Things you like from Fallout 3

What you guys have a problem with Enclave is that YOU think Enclave is just an oil rig out in the ocean plus one advance base in Narroyo. So the powerful might of the F3 Enclave hit you where it's hardest: your preconception.

But if you ever stop and think for a moment:
1. HOW, exactly, an Oil Rig just survive alone out in the ocean? their people is numerous, comparable to an aircraft carrier's amount. EVERYBODY know aircraft carrier need a shitload of supplies transported from supply base, by smaller ships, out to feed and fuel them, day in day out. Even a nuke AC which doesnt need fuel for their power plant need fuel in form of batteries for their various equipment. So Oil Rig need supply bases.
2. Same question for Navarro which is a military, aircraft repair/refuel station, and forward base too. Navarro doesnt produce ANYTHING. So Navarro need supply bases in addition to the Oil rig's ones.

THAT logic dictate the Enclave has shitload of other bases just to supply these two, let alone other continental HQ bases.

The Enclave army in F3 doesnt really surprise me back in 2008. It's super logical.

Very Late edit: AHS-9 does mention "The Enclave are a remnant of the past - a neurodyne that has yet to be aligned. They have hidden bases all over the shards of old California, and their strongest stronghold is off to the west, over the waters." based on his dialog file.
 
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laclongquan said:
What you guys have a problem with Enclave is that YOU think Enclave is just an oil rig out in the ocean plus one advance base in Narroyo. So the powerful might of the F3 Enclave hit you where it's hardest: your preconception.

But if you ever stop and think for a moment:
1. HOW, exactly, an Oil Rig just survive alone out in the ocean? their people is numerous, comparable to an aircraft carrier's amount. EVERYBODY know aircraft carrier need a shitload of supplies transported from supply base, by smaller ships, out to feed and fuel them, day in day out. Even a nuke AC which doesnt need fuel for their power plant need fuel in form of batteries for their various equipment. So Oil Rig need supply bases.
2. Same question for Navarro which is a military, aircraft repair/refuel station, and forward base too. Navarro doesnt produce ANYTHING. So Navarro need supply bases in addition to the Oil rig's ones.

THAT logic dictate the Enclave has shitload of other bases just to supply these two, let alone other continental HQ bases.

The Enclave army in F3 doesnt really surprise me back in 2008. It's super logical.
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Honestly the people who argue about the lore and retcons are really gay, the only issue is Bethesda homogenizing the entirety of the setting and sucking out all the intrigue of what would be happening in another state by making everything Enclave vs Brotherhood
 
The thing about the Enclave is that it wasn't that big even in pre-war times.

The Enclave was just a bunch of rich people, a few (probably) important military figures, some scientists and a few politicians with enough power to even influence the government.

There weren't thousands of people in the Enclave, so by Fallout 2 they couldn't have such numbers that they could fully man several bases across the country.

We also need to remember that the objective of pre-war Enclave was to get on two space shuttles and leave Earth. Again, this shows that their numbers couldn't be that many, since the shuttles weren't supposed to fit a lot of people on them.
 
If the Enclave where not in their enclave (the oil rig) then this term is misleading. Remnants of capitalist pig-doggery would have been a better name.
 
NotZak said:
Honestly the people who argue about the lore and retcons are really gay
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There's nothing "gay" about rightfully criticizing pointless retcons that completely demolish internal consistency. Because if the rules are constantly changing, why should i care about your world? Respecting the rules you made up is imperative in making people actually give a shit.

NotZak said:
the only issue is Bethesda homogenizing the entirety of the setting and sucking out all the intrigue of what would be happening in another state by making everything Enclave vs Brotherhood
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Not the only issue because Bethesda Fallouts have a plethora of issues just related to writing and world building.
 
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Am i in bizarro world? They said it was the ONLY issue (actually read their post), i said there's MORE than just one issue. I didn't reword their point, i said there were MORE issues.

The implication of their post is that there's only one issue with the way Bethesda writes for the setting when there's far more than one. When someone says "the only" it means they think there's only one.
 
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Risewild said:
The thing about the Enclave is that it wasn't that big even in pre-war times.

The Enclave was just a bunch of rich people, a few (probably) important military figures, some scientists and a few politicians with enough power to even influence the government.

There weren't thousands of people in the Enclave, so by Fallout 2 they couldn't have such numbers that they could fully man several bases across the country.

We also need to remember that the objective of pre-war Enclave was to get on two space shuttles and leave Earth. Again, this shows that their numbers couldn't be that many, since the shuttles weren't supposed to fit a lot of people on them.
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I dont get where you got your impression of "a bunch of rich people, a few (probably) important military figures, some scientists and a few politicians". I honestly dont know. This is Enclave in F2, not Vault Zero in Fallout Tactics.

Enclave is the only faction capable to sending out vertibird wings everywhere, set up a forward base to service them in the mainland (Navarro). Once upon a time they set up a temp base in Mariposa to keep a bunch of slaves to dig up there. THAT capability speak of thousands of mil personels outside of their bases, base on USA demonstrated in how they sending out air-capable military force. Not my guess, based on how US set up mil bases in Philippines. OUTSIDE of their safe zone, mind, not total number.


Based on Nazi research team in death camp, the Oil Rig Enclave research teams should be around tens. They have nother team in Navarro too doing cyberdog, deathclaws. Two force combined and the number of research can come close to hundred, from major lead, minor researchers, and bunch of laboring assistant researchers. I can be conservative and halve them to 50. Isnt this the number in a big-ish university?

Politicians I cant say since we only know two. But rich people we can extrapolate from the total number of military + research + politicians, then ten times to twenty times that number for total pop (say 20k)(healthy ratio of mil+research+pol in a pop). Out of that 20k, 5% is 1000 should be number of rich men (rule of 5%). Since no other appearance of Enclave towns, we can only assume that 20k spread out in number of underground vaults, meaning holy sheeesh, 10-100 extra vaults.

All that number is extrapolating from Enclave's known appearance in F2. Advance decades later and we have F3's army of Enclave.

VERY late edit: AHS-9 does mention "The Enclave are a remnant of the past - a neurodyne that has yet to be aligned. They have hidden bases all over the shards of old California, and their strongest stronghold is off to the west, over the waters." based on his dialog file.
 
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Even if the Enclave made sense in Fallout 3 (which it doesn't, no matter how logic hoops someone jumps through), what did they do with it? Somehow way more one-dimensional than they were in Fallout 2 and made them lame.

The Enclave in Fallout 2 is actually pretty terrifying with how they go about doing things. The Enclave in Fallout 3 are a bunch of dumbasses that make the dumbest decisions to jeopardize their plan (instead of letting the scientists go through Project Purity and rush in at the last second with a bunch of troops to seize it for themselves, they make their presense known far before the water purifier is complete and allow BoS and the player to build a counter offensive), have an AI that literally gives up by the player basically saying "stop" and Colonel Autumn is one of the worst characters in the series. Frank Horrigan might not have much depth but he at the very looks scary and imposing.

And their troops also pose no threat in Fallout 3, literally dying to basic, beginner gear. What's the point of power armor and plasma rifles if you die so fast to old weapons?
 
laclongquan said:
I dont get where you got your impression of "a bunch of rich people, a few (probably) important military figures, some scientists and a few politicians". I honestly dont know. This is Enclave in F2, not Vault Zero in Fallout Tactics.

Enclave is the only faction capable to sending out vertibird wings everywhere, set up a forward base to service them in the mainland (Navarro). Once upon a time they set up a temp base in Mariposa to keep a bunch of slaves to dig up there. THAT capability speak of thousands of mil personels outside of their bases, base on USA demonstrated in how they sending out air-capable military force. Not my guess, based on how US set up mil bases in Philippines. OUTSIDE of their safe zone, mind, not total number.


Based on Nazi research team in death camp, the Oil Rig Enclave research teams should be around tens. They have nother team in Navarro too doing cyberdog, deathclaws. Two force combined and the number of research can come close to hundred, from major lead, minor researchers, and bunch of laboring assistant researchers. I can be conservative and halve them to 50. Isnt this the number in a big-ish university?

Politicians I cant say since we only know two. But rich people we can extrapolate from the total number of military + research + politicians, then ten times to twenty times that number for total pop (say 20k)(healthy ratio of mil+research+pol in a pop). Out of that 20k, 5% is 1000 should be number of rich men (rule of 5%). Since no other appearance of Enclave towns, we can only assume that 20k spread out in number of underground vaults, meaning holy sheeesh, 10-100 extra vaults.

All that number is extrapolating from Enclave's known appearance in F2. Advance decades later and we have F3's army of Enclave.
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I don't know where you got the impression that the Enclave has so many people.
I repeat, the Enclave objective before the war was to use two space shuttles and BOMB 002 to take the Enclave off planet Earth. BOMB 02 can only sustain 6 people for a long period of time and the shuttles could probably carry less than 50 people each and that would be cramming them all.

President Richardson says Navarro is just an isolated base acting as a refuelling station for vertibirds that get chemicals from New Reno. If they need to refuel their vertibirds to reach New Reno, then they would need dozens if not more refuelling stations all over the country to be able to "send out vertibirds wings everywhere" as you said. This is never mentioned or shown in the classic games because the devs didn't intend for the Enclave to be this giant organization that was all over the country.

Dr Curling says that going into the mainland poses a contamination risk. I don't think the Enclave would be filling the mainland with troops all around the country if it's considered a "contamination risk", the Enclave does not want to become contaminated, that would make them mutants just like wastelanders that they hate.

Also, Navarro only has 20 people or fewer in it. I don't know where people get this idea that the Enclave was ginormous. If that was the case they would have hidden in a Vault made just for their survival (vaults can house thousands of people) instead of hiding on an oil platform that could only sustain maybe a couple of hundred people as a stretch.

EDIT: I just realized that even Fallout 3 doesn't talk about other Enclave outposts or bases around the country. And even the official guidebook says that the oil rig was the Enclave's base of operations and all the high-ranking Enclave people were in there before getting orders to move to Raven Rock. No mention of any other bases or outposts in the entire country
It also mentions that human followers were hard for Eden to gather to reform the Enclave on the East Coast (and that's why he went and created his propaganda campaign in the Capital Wasteland), which wouldn't make any sense if there were thousands of Enclave people all around the country, Eden could have just called them in to join him:
The Enclave:
In the recent past, the Enclave—the remains of the United States government—were evacuated to an oil rig off the coast of California. Little is known about what happened to these forces, although the country has a new commander-in-chief: President John Henry Eden. However, recent reports and chatter have pinpointed the resurgence of the Enclave, with their base centered on a secure underground facility known as Raven Rock. Initial contact was made there 35 years ago.
During this time, the new President Eden has been slowly rebuilding his resources, thanks in part to the technology already available at the Raven Rock military base. Vertibirds, weapons, and robots were easy to construct, but human followers were more difficult to find. The answer was to rely on Colonel Autumn, who controls the Enclave soldier forces, as well as creating a propaganda-spewing series of Eyebots sent to roam the Wasteland, spreading hope. Eden could spout his pro-government rhetoric, and promise a return of the pre-war America of legend: a land of white picket fences, baseball, apple pie, and good, old-fashioned American global supremacy.
President Eden's secretive plan all along has been to rule over an America of the "pure," free from any mutation. He has learned of a ridiculously ambitious experiment known as Project Purity, and knew the time to strike had come: His Enclave forces would "reclaim" the Jefferson Memorial. By controlling the purified water, Eden would control the Capital Wasteland, and the rest of the country eventually. What better way to administer modified F.E.V.- which kills anyone infected with any form of mutation-than through the water supply?"
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Colonel Augustus Autumn:
Autumn grew up on an oil rig off the California coast (the base of operations for the Enclave, the secretive contingent of the United States government that survived after the apocalypse). His father was the high-ranking Enclave scientist on orders from the president to move all high-ranking officials to the only other secure Enclave location with a functioning ZAX super-computer, Raven Rock. Colonel Autumn has proven to be far less subservient than his scientist father, often openly disagreeing with the president's decisions.
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Norzan said:
Am i in bizarro world? They said it was the ONLY issue (actually read their post), i said there's MORE than just one issue. I didn't reword their point, i said there were MORE issues.

The implication of their post is that there's only one issue with the way Bethesda writes for the setting when there's far more than one. When someone says "the only" it means they think there's only one.
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I worded my point poorly and think there are more than one issue in the Bethesda titles but I think anyone with half a brain would be able to tell from by post that I'm not exactly fond of Bethesda's writing.
 
Norzan said:
Am i in bizarro world? They said it was the ONLY issue (actually read their post), i said there's MORE than just one issue. I didn't reword their point, i said there were MORE issues.

The implication of their post is that there's only one issue with the way Bethesda writes for the setting when there's far more than one. When someone says "the only" it means they think there's only one.
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Edit Im sorry Im drunk I dont mean that
 
Ugly Kid said:
wa wa wa pee pee poo poo cum cum
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That’s the most succinct way I’ve seen it said that the Oil Rig makes perfect sense in 2, and I agree.

The idea of an offshore rig being maintained is simultaneously no more goofy than Rivet City and yet far more believable due to the nature of the Enclave as an organization, and their pre-war roots.

Again though, you made the real point. I’m simply agreeing.
 
I will ignore anything not mentioned in games, or books, or movies. Just dont have energy to deal with unpublished ideas~ So BOMB or shuttle can just shush ~

Your idea about Dr Curling dont want to risk contaminated is a contrary idea. On the one hand they have operations, with operatives, going into mainland and carry back primitive tribals. Not to forget FEV samples from Mariposa and Special Agent Horrigan. On the other hand you have an ivory-tower egghead spouting things about not wanting to get contaminated? Forgive me if I judge things based on how they acted, not how they spoke

Navarro has several vertibirds in it. And tens of Power armors and turrets in operation. The repairmen to maintain all that, day in day out, should be at least 6 (two team of 3 working 12 hours a day) up to 10 (so they can operate in normal schedule of 8-work-hour day). This come from assuming normal workload in US aircraft refuel/repair depot.

They also has patrol teams operated along the coast long distance from it. 50~ people, total, in base, just wont cut the mustard. Simply impossible. We are talking about roster of rotating people going out to patrol (or acting groundpounders on verti drops) and who stay at base as security and who is taking rest... 50 marines, maybe. And that's minimum sons of a guns.

At least two teams of researchers for two active issue (deathclaws and cyberdog) if not more. So at least 10 people in research roster, doing actual research and anything else that support research alone. Then you are going to need base personel to support all those 50+10+10 people. Based on US ratio in modern time, that support number can range from 60 to 300. So that base can have at least 100 people, and go up to several hundreds. You want to feed 100 people day in day out HOW?
+++ 20 people, just plain speaking out of their devs' arse, if they really confirm that number. Even the actual spawns in that base should exceed 20 already, and that's only number of people stay in that base, not the field patrol teams. (13 actual named chars, with at least that number of generic shooters and generic lab technicians)

Before you complain about thousands (my number 20k+) of Enclave people seem too much to organize effectively... Duh, that's spreading all over, not in one town or one military base. For West Coast alone that's already tiny amount. Bigger compare to most town but barely comparable to NCR as a whole at that time.
+++ It's reason why I have no issue with BOS being paladin of light in East Coast. Without West BOS sending their best and brightest far from home, no way NCR can chase both Enclave and BOS out of their heartlands.

Risewild said:
I don't know where you got the impression that the Enclave has so many people.
I repeat, the Enclave objective before the war was to use two space shuttles and BOMB 002 to take the Enclave off planet Earth. BOMB 02 can only sustain 6 people for a long period of time and the shuttles could probably carry less than 50 people each and that would be cramming them all.

President Richardson says Navarro is just an isolated base acting as a refuelling station for vertibirds that get chemicals from New Reno. If they need to refuel their vertibirds to reach New Reno, then they would need dozens if not more refuelling stations all over the country to be able to "send out vertibirds wings everywhere" as you said. This is never mentioned or shown in the classic games because the devs didn't intend for the Enclave to be this giant organization that was all over the country.

Dr Curling says that going into the mainland poses a contamination risk. I don't think the Enclave would be filling the mainland with troops all around the country if it's considered a "contamination risk", the Enclave does not want to become contaminated, that would make them mutants just like wastelanders that they hate.

Also, Navarro only has 20 people or fewer in it. I don't know where people get this idea that the Enclave was ginormous. If that was the case they would have hidden in a Vault made just for their survival (vaults can house thousands of people) instead of hiding on an oil platform that could only sustain maybe a couple of hundred people as a stretch.

EDIT: I just realized that even Fallout 3 doesn't talk about other Enclave outposts or bases around the country. And even the official guidebook says that the oil rig was the Enclave's base of operations and all the high-ranking Enclave people were in there before getting orders to move to Raven Rock. No mention of any other bases or outposts in the entire country
It also mentions that human followers were hard for Eden to gather to reform the Enclave on the East Coast (and that's why he went and created his propaganda campaign in the Capital Wasteland), which wouldn't make any sense if there were thousands of Enclave people all around the country, Eden could have just called them in to join him:
Click to expand...

Late edit: AHS-9 does mention "The Enclave are a remnant of the past - a neurodyne that has yet to be aligned. They have hidden bases all over the shards of old California, and their strongest stronghold is off to the west, over the waters." based on his dialog file.
 
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I believe Enclave is small because otherwise the writers would've eluded to them being bigger in Fallout 2. And Van Buren is written by the same people so if they go on further to suggest the Enclave was small then they're probably good authority.
 
What they could've done that would be interesting is if there were multiple "Enclaves". Not the exact faction we see in Fallout 2, but other factions of pre-war origin that correctly predicted the end or prepared for it. The government deep state enclave is one such example, but what about another clan of people who saw the escalating doomsday and prepared and planned for the apocalypse and how they'll deal with society after? Fallout 76 actually had this idea to a degree, one of the few things I liked in concept from the game. A faction known as the Free States which was a radical group of anarchists who correctly distrusted the government and mega corporations built their own bunkers to survive the holocaust. They were labeled communist sympathizers and traitors before the war, but after they were the ones to come out on top and survivors came to them for help. Such potential that went nowhere because they're all dead by the time the a game starts, and instead of expanding or reviving these new and interesting factions, Bethesda decided to instead just bring the California BOS to West Virginia.
 
JunjiItosGio said:
What they could've done that would be interesting is if there were multiple "Enclaves". Not the exact faction we see in Fallout 2, but other factions of pre-war origin that correctly predicted the end or prepared for it. The government deep state enclave is one such example, but what about another clan of people who saw the escalating doomsday and prepared and planned for the apocalypse and how they'll deal with society after? Fallout 76 actually had this idea to a degree, one of the few things I liked in concept from the game. A faction known as the Free States which was a radical group of anarchists who correctly distrusted the government and mega corporations built their own bunkers to survive the holocaust. They were labeled communist sympathizers and traitors before the war, but after they were the ones to come out on top and survivors came to them for help. Such potential that went nowhere because they're all dead by the time the a game starts, and instead of expanding or reviving these new and interesting factions, Bethesda decided to instead just bring the California BOS to West Virginia.
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Agree, agree. They like to keep the idea of Enclave as a single faction, with a President in East Coast can command some vaults in Midwest. But the actual post-apocalyptic logic when you come to it in details, is a structure even worse than current day USA: multiple colonels command his own regiments in different lands doing whoknowwhat. They are separate by vast lands, cant even travel by trains or airship, so actual control from top down to force on the grounds is going to be sorely limited. Communication would be by Eyebots carrying package of data travel through all that space because the universe laws still forbid transmitting by airwave or landlines
 
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