Trump is winning

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Throatpunch, May 26, 2016.

  1. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
    Income tax wasnt around until 1913 and America was just fine before it (better off in fact) so no, this system wasnt created on the government stealing some of your paycheck so they can desperatly try to pay off the Fed (again, another great institution brought about by Woodrw Wilson).
    Forced income redistribution IS a "its my money" situation lol. You're taking money I made fair and square so you can fund programs that may not even effect me.
    Welfare programs brought about by FDR and Johnson are relatively new institutions and not an integral part of the "American system"
     
  2. Illuminati Confirmed!

    Illuminati Confirmed! Banned

    553
    Dec 15, 2015
    So if something built around me is built on theft, that makes theft right? Let alone the fact that society was not built on social services.
    10znle.jpg
     
  3. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Basically, I just call bullshit on the whole entitlement issue. It's not your money. You didn't print it up. You don't determine it's value. You use it as a medium of exchange as a citizen of a nation you owe obligations to as long as you recognize its sovereignty.

    In short, you're the thief and parasite if you don't pay taxes.
     
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  4. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
    It is our money, we worked for it. The government automatically taking a chunk out of your wages when you get paid for goods or services was never the standard in this country for a very long time. Capitalism was fine without it, America was fine without it and the people were fine without it. I'm not against all taxes at all but income tax is criminal.
     
  5. Illuminati Confirmed!

    Illuminati Confirmed! Banned

    553
    Dec 15, 2015
    It is, because I own the consequences of my own actions (i.e. my labor) and I agreed to trade a certain amount of said labor for a certain amount of said money. So by saying that it isn't my money, what you're saying is that I'm not responsible for the consequences of my own actions.
    Because it's illegal... you do know that paper money was first invented by private banks, and unlike today, no one was coerced into using it.
    For all the central planning and machinations of the fed, it's ultimately the market that determines the value of money. The value of money is different for each individual.
    Which would be perfectly fine if recognizing its sovereignty was something I did willingly. But since it's not, I'm not morally responsible to pay the costs of it.

    So, the consequences of my voluntary actions are not mine to keep, but the consequences of keeping them are... that's not how logic works.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
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  6. whirlingdervish

    whirlingdervish Brahmin Cavalry Commander

    Jul 3, 2007
    The "we worked for it" angle is usually only effective if you ignore that variety of factors that the government pays for, which enabled you to "work for it" in the way that you did. In some cases, they literally bought the ground on which you worked with the blood of their citizenry or for actual money from the nation's coffers in something like the Louisiana Purchase.

    The economic stability that creates business investment, the safety of people and property that is created by defense/executive branch spending and our system of laws, public infrastructure like highways and even things like public education, all combine to form the ecosystem in which you can have a job, own things, and be paid a wage, all while not belonging to someone else like property and being educated enough to not just be a pair of hands.

    All of those are paid for by our taxes in a myriad of ways.

    This is what Obama was referring to when he famously said "you didn't build that" and then got to hear bullshit for months about it. It's not an untrue statement, but nobody likes to pay the piper.
     
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  7. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Heh. Illuminati "worked for it". Tell me, how old are you again? How many jobs where you have to pay income taxes on have you worked in your life?
     
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  8. GonZo_626

    GonZo_626 Well Shit!

    496
    Jul 29, 2016
    Yes this is what taxes are for, but the main complaint is that the government goes above and beyond the basics. Roads, defense, law and order, basic planning, and basic education are all things the any gov should do. Its beyond those that people start to have problems with. You see that in the discussion of education right here. A basic education would be high school in my opinion, and the gov supplies this. Some people have the idea that a higher level of basic education is needed and that is the problem. To do basic jobs you only need high school or less, anything above this is specialized and not basic. A engineer can really only do a few jobs, a scientist can only do some, and all of them need more on the job training after leaving school.

    Why should my taxes pay for someone's specialized education? Especially when that person could go on to end up making more money then me and can better afford there own education in the end? I do bet that most of the people arguing for free education are not doing a science, engineering, or tech degree (all high levels of being hired, all high levels of pay) but more likely an arts type degree where they pissed away 2-4 years in school and end up working a Starbucks. Why should I pay for their useless education?

    I have been working for 15 years of my life in a engineering field and have paid a fuck ton in taxes. I make an almost 6 figure salary(now), have had a higher paying job before, and I don't have a fancy degree. Hard work can still get you far.
     
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  9. Illuminati Confirmed!

    Illuminati Confirmed! Banned

    553
    Dec 15, 2015
    2016-03-20-taxation.jpg
    Posts like this which try to point out my "privilege", besides being non-arguments which contribute nothing to the discussion, just make you seem envious as fuck.
     
  10. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Envious? Bruh, I'm basically as privileged as one can be without being born to millionaires. Life was and is piss-easy for me, but I know that I'm not the most representative person. Which is why I don't mind paying taxes as these help others who didn't have it this easy, and it keeps our infrastructure going.
    As for contributing anything to the discussion, why should I? It's pointless discussing anything with you, so I'd rather point out that you really don't know shit about life because you haven't actually lived yet.
     
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  11. SarcasticGoodGuy

    SarcasticGoodGuy *R O T T E N*

    Aug 31, 2016
    @Vergil how will your country provide you with public services without taxes? Didn't realise you were an anarchistic idealist.
     
  12. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
    Didnt know you were illiterate.
    Also theres a lot of services that the government that I would prefer be returned to the private sector.
     
  13. Throatpunch

    Throatpunch Banned

    Apr 14, 2016
    ugh you must be so punchable in real life.
     
  14. Illuminati Confirmed!

    Illuminati Confirmed! Banned

    553
    Dec 15, 2015
    Why do you trust the government to use your money to help people who you think need helping more efficiently than you would do yourself?
    Subjective experiences change the way logic works? That's good to know.
     
  15. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Because I don't really have the time or knowledge to help people individually? Sure, I could just give a third of my paycheck to a random homeless guy, but I can't go and make sure he actually goes out to search for a job, or get him into programs to help him learn various skills. Not to mention that if I had to actively go out and spend my money on helping people, well, I probably wouldn't do it. Not that I need it, I'm already making way more money than I spend, but deep down I and so many others are still lazy and greedy, so to be honest I probably wouldn't give any money away if I didn't have to, even though I don't need it. You could privatize all the welfare and infrastructure and I could give a third of my paycheck to private charity organizations and construction companies, but these are maximizing their profits, so less of my money would go into help and roads and more into the pockets of people even greedier than me.
    Experiences give you insight to the way the logic actually works, as it's usually a bit more complex. Every teenager thinks he's smart and has it all figured out. Until they grow up and learn.
     
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  16. SarcasticGoodGuy

    SarcasticGoodGuy *R O T T E N*

    Aug 31, 2016
    ...

    You were talking about income tax, yes. But that still goes towards the public sector, at least in my country. Where are you from that you feel income tax should be cut? I'm genuinely curious.
     
  17. Illuminati Confirmed!

    Illuminati Confirmed! Banned

    553
    Dec 15, 2015
    So theft is okay because it allows you to lay claim to virtue without actually doing anything virtuous that requires effort.

    Say what you will about private charity organizations and construction companies, they at least wouldn't (and couldn't) use your money as collateral on debts that your children will have to pay off.

    Now, now, just because I'm smarter than you doesn't mean that I think I know everything.
     
  18. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
    America. You do know income tax isnt the only taxes we pay right? We're already paying service tax and what not. The government wouldnt and really doesnt need income tax if it wasnt
    A: corrupt
    B: Incompetant
    C: Trying to sustain the massive welfare state
    America and many other countries did just fine without it.
     
  19. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    I'm not claiming any virtue, how the hell did you get that from what I wrote? I'm willing to pay taxes because I'm explicitly not a virtuous person. Taxes keep the infrastructure going and help people without having to rely on me remembering to be a good person.
    Yeah, they will instead put you in debt directly by monopolizing basic needs.

    Top kek.
     
  20. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    A hundred years ago, when political mentalities were so far off from where we're at today that it might as well be in another reality altogether. Those were the times where the mentally handicaped were shoved into asylums to die, prisons were barely livable, poor people died in droves and/or eked out miserable lives in rubber baron owned factories or were at the mercy of any drought or famine in the countryside, and women were told to shut up, stay in the kitchen and make moar babies if they knew what was good for them.

    Yeah, good ol' America. Why did you guys, and the world, move on from this I'll never know. Fuck all these people and their problems, some other people now have to pay a different kind of tax than they did previously. The horror, nay, the humanity! Poor them. Poor victims of the system.

    It's also funny you mention incompetence and corruption as unique to today's government, when in ye good old times the kind of stuff that has people ripping their shirts off (the Clinton Foundation, to use one example) was not only commonplace, but an accepted parts of politics. Even guys like Lincoln transparently paid for Congress's votes, for pete's sake.

    And before you start, yes I pay income tax. I'm Canadian, so in fact I pay a fucking shitload of it compared to most americans. And you know what? I'm OK with that. Taxes keep my society's infrastructure (such it is, sometimes) running. Taxes kept my father in relatively good health as he died of cancer. Taxes helped me while I was in a down in between jobs, and helped keep my mother afloat financially as she underwent a depression. It pays for my autistic brother's basic needs, as I pay his luxuries. It's kept the social shelter where I (briefly) worked alive. It's done a ton of good for many, many people I've met. Could charities take over some of that? Sure. All of that? Not in a million years.

    So excuse me if I don't shed a tear because some guy who makes 300 000$ needs to give a portion of that to the state, and buy himself a new Audi instead of a Ferrari this year.
     
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