Fallout 2 mod Throwing Rebalance

Discussion in 'Fallout General Modding' started by laclongquan, May 14, 2020.

  1. laclongquan

    laclongquan Boned Hunter of Sister

    595
    Jan 11, 2008
    An idea list for rebalancing Throwing in Fallout 2, to make it playable.

    Simplest scenario: make an item that passively grant 20% bonus to Throwing (similar to Motion Sensor). This will make starting character with that item has same level of skill as Unarmed and/or Melee.
    ++Candicate: Plant Spike. you can add this feature onto plant spike and viola! Great throwing enemies abound (spore plants).

    Basic scenario: Modify Throwing items: Plant Spike, Flare, Throwing Knife, Molotov, (Frag, Pulse,...) Grenades. Reduce their AP cost by one point. Aka Throwing Knife = molotov = 4AP. Plant Spike = 3 AP (=one unarmed action)
    ++Note: I dont believe they will be too overpowered. Consumables like Molotov is too expensive, and the splash damage can affect friendly/foe state of combatants. Gamers will have to be careful with explosives. And non-consumables like Flare and Throwing Knives are going tooooooo nitpicky to be of frequent use: you are going to collect every thrown items after EVERY battle. It will get old fast and the players will turn to consumables soon enough.

    Advance scenario: Change the number of Throwing items available in the game. It could affect game economy, so I put this in advanced state. Simplest would be making an NPC trader selling Throwing items only, available in every towns. Put the store inventory into non-restock state to control total number of items add in the game: 9 Flares, 6 molotovs, 3 Throwing Knife, 1 grenade of each type. This is available in each town.

    Side plan: Change molotov into Fire damage, and add Pyromaniac perk to be teachable by NPC trader. That would have made Molotov Throwing character a bit more useable. Not overpowered because Molotov is expensive consumables with limited number even with NPC trader.

    Perk: Change both Bonus HtH and Bonus ROF into affect Throwing. it will not OP throwing, because the usual limit of Throwing in this engine still apply. You will never have enough grenades to use it to max, and picking up thrown items after battle is VERY tiresome.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  2. Vali

    Vali Redeemer

    216
    Apr 29, 2020
    The Idea is good but only when you expand weapons make new ones and not with this what you write here because this makes you early overpowered.
     
  3. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    For starters I would just adjust AP cost and damage of existing items. Adding new stuff is always questionable and produces new, different issues.
     
  4. Vali

    Vali Redeemer

    216
    Apr 29, 2020

    Okay that is a point.... You must look how the balance do it...

    But 1 ap cost for throwing is too overpowered i think..
     
  5. laclongquan

    laclongquan Boned Hunter of Sister

    595
    Jan 11, 2008
    I seem to write unclearly. I mean to reduce one AP, not down to one AP.

    Currently Throwing Knife = Molotov = 5AP. So I suggest it to be changed to 4AP. And Plant Spike down to 3AP, aka equivalent to an unarmed combat action.

    1AP throwing action for consumable grenades is indeed too overpowered~

    1AP is not OP for Flare because the action of recollecting each thrown Flare after battle is a chore. You wouldnt think so, but once you have to repeat that for the 5th battle ANYONE would be sick of it.
     
  6. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    I thought flares are meant as disposable items anyway. You throw them once and then forget about them.
     
  7. laclongquan

    laclongquan Boned Hunter of Sister

    595
    Jan 11, 2008
    in Et Tu, yeah. Flare is auto lit once you throw it.

    But in RP, no. Flare throw out that is missing will remain in unlit state. If it hit, it would change to lit state.

    Also no stacking lit flares, so using them in combat is a big bother.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
  8. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    Well that sounds like a stupid change, imo. Might as well just throw rocks then.
     
  9. Matt Drax

    Matt Drax Smart Ass

    158
    Sep 4, 2010
    In addition to the -1AP reductions, you could also easily add throwing to weapons that make sense:
    Knifes +1AP, Combat Knifes +1AP, Lil' Jesus and Wakizashi +2AP
    (the latter are more unwieldy and slight OP otherwise, even if they are both a bit scarce)
    Ripper makes no sense to throw though imo, lest the enemy picks it up and shreds you with it with the loaded energy cells, guess would be nice to throw if empty and only then, but I'm sure that's not possible in the Hunk o' Junk that is Fallout's engine xP
    Also when you're at it, I would add a +1AP slash/stab attack to throwing knifes ^^
    The values are for unaimed attacks of course.

    Edit: One could of course go a step further and make also Batons, Crowbars, Hammers, etc throwable as well at +2AP costs... say isn't that kinda the balanced standard in FOnline? xP
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  10. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    Well, there is quite a difference between throwing a knife and throwing a throwing knife, which is balanced to be thrown.

    Mechanic-wise, throwing knifes are just melee weapons with a secondary "throwing" attack, so adding this to all other knifes is no big deal... except for the fact that all knifes already have 2 attacks (stabbing, swinging). Wouldn't be surprised if we could add throwing via Sfall, though.

    Ripper is like a mini-chainsaw, so I guess it stops "ripping" once you release the trigger and thus is useless to throw.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  11. Nirran

    Nirran Vault Senior Citizen
    Modder

    Apr 15, 2007
    Code:
    #define Bullseye                                                                           "Bullseye"
    #define BullseyeDescription                                                                "You have mastered the art of thrown weapons. All of your hits with thrown weapons are automaticaly upgraded to a critical hit."
    this perk is available
     
  12. gustarballs1983

    gustarballs1983 Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    919
    Oct 28, 2009
    I was also thinking about it lately..
    Most of You folks forget that spears, shaprened spears, sharpened poles, are a thrown weapon too.
    AFAIK EcCo rebalances throwing by adding aditional weapons and changing the damage calculation based on skill level (adding damage based on skill level).

    My personal proposition is to modify Better Criticals perk to 'also' have the bonus increased to +50% to the roll for thrown melee weapons. Since for thrown weapons One can't get 100% crit chance, than making thrown-meele-weapons crits do more insta-kills is ok in my book.

    As for me, EcCo handles thrown weapons nicely, however it is missing that final end game touch, which could consist of Improoved Better Criticals + 3x More Criticals.

    Edit:
    @Nirran I think the Bullseye perk makes granade weapons OP, especially the plasma grenade. Perhaps the perk could be limited to melee thrown weapons?

    Additional idea would be, instead of 100% crit chance for thrown weapons, perhaps setting thrown melee weapons to have ability to be a targeted shot, ( but no targetting for grenades) and the perk changed to: scoring a critical to the eyes causes insta- death. (achivable by simply increasing the better crtical damage in the new perk by +100% for targeted thrown shots only).
    It would balace nicely since one can get 35% crit chance for thrown weapons at maximum (+/- 1/3 succesfull shots are criticals, and chance to hit is capped at 19/20, melee thrown weapons do so little damage, that one basically is expecting insta kill crits, every few hits. back when thrown weapons had targeted shots the eye bonus and better criticals did the job almost medicore. however giving thrown eye crit 100% chance to kill would bring back thrown weapons back into the game).

    Now I'm sure our skilled Sfall modders will find a way to separate grenades from melee weapons, and enable thrown melle weapons their targetted shots back.

    EDIT#2:
    Just realized that not all body parts for all critters have insta death at maximum roll. wich is fine since thrown weapons could double as tactical advantage during tougher fights, for example insta disabling mob limbs, (like both arms of a enclave solider and finishing them later with eye crits (since eyes are harder to hit).
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  13. Hubal

    Hubal Still Mildly Glowing

    205
    Sep 11, 2014
    I use Fwedit and tune spears, knives etc. to my liking.
     
  14. Vali

    Vali Redeemer

    216
    Apr 29, 2020
    Hahahaha...

    Good but we talk about a mod that change this.

    Why not include throwing weapons like in fallout tactics
     
  15. laclongquan

    laclongquan Boned Hunter of Sister

    595
    Jan 11, 2008
    Spears are bad throwing weapon thanks to high AP usage and no good thing. It's like the game say "awkwark to throw". Which is why I ignored all of them and list only specific throw-only weapons there.

    Normal knife and combat knife is... ugh. nobody would think to use them that way. Which is why I ignored them.
     
  16. laclongquan

    laclongquan Boned Hunter of Sister

    595
    Jan 11, 2008
    Once you have ripper, you would have access to plenty of high class grenades. Why would you throw a one-target weapon when you can throw an AoE weapon? Logic say there's no need to set ripper to throwable.

    It also can lead to silly situation like: one combatant throw a ripper. the opponent pick it up, change to wield it (because higher damage), throw it back at the other side~ So no~
     
  17. laclongquan

    laclongquan Boned Hunter of Sister

    595
    Jan 11, 2008
    No stacking lit flare mean using them in combat is a big bother. You can carry two, throw twice, and remain empty hand with spare AP... Ugh. or you can throw once, change to the other hand carry unlit flare to throw it out. You can do it about once per battle.

    Note: carry lit flare to another map will destroy it. But if you leave it in this map, once you return, it's still here. But no more targets here so it's of no use. Might be of fun usage like dropping them on NPC so they act like street lamp :fun:

    (Before the lit flare run out, I mean. Which is a pretty time-limited fun if you think about it)
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
  18. Vali

    Vali Redeemer

    216
    Apr 29, 2020
    I am with lexx i think also flares, let be flares and not a thing to be used as a throwing weapon. Then better make one or two new weapons like the normal rocks mabye strong rocks or so.
     
  19. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    My problem with adding new items is that you then lose potential compatibility with other mods.

    I'd rather try to improve the situation with editing existing protos and maybe adding new perks via global scripts. Then such a throwing overhaul mod easily works with any Fo2 mod.

    For example I agree that AP cost and damage of throwing knifes is hilariously bad. They are useless in the beginning of the game because you barely hit stuff, and they are useless in late game, because you don't deal any damage. This must be fixed.

    Other than that I never saw throwing as a main combat skill. It exists as support ... if you want to use it as your main thing to take down critters, imo you're doing it wrong.
     
  20. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Nov 26, 2007
    Could it be fixed by drastically improved critical hit chances? A knife is never going to do as much damage as a minigun, but a knife anywhere in the body seems like a critical hit, and probably a crippling injury, until fixed.
     
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