Thrown Weapons Remade: an overdue issue

[Gia Thai]

Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 both pretty much ignored Thrown Weapon Category. What do you think about these in Fallout 3:

- better thrown weapons: throwing axes, stiletto, flying leaf knives, 6 point star... later in game are electro-dart... And good ol grenades, of course. And option of throwing bullets, with critical success is bullets blowing in enemies' vital points . MOre spices, eh...
- Heave Ho Perk is stronger (+3 or +5 PE AND +3 STR in case of throwing, over the 10 point limit) to seduce us to the path of throwing.

- Silent Death Perk (silently kill from afar with throwing axes, or fast acting poisoned throwing knives)

Anyone interested?

 

[The Vault Dweller]

Throwing is probably the least used combat skill and one of those ones everyone forgets about.

I considered tagging with with a character built for HtH combat, but I found that the severe lack of throwing weapons would make it a waste.

I mean almost all of the weapons themselves are found and useful mostly in the early game. You could manage them in mid-game, but I cant imagine going up against a fully equipped Nightkin with just throwing knives and spears.

Oh wait I just remembered grenades...

Ok they are useful at all parts, but since you can only use them once they are limited to dangerous battles with packed groups of enemies and that doesnt happen often enough.

I would personally like to see oh say a "Diamond-edged knife" weighted for throwing and that does at least double the damage of a normal knife...or a larger variety of non-reusable throwing weapons like the dynamite spear from tactics.

Keeping with the post-apocalyptic environs...how about throwing round sawblades? Not much use for them anyway without electricity to power the machines that use them.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller

 

[Gia Thai]

Agree with what you said. The severe lack of weapons to use is just one problem

Okay, lets say early game: flying knives/axes/spear, simple grenades, bullets and some thing else.

Middle game: several kinds of grenades (blinding/ paralyzing/ damage: electro, VX,...), diamond-edge knives and throwing stars, other kinds of bullets, fuel cells, electro-burst boomerang or roundblade, or better, fuel-cell roundblade (explode in fire when strike, adding more fire damage to the normal cutting damage).

Late game: plasma-kind grenades, Monocular blade, coils of monocular wires (throwing in the air to catch their neck then SNAP, good death animation, I think ). EMP boomerang. Silent grenade (causing no noise when explode, I think EMP or electro)

Perks:
Early game: Heave Ho
Middle Game: Silent Death (for thrower) and new perk to lower AP cost for throwing
Late Game: options for highly skilled grenadier to throw a bunch of grenades for big BOOM and several enemies (like chain explosion of traps in Raider Base cave in FO2). Perk to help throw farther (50+ hexes)

Grenade economy:

Early game grenades are maybe scarce, so we mainly use other reuseable weapons: knives, spears, axes.

Middle game: plenty uses of grenades and variety making shopping and inventory management an important issue to solve. I mean, gotta have enough 'nades to throw, but also enough 'dough to buy other thing, enough space in bag to carry them too. Decision decision...

Late game: access to good transportation (vehicles, or just good ol strong mules) helps carrying more grenades, ease up the pressure on our bags. then again, the ability to throw many grenades will put new pressure on it too.

Ho hum.. anything else???
Throw guns at enemy to make him entangled (rifle) or stunned (pistol)?

 

[Brother None]

How about "not all skills need to be equally effective"?

What they did to Unarmed in Fallout 2 to make it more effective was nothing short of ridiculous.

 

[Jarno Mikkola]

Keeping with the post-apocalyptic environs...how about throwing round sawblades? Not much use for them anyway without electricity to power the machines that use them.

Unless you make a crossbow that uses them, ala Space Hack.

But I agree that the throwing never got it's shining place under sun, in the fallout universe, but it could have changed in Van B, cause they sayid that there were not so many bullets around.
But lets not go to the could have, should have, would have, place.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

The thing is throwing is one of those side skills that aren't used that often because you don't use it that often.

Even in the realms of rpgs where people stand toe to toe firing arrows/bullets at each other you don't tend to fight the whole fight with just thrown weapons. Not unless you're in an unassailable position and can throw away without worrying about melee guys coming up and kicking your sorry arse all over the place.

Throwing knives (I refuse to discuss stars with you would be ninjas) are really for the silent kill, perhaps not a lot of need for that in Fallout, but useful for the sneaky character. But even then you don't tend to stand around tossing knives at hordes of mutants. Or you'd throw a knife as more as a distraction than perhaps hoping for a kill. You get caught with your pants down by a couple of raiders and can't go for your gun since they have the drop on you but you have a knife up your sleeve, you throw it. If it takes out your target bonus, but otherwise it might cause them to be distracted giving you time to go for your gun. Again not really much need in Fallout and TB, unless having a throw knife equipped affected sequence (and I can feel Rosh breathing down my neck going balance, extra programming grrr etc etc). I would like to be able to carry a throw knife around in an equipment slot without it registering as a weapon, as the shiv was meant to be in FO2. That could be handy in places.

As for more different types of throwing weapons, well the usual assortment of knives, spears and axes but no stars! Home made grenades should be as rare as military ones unless they're made from combustables that weren't in short supply before the war.

On the otherhand having said all that, wouldn't it be better to have it so that if you are strong enough to pick it up you can throw it if you want, rather than having a lot of specialist weaponry (which most of probably wouldn't fit the setting). Including your other weapons (if you've run out of ammo).

 

[Gia Thai]

I dont consider Unarmed effective in FO2. i you dont catch them you are toast.

I mean, running upto a robber equipped with turbo plasma rifle in a long cave to beat him is ridiculous. Even if you sneak it's not better. The only way is sniping him with laser rifle (energy skill) or Gauss rifle (SG) from 45-50 hex away. Guns beat arms all the time.

And yes, before Navarro and Oil Rig, most dangerous enemies you can meet is Robber in caves (1/13 chance to meet in map with caves, the higher level the better/worse) or Nightkin with Rocket Launcher. Man, I fear them more than the Enclave Patrol. Mind you, I still kill those uglies deader than doornail, but still... It's like FO2 v1.0 whenver Marcus drawing out his Bozar. The element of fear is... delicious. the mouth dry watching that animation. Bam... the rocket hit you with 50 damage and kill your teammate outright. Enclave troop are dangerous in numbers only. If they outgun you it means your teammate die--> reload. I usually adopt tactics to drawing most of their fire to me away from Marcus or Dogmeat.

 

[Brother None]

I dont consider Unarmed effective in FO2. i you dont catch them you are toast.

You could defeat anyone and everything right up to after NCR in Fallout 2 with the right combination of unarmed skills.

New Reno crime families armed with laser rifles? Bang, taste my foot, biatch.

An army of raiders in a cave? Wazooow, time to die.

A vault filled with raiders? Wajaaa, kung fu, baby.

If you mean "it wasn't effective to kill deathclaws/supermutants/enclave". No, no it wasn't, because that would have been too rediculous even for whoever handled unarmed in Fallout 2 to do. Mind, I did kill a lot of aliens with the advanced mega-power fist of Doom®.

But it shows rather effectively why you should let bad skills rest, or if possible merge or remove them.

There's nothing "wrong" with thrown weapons or Fallout 1's unarmed. They're simply inferior combat skills. Ok then. I don't see the problem, you still have 4 effective combat skills to pick from and you can up unarmed or thrown for backup with tagging them, if you want. Great.

Leaving the skill out would be dumb, since these forms of combat exists. Changing the entire game world and mechanics to accomodate for a wish to throw more grenades would be even more dumb.

Though there's nothing wrong with merging Unarmed and Melee Weapons into one big Melee skill.

 

[Gia Thai]

Hmm Intriguing : :!:

Actually, merge Unarmed and Melee is a good idea. I remember the first time I pick up FO2 first thing I wondered is why there was a speration of Melee and Unarmed. But thrown weapon is a different case.

Throwing provide you an option to silently kill enemies without engaging in formal battles. For that we got guns to prove our might. You dont need to sneak too close to them like using unarmed or melee before you activate battle mode. ANd it becomes especially useful if the feature/bug of sneak-kill-with-loud-gun is removed. Bleh. If you want to silently gun him down, you better have silenced guns.

EDIT: Actually, I'm a fan of FT:BOS as well. Which is why my suggestion gotta do with more weapons. I care more about battle , economy of guns/bullets and ways of killing. So...

 

[Wooz]

Sneak-killing enemies with grenades.

Makes sense.

 

[Gia Thai]

Sighed... Gotta make an effort

Throwing never is all about grenades. NEVER.

A flying axe in the night. THUD. and the sentry was nailed to the tree.

Swished. A stileto through the eye. Target drop to the ground without a sigh.

AGRRRR.... Nevermind, everyone got his own favorite killing.

 

[Brother None]

Throwing is not a favoured way of silent killing. Except for ninjas. And there are no ninjas in Fallout.

Backstab was created for silent sneak-kill purposes.

 

[Gia Thai]

Throwing is not a favoured way of silent killing

Tell that to US special forces or Russian SF. I heard their favorite way to take down sentry is a flying axe.

And who say ninja monopolize throwing in assasination. Thats just Holywood. Up close and personal kill by hand (or knives or whatver) is fine and dandy, but sometimes kill from 10 meters away is so much easier than get in the bloody apartment, isnt it? Of course if you want something else(items, information) beside death, then it's another matter.

EDIT: go to bed now, I'll be back in few more hours.

 

[Jarno Mikkola]

Sneak-killing enemies with grenades. Makes sense.

Yes, yes, when you are in steeling, you pull the pin, not the whole grenade.

 

[alec]

The throwing skill is really well implemented in FOT. It's probably the only aspect of the game that was better than in the original games.

I haven't played FOT in a long, long time, but when I do play it, I always take Throwing as my secondary weapon skill. Nothing beats throwing an incendiary (sp?) grenade at your opponent and watch him burn.

It's a very decent skill in Arcanum as well. Last time I played and finished the game, I did it with a character that only had Dodge, Throwing, Pickpocket and Picklocks tagged. I do have to admit that I was using the Jo-Jo of Impending Doom, though... (not alecking!)

 

[Per]

Spetsnaz ninjas kill people with thrown SHOVELS. Or so I hear.

I don't think "diamond" weapons or "magic tech" is the way to go with Throwing. What you need if you want cinematic Throwing kills is a Sniper/Slayer perk that applies to Throwing. Maybe a perk tree that offers bonuses to crit chance and damage from the very beginning, or let crit chance scale with skill (if you want to redo the system). Also make sure grenades are worthwhile. Landing one of them should count - it shouldn't be just a few more HP at best than just shooting away with your regular gun. If the sneakage angle could be implemented, so much the better.

It's a very decent skill in Arcanum as well.

"Decent"? It's the hax skill of übar cheatness since a) you can make any number of Molotov Cocktails to no great cost and b) they cost no AP to use in combat. Walk up to Cthulhu, laugh at his stupid helpless expression and toss away until you empty your inventory or he croaks.

I do have to admit that I was using the Jo-Jo of Impending Doom, though... (not alecking!)

You lie! *ban*

 

[Brother None]

Tell that to US special forces or Russian SF. I heard their favorite way to take down sentry is a flying axe.

Yes, I've heard stupid things too.

Please, throwing axes. The hell are they, indians?

And who say ninja monopolize throwing in assasination. Thats just Holywood. Up close and personal kill by hand (or knives or whatver) is fine and dandy, but sometimes kill from 10 meters away is so much easier than get in the bloody apartment, isnt it?

Sniper rifle.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Melee and unarmed should be definately combined, neither is meant to be a formal martial art and you can usually get in a stab and punch in one turn but to do so with any real effect you have to split your skill points to raise both skills to an effective level.

That said to make unarmed, melee and throwing that much more balanced with small & big guns etc is just to take out most of the ammo.

Sneak-killing enemies with grenades.

Makes sense.

Grenades were the only ranged weapon you could use in FOT while sneaking without betraying your presence. Of course you have to force fire at the ground rather than at your target.

Also make sure grenades are worthwhile. Landing one of them should count - it shouldn't be just a few more HP at best than just shooting away with your regular gun.

Perhaps not more hp damage but a bigger area of effect so if you do throw one at a clump of enemies they'll all be more likely to take damage. Molotovs that leave a burning pool on the ground which will do damage to anyone who passes through it?

I still would rather pick up a chair and throw it at someone or bash them over the head with it than have lots of munchkin throwing weapons in the game.

 

[Sander]

How about "not all skills need to be equally effective"?

Well, I'd say they should be. It's a case of balance, if you create skills that are superior to other skills, the weaker skills probably won't be used much, which means that a certain aspect of the game is to be avoided, which means it's unbalanced. There was a neat discussion about that a bit back.

 

[Brother None]

Well, I'd say they should be. It's a case of balance, if you create skills that are superior to other skills, the weaker skills probably won't be used much, which means that a certain aspect of the game is to be avoided, which means it's unbalanced. There was a neat discussion about that a bit back.

No doubt it was a very neat discussion, but the conclusion seems a bit lacking.

If all skills need to be equally balanced you need to either unbalance the gameplay badly to open up different, totally illogical paths or cut dead weight skills, which has no benefit over keeping the skills there as little used skills.

Why should all skills be of equal importance and why should we care if people never tag certain skills? It's not important, they're secondary skills, just like there are secondary skills in real life. You're not forced to put points into them, but you can experiment with them and while they will not majorly effect gameplay, being secondary skills, they will give you some small sidepaths to follow.

Problems; none. Cutting them away has no benifit. Balancing the game back to rebalance skills to the extreme means one fucked up game. Saying "balance!" doesn't mean shit when the endresult is heavily unbalanced gameplay.