Todd Howard at NYCC

[Ranne]

What exactly do you think game of the year means? Let me answer that for you: It means best of the year. It doesn't mean "great game". It doesn't even mean "good game".

What exactly do I think Game of The Year means? Who are you, Bill Clinton? For one, with Fallout 3 being branded as one, I think it doesn't really mean anything. What it means in regard to the titles mentioned above? To sum up my views, where GTAIV and Mass Effect offer throughly enjoyable, cinematic experiences that are fresh, original, inventive, intelligent and engaging, King's Bounty offers stale nostalgic experience of a ten-year-old game that is hardly original, creative, or even seriously attractive. For me, the latter game is inferior to the former two in almost every single aspect. I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Brother None]

You judge games based primarily on whether or not they do something new? Nevermind the dubious claim of calling Mass "Jade Empire in space" Effect or GTA "like all the other GTAs but with less freedom" IV innovative, that's a pretty narrow-minded view to begin with. Heh, not to mention the fact that in 2008 no one else had done anything remotely similar to KB:TL for some time, while to greater or lesser success the BioWare and GTA models have been treaded and retreaded. Talk about stale.

Also, I always have to chuckle when people use "cinematic experience" as a positive for gaming. What's next? Claiming books succeed when they offer "cinematic experiences". Talk about moving a media backwards instead of forwards.

 

[Ranne]

You judge games based primarily on whether or not they do something new?

I've been playing games for quite a while. Playing something you've played countless times before is not as exciting as sounds to be.

Also, I always have to chuckle when people use "cinematic experience" as a positive for gaming. What's next? Claiming books succeed when they offer "cinematic experiences". Talk about moving a media backwards instead of forwards.

I use the term "cinematic experience" to denote impressively high production values and artful storytelling. You, on the other hand, are trying to sell a game with "picturesque environments" and "photorealistic character models" as a game that is somehow moving the industry backwards. I can continue the discussion but let's not argue over semantics.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

I've been playing games for quite a while. Playing something you've played countless times before is not as exciting as sounds to be.

True enough but just because you've experienced it before doesn't make the product intrinsically worse. A rerelease or a clone can be the best game of the year even if one didn't get anything new from it. A hypothetical situation would be the first year that Barbie Horse Adventures was released, assume that every other game was either a clone or a remake, does Barbie Horse Adventures then win by default by being the only game to do something knew, even if it's crap? What if a remake of the original Fallout was released this year with updated graphics, sound, and interface? As a side note, the industry disagrees that remakes and clones cannot be GoTY with their almost unanimous choice of Chrono Trigger as DS GoTY.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Note: King's Bounty: The Legend was indeed last year's best game.

King's Bounty was a piece of shit. Any HoMM game is better designed and much more addictive (and not to mention aesthetically pleasing).

2008 was a horrible year for computer games.

Hmm, but then again, it IS a remake of a game that you have to thank for the creation of HOMM. It's HOMM that came from KB, not vise-versa.

With all honesty, KB:TL is a much better-done game than HOMMV (not to mention the atrocity of HOMMIV), KB has varying gameplay and interesting story with nice humour. HOMMV is the game I'd call absolutely uninventive, with stale gameplay and little variety.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Hmm, but then again, it IS a remake of a game that you have to thank for the creation of HOMM. It's HOMM that came from KB, not vise-versa.

Yes... and? The original King's Bounty was made by New World Computing too, not by whoever made the remake.

Haven't played it, though, but to me it sound to be just as crappy as Heroes V, another series fucked by our dear friends the Russians which will probably soon do the same to Disciples 3 and Majesty 2.

not to mention the atrocity of HOMMIV

That's a good one.

 

[wolfsrain]

FeelTheRads, try KB:TL first. You are going to see that there are quite a few differences between Heroes and this game. Someone mentioned the quests are repetitive, but that's just the opinion of someone who never got too far. Sure, you start with fetch quests, but you also have choice quests(you get the path that looks correct to you: you decide who is going to rule the swamp, if you want to give a treasure the pirate who told you about it, if a zombie stays alive or not and so on). There are also some good jokes adressed to the fantasy archetypes (and yes, those are including Tolkien and traditional west-european stories. And did I mentioned the fact that you get wife and kids (and those can boost your stats).

Also a standalone expansion will be released in march/april (King's Bounty: Armored Princess) with a revamped skill tree and better questlines.

And the russian don't release always crappy games: Fantasy Wars, Silent Storm series, Blitzkrieg 1, Rage of Mages are good examples that the russian can get the things right. And no I wouldn't call KBTL the GOTY, but in the light of tht last year releases, it was damn close.

P.S.: and the russian from Nival worked using the scripts given by Ubi. Also the cr..y engine was Ubi's. The russians can do just fine if they are working on their own IPs and are left alone to be creative (should I mention that Akella it's still doing the best pirate games?!) . Il2: Sturmovik it's still a kick... flight sim and it was created by the russians you are saying that are screwing everything. Some of the best mods for Jagged Alliance2 were made by those russians. Wake of Gods mod for HOMM3 (hugely popular) was done by russians. Of course, the russians can get horrible wrong and release shi--y games. But the same goes for any western company. And most of the good games in west rigt now belong to indie companies, not to monoliths like EA, Activision, Micorosft or Bethesda. The russians aren't afraid to experiment, while the aforementioned corporations are just doing graphic tweaks and are adding very few innovations.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Haven't played it, though, but to me it sound to be just as crappy as Heroes V, another series fucked by our dear friends the Russians which will probably soon do the same to Disciples 3 and Majesty 2.

Hush, hush, Disciples 3 will be awesome. Well, if they actually get around to making multiplayer for it anyway.

Still, it's easy to say "they will fuck it up" while ingoring the good games made in the past (Disciples 1 and 2).

And TBH, in the last 5 years, Russia has made more games of the type and genre I appreciate than US, whether it be strategy/rpg games like Disciples 2 or Etherlords II, or adventure games like Turgor or Sublustrum. Just like wolfsrain said, they are more fresh and unique, even if sometimes more buggy and less graphically advanced.


As for KB:TL, I felt like most of the quests were just there to direct you to different areas, so that you don't aimlessly wander around or get lost and killed by high-level monsters. Some others though were fun, like treasure-hunting quests, certain boss fights, or quests that open new shops or abilities. Not to mention that the writing in the game is absolutely hilarious (the Spirits from the Chest of Rage are priceless). Unlike in HOMM, you can control all the different races (although morale bonuses/penalties still apply), and unlike in HOMMV, the choice actually matters. The combat is also much more versatile due to more different creature abilities and hero abilities. I never beat the game myself, I'm not really feeling so much up to it these days, but I got through the dwarven mines and to the whatcha-call-it forest; that's where the game really gets more challenging - I'll probably put it off until summer to try and finish it. It may not be necessarily GOTY, but it's among three best games I played last year, and it's definitely the best non-FPS game of 2008.

That's a good one.

Hmm, maybe it's getting a better reaction in the West. From what I remember, the reaction back home was pretty bad, the only thing that saved the HOMM franchise was the release of the HOMM III Chronicles. Not to mention, most people I know would take HOMM 3.58 over IV any day.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Still, it's easy to say "they will fuck it up" while ingoring the good games made in the past (Disciples 1 and 2).

What? Who ignores what?
Disciples 1 & 2 were made by pretty much the same people, which were not Russians.

Hmm, maybe it's getting a better reaction in the West.

I don't know what reaction it got in the West, I don't even know what reaction it got in the East (from where I am, just as a sidenote), what I know is that you compared Heroes V positively with Heroes IV and that's a load of bullshit, especially since your main gripe with Heroes V was lack of invention while Heroes IV was the most inventive of the series.

Now, I'm not saying Heroes IV was a masterpiece, and it had several stupid decisions, among which the biggest one must be the lack of a random map generator, but a lot of the new things introduced were great: different types of magic, heroes taking parts in combat, the development of heroes and skills, all skills made useful, being more complex overall etc. And not to mention a great story for singleplayer, something that the Heroes series lacked since its beginning.

Not to mention, most people I know would take HOMM 3.58 over IV any day.

Most people are fucking morons and that's a fact.

 

[wolfsrain]

Let's not exaggerate. Heroes 2+3 and Heroes Chronicles had a story that was pretty well tied with the story in Might and Magic 6-8. You can see in Heroes Chornicles, HOMM3: Armageddon Blade and M&M8 how the events that are leading to the situation from HOMM4 unfolds.

I agree on the part that HOMM4 brought quite a bit of innovation, which was necessary to push the serie further. Unfortunately that came with a few poor decisions: restricting the paths you take for your troop upgrade(Disciples anyone?!) and the lack of random map generator. As for stories, the plain HOMM4 was pretty good in at least 4 of the campaigns. But can you say the same about Gathering Storm or Winds of War?

As for Heroes5, I don't care. Finished the campaigns and throw it in some corner of my room into oblivion.

Disciples3, I will adopt the wait and see attitude. Sure some of the screens got me worried, but some are pointing towards more interesting things. Will see. As I've stated before: with the russians either goes horriblee, either they are surpising you with something unexpected good.

 

[Brother None]

I've been playing games for quite a while. Playing something you've played countless times before is not as exciting as sounds to be.

Then I really am curious why you'd like Mass Effect. It's exactly the same game BioWare has been doing since BGII but in a different setting. BioWare hasn't changed their core design in a decade.

I use the term "cinematic experience" to denote impressively high production values and artful storytelling.

Then why not say high production values and artful storytelling? Cinematic experience is used to indicate overly contrived cutscenes and the kind of obsession with being like a film that BioWare has. It's not a positive thing.

You, on the other hand, are trying to sell a game with "picturesque environments" and "photorealistic character models" as a game that is somehow moving the industry backwards.

I am? Hell, I haven't used those terms, so I'm not sure why they're in quotes, but I'm confused. What argument of mine are you referring to? Whichever one it is, I'm fairly sure your counter-argument of "the graphics are great" will not serve to counter-act it.

 

[4too]

Industry Standards

Industry Standards

I use the term "cinematic experience" to denote impressively high production values and artful storytelling. You, on the other hand, are trying to sell a game with "picturesque environments" and "photorealistic character models" as a game that is somehow moving the industry backwards. I can continue the discussion but let's not argue over semantics.

BN getting enough fiber these days?

Gosh, I think I see an attempt at mouth stuffing, now, Ranne, how is that 'playing fare' ?
Oh, this is the internet,
so the imperative of the role as an operative for the reigning status quo takes precedent over common / antiquated forms of courtesy . Drang nach ... Uber Alles!

Wait, wait ... Or are you just throwing up your own straw man? Pardon my assumptions. March on ...

... impressively high production values ...

Pardon me, again, I wish to make a peripheral comment.

When * "high production values" * pertain to fewer bug patches and shallower plot holes,
when * "high production values" * apply to crafting the game and not manipulating the consumer,

then perhaps one could presume that this rudely cobbled together entertainment media might have progressed,
or moved *forward* as some seem to imply is possible.

I anticipate more of the same incremental diddling lagging behind a mean spirited and cynically aggressive marketing onslaught.

If " "the media is the message", then the real game is not in the box, not in the software, the real message is the game to sell the game.








4too

 

[Ranne]

Re: Industry Standards

Cinematic experience is used to indicate overly contrived cutscenes and the kind of obsession with being like a film that BioWare has. It's not a positive thing.

As I said, I hate arguing over trivial semantics. If that is your interpretation of the term, fine, but here's what my dictionary says on the subject, and I think I'm going to stick with it for a while:

cinematic (adj.)
1 : of, relating to, suggestive of, or suitable for motion pictures or the filming of motion pictures (cinematic principles and techniques)
2 : filmed and presented as a motion picture (cinematic fantasies)

What was so cinematic about Mass Effect? I've already written enough about it, so let me save my breath—fingers?—and quote somebody else:

Mass Effect's visuals are excellent. Facial animations are among the best in gaming: Characters move their lips believably with the dialogue, further expressing themselves with subtle tilts of the head or with a slight raise of the eyebrows. Character models are beautifully detailed... Mass Effect still conveys its vision clearly, thanks to meticulous character designs and dramatic set pieces, such as the Citadel itself.
. . .
It's also one of the best-acted games in recent memory. An all-star cast . . . bring Mass Effect's characters to brilliant life. Not once will a drab line delivery or overzealous histrionics get in the way of your immersion. The soundtrack is evocative, with just the right amount of sci-fi shimmering to round out the occasional symphonic swelling.
. . .
All told, Mass Effect is a great game with moments of brilliance and a number of small but significant obstacles that hold it back from reaching its true potential.

BioWare has woven a series of small climaxes into the narrative of Mass Effect. Scratch that. They are by no means small. The story arcs are as powerful as they are well constructed.
. . .
Part of what makes the characters and story telling in Mass Effect so powerful is the excellent visual direction. Take a look at any screenshot or trailer and you can see the level of quality and detail put into the world. The character and alien design is fantastic and original, yet familiar to anyone who loves classic sci-fi cinema.
. . .
The biggest triumph with the cinematic direction is the camera and animation work. Conversations are lip-synced incredibly well and they make use of camera cuts and angles that do wonders towards immersing the player in the experience.
. . .
The cinematic design is nothing short of masterful. This is a game that takes the aspects of film that make cinema so compelling and crosses it with the interactivity of games with unprecedented success.

If you turn to Fallout 3, it is a dumbed down, poorly-implemented sequel to an ingenious and unique role-playing game. Even if you somehow dismiss its innumerable flaws, it will still remain a horrible sequel—and a horrible RPG. Mass Effect, on the other side, has no such baggage. It's an artfully presented FPS/RPG hybrid that stands on its own and doesn't claim to be anything it is not. It may not be a hardcore cRPG you would like it to be, but how does it make it a bad game?

[J]ust because you've experienced it before doesn't make the product intrinsically worse.

Then I really am curious why you'd like Mass Effect. It's exactly the same game BioWare has been doing since BGII but in a different setting.

The same reason I liked GTAIV. Compare Mass Effect with Jade Empire or KoTOR, and you'll see dozens, if not hundreds of new design elements and gameplay improvements that make their supposed successor a vastly superior game. Was there a single innovative feature in King's Bounty? With the exception of calling four additional inventory slots your wife, I can't come up with one. It looks exactly like HoMM V and plays much less engagingly than the earlier HoMM games. Average graphics, average plot, average sounds, average combat, average gameplay. Given your unforgiving views on Mass Effect and Grand Theft Auto 4, what exactly is it about this game that deserves an achievement award? Its overwhelming mediocrity, perhaps?

 

[Davis962]

Wait a minute . . . they made a remake of King's Bounty? The game was friggin' aswesome, I used to play the crap out of that on my Genesis. The music was pretty catchy too, that game was a masterpiece.

 

[Bulderbak]

Hush, hush, Disciples 3 will be awesome. Well, if they actually get around to making multiplayer for it anyway.

Indeed, multiplayer was one of the best things Disciples series had, if they fail at that the game is going to suck.

 

[Ranne]

Wait a minute . . . they made a remake of King's Bounty? The game was friggin' aswesome, I used to play the crap out of that on my Genesis. The music was pretty catchy too, that game was a masterpiece.

http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/939197.asp
As much as I believe that this game is not worthy of a GoTY award, it's still one of the better PC titles of 2008. Don't let my criticisms stop you from taking a look at it.

 

[Brother None]

Re: Industry Standards

What was so cinematic about Mass Effect? I've already written enough about it, so let me save my breath—fingers?—and quote somebody else:

I thought you were talking about "impressively high production values and artful storytelling", but those quotes are mostly about voice acting and face modelling. Bah, Bloodlines did it much better, and we've been regressing since, but even if that weren't a case, it's nothing but detrimental and - as I said originally - setting the industry back to obsessively copy an experience from another medium like that. Mass Effect is a step in exactly the wrong direction.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Hush, hush, Disciples 3 will be awesome. Well, if they actually get around to making multiplayer for it anyway.

Indeed, multiplayer was one of the best things Disciples series had, if they fail at that the game is going to suck.

Well, the word on the Disciples forum is that MP is planned for the next addon (or patch?) after the initial release; the original will have the campaigns and the quests. Apparently, they didn't have enough money to finish it, so they decided to put it off for later.

 

[wolfsrain]

Kinda of expected from Strategy First to do a stunt like that. Since the aforememntioned studio went down (remember the fact that in 2005 it filled for bankrupcy and was bought by a company registered in Bermuda?), there were quite a few conflicts. Strategy First convenientely forgot to pay the rights for Galactic Civilization, Uplink Hacker, Jagged Alliance2: Wildstorm (both versions: the russian and the one from Zuxxez) and a few other .
They've also switched studios for Disciples3 and Jagged Alliance3 without paying the studios that previously worked on those titles.
So stunts like this aren't exactly surprising