waste time trying to create such powder, considering how much they're willing to pay for the ingredients.

There's antidotes inside the temple, but none of the characters in the village sell you antidotes. It's like the scorpions were taught to remain inside the temple, so who in their sane mind would sell antidotes to the prophesied savior of Arroyo. It's not like there's radscorpions out there in the wasteland. No, no.
 
I think NCR/Shady Sands in Fo2 is kinda weak, looking back at it. Its the capital of the most developed nation of the Wasteland, its said to be a big city, and it looks smaller than Vault City. There just aren't many quests, and the map design is just bad. It really doesn't feel like what should be the biggest metropolis of the Fallout world, the center of civilization on the West Coast. Honestly, the only reason to visit NCR after being done with it, is to buy guns and ammo from Duppo.

Way I see it, a good Fallout city should always be made in a way that makes it look vaster than what you see - its why cities like New Reno and The Hub work so well, they really are designed in that way. You are not seeing the entire thing, you are just seeing a small snapshot of things which interest you.

(its partly why the cities on the nuFallouts fall so hard - they look too damn small, they don't know how to deal with open world + the need to make something look bigger than it is)

Shady Sands really looks bad compared to its younger brother, Tarant from Arcanum. Tarant is seeeeeexy.

The "Clean City" of Las Vegas from Fallout of Nevada feels like a far better take on a clean and nice settlement. Then again, its not 100% post-war.

It doesn't even have its own music, just using Hub's theme. How lame is that?
 
Slaughter Manslaught said:
I think NCR/Shady Sands in Fo2 is kinda weak, looking back at it. Its the capital of the most developed nation of the Wasteland, its said to be a big city, and it looks smaller than Vault City. There just aren't many quests, and the map design is just bad. It really doesn't feel like what should be the biggest metropolis of the Fallout world, the center of civilization on the West Coast. Honestly, the only reason to visit NCR after being done with it, is to buy guns and ammo from Duppo.

Way I see it, a good Fallout city should always be made in a way that makes it look vaster than what you see - its why cities like New Reno and The Hub work so well, they really are designed in that way. You are not seeing the entire thing, you are just seeing a small snapshot of things which interest you.

(its partly why the cities on the nuFallouts fall so hard - they look too damn small, they don't know how to deal with open world + the need to make something look bigger than it is)

Shady Sands really looks bad compared to its younger brother, Tarant from Arcanum. Tarant is seeeeeexy.

The "Clean City" of Las Vegas from Fallout of Nevada feels like a far better take on a clean and nice settlement. Then again, its not 100% post-war.

It doesn't even have its own music, just using Hub's theme. How lame is that?
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I definitely agree with the idea that NCR was underwhelming. I had played Fallout 1 and New Vegas prior to Fallout 2, and I was really looking forward to seeing a point in the line of progression from quaint Shady Sands to the massive, far-reaching NCR force present in New Vegas. Like you said, the city of NCR in Fallout 2 felt too small, and there wasn't much to do there. I was majorly let down. It was nice running into Tandi again, though.
 
Beside having less stuff to do there, it falls a bit flat compared with Vault City and New Reno who offers two opposite with extreme lawfullness vs anarchy and outlaws and the pros and cons of each lifestyle. Those makes the choice for the fate of Redding and the overall power struggle over the whole region more compelling. The NCR feels «standard», by comparison. Like a neutral option so you can reject both extremes.
 
I have to vote for Temple of Trials.
San Fran feels weird but at least there is something to do there, quests shops etc and its not mandatory to complete it everytime you get to the game.
Altough it does feel weirdly disconected from the rest of the Wasteland and with basically zero influence outside which is weird given their high tech and wealth.
 
Lexx said:
I'm also for Frisco. Every other location has something worthwhile going, but Frisco always feels like a real drag to me. I don't even do the quests there anymore except the Navarro related stuff and what needs to be done for the main quest.

Next in line for me is the NCR. Except for the V15 stuff I honestly don't remember a single quest.

Besides this I'm always pretty much ignoring all the wacky shit like that stuff in Broken Hills. Luckily you can easily ignore it and aren't depending on the EXP.
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sanfrisco's shop is the most big shop in fallout2
 
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