Trump is winning

[Vergil]

Income tax wasnt around until 1913 and America was just fine before it (better off in fact) so no, this system wasnt created on the government stealing some of your paycheck so they can desperatly try to pay off the Fed (again, another great institution brought about by Woodrw Wilson).
Forced income redistribution IS a "its my money" situation lol. You're taking money I made fair and square so you can fund programs that may not even effect me.
Welfare programs brought about by FDR and Johnson are relatively new institutions and not an integral part of the "American system"

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

Speaking as a rich person, wealth is made because of the American system allowing it to be made and helping generate capital. That's why taxes exist. Making sure more people have opportunities for wealth and get their fair share of it isn't some weird, "But that's MYYYYYY money" situation.

I remember college when I had a good friend who, I swear, literally could not comprehend the idea of taxes as anything but theft because his worldview was that anything he received in a paycheck was his despite living in a society built up around social services and a system which depended on them.

So if something built around me is built on theft, that makes theft right? Let alone the fact that society was not built on social services.

 

[CT Phipps]

So if something built around me is built on theft, that makes theft right? Let alone the fact that society was not built on social services.

Basically, I just call bullshit on the whole entitlement issue. It's not your money. You didn't print it up. You don't determine it's value. You use it as a medium of exchange as a citizen of a nation you owe obligations to as long as you recognize its sovereignty.

In short, you're the thief and parasite if you don't pay taxes.

 

[Vergil]

Basically, I just call bullshit on the whole entitlement issue. It's not your money. You didn't print it up. You don't determine it's value. You use it as a medium of exchange as a citizen of a nation you owe obligations to as long as you recognize its sovereignty.

In short, you're the thief and parasite if you don't pay taxes.

It is our money, we worked for it. The government automatically taking a chunk out of your wages when you get paid for goods or services was never the standard in this country for a very long time. Capitalism was fine without it, America was fine without it and the people were fine without it. I'm not against all taxes at all but income tax is criminal.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

Basically, I just call bullshit on the whole entitlement issue. It's not your money.

It is, because I own the consequences of my own actions (i.e. my labor) and I agreed to trade a certain amount of said labor for a certain amount of said money. So by saying that it isn't my money, what you're saying is that I'm not responsible for the consequences of my own actions.

You didn't print it up.

Because it's illegal... you do know that paper money was first invented by private banks, and unlike today, no one was coerced into using it.

You don't determine it's value.

For all the central planning and machinations of the fed, it's ultimately the market that determines the value of money. The value of money is different for each individual.

You use it as a medium of exchange as a citizen of a nation you owe obligations to as long as you recognize its sovereignty.

Which would be perfectly fine if recognizing its sovereignty was something I did willingly. But since it's not, I'm not morally responsible to pay the costs of it.

In short, you're the thief and parasite if you don't pay taxes.

So, the consequences of my voluntary actions are not mine to keep, but the consequences of keeping them are... that's not how logic works.

 

[whirlingdervish]

The "we worked for it" angle is usually only effective if you ignore that variety of factors that the government pays for, which enabled you to "work for it" in the way that you did. In some cases, they literally bought the ground on which you worked with the blood of their citizenry or for actual money from the nation's coffers in something like the Louisiana Purchase.

The economic stability that creates business investment, the safety of people and property that is created by defense/executive branch spending and our system of laws, public infrastructure like highways and even things like public education, all combine to form the ecosystem in which you can have a job, own things, and be paid a wage, all while not belonging to someone else like property and being educated enough to not just be a pair of hands.

All of those are paid for by our taxes in a myriad of ways.

This is what Obama was referring to when he famously said "you didn't build that" and then got to hear bullshit for months about it. It's not an untrue statement, but nobody likes to pay the piper.

 

[Hassknecht]

Heh. Illuminati "worked for it". Tell me, how old are you again? How many jobs where you have to pay income taxes on have you worked in your life?

 

[GonZo_626]

The "we worked for it" angle is usually only effective if you ignore that variety of factors that the government pays for, which enabled you to "work for it" in the way that you did. In some cases, they literally bought the ground on which you worked with the blood of their citizenry or for actual money from the nation's coffers in something like the Louisiana Purchase.

The economic stability that creates business investment, the safety of people and property that is created by defense/executive branch spending and our system of laws, public infrastructure like highways and even things like public education, all combine to form the ecosystem in which you can have a job, own things, and be paid a wage, all while not belonging to someone else like property and being educated enough to not just be a pair of hands.

All of those are paid for by our taxes in a myriad of ways.

This is what Obama was referring to when he famously said "you didn't build that" and then got to hear bullshit for months about it. It's not an untrue statement, but nobody likes to pay the piper.

Yes this is what taxes are for, but the main complaint is that the government goes above and beyond the basics. Roads, defense, law and order, basic planning, and basic education are all things the any gov should do. Its beyond those that people start to have problems with. You see that in the discussion of education right here. A basic education would be high school in my opinion, and the gov supplies this. Some people have the idea that a higher level of basic education is needed and that is the problem. To do basic jobs you only need high school or less, anything above this is specialized and not basic. A engineer can really only do a few jobs, a scientist can only do some, and all of them need more on the job training after leaving school.

Why should my taxes pay for someone's specialized education? Especially when that person could go on to end up making more money then me and can better afford there own education in the end? I do bet that most of the people arguing for free education are not doing a science, engineering, or tech degree (all high levels of being hired, all high levels of pay) but more likely an arts type degree where they pissed away 2-4 years in school and end up working a Starbucks. Why should I pay for their useless education?

Heh. Illuminati "worked for it". Tell me, how old are you again? How many jobs where you have to pay income taxes on have you worked in your life?

I have been working for 15 years of my life in a engineering field and have paid a fuck ton in taxes. I make an almost 6 figure salary(now), have had a higher paying job before, and I don't have a fancy degree. Hard work can still get you far.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

The "we worked for it" angle is usually only effective if you ignore that variety of factors that the government pays for, which enabled you to "work for it" in the way that you did. In some cases, they literally bought the ground on which you worked with the blood of their citizenry or for actual money from the nation's coffers in something like the Louisiana Purchase.

The economic stability that creates business investment, the safety of people and property that is created by defense/executive branch spending and our system of laws, public infrastructure like highways and even things like public education, all combine to form the ecosystem in which you can have a job, own things, and be paid a wage, all while not belonging to someone else like property and being educated enough to not just be a pair of hands.

All of those are paid for by our taxes in a myriad of ways.

This is what Obama was referring to when he famously said "you didn't build that" and then got to hear bullshit for months about it. It's not an untrue statement, but nobody likes to pay the piper.

Heh. Illuminati "worked for it". Tell me, how old are you again? How many jobs where you have to pay income taxes on have you worked in your life?

Posts like this which try to point out my "privilege", besides being non-arguments which contribute nothing to the discussion, just make you seem envious as fuck.

 

[Hassknecht]

Posts like this which try to point out my "privilege", besides being non-arguments which contribute nothing to the discussion, just make you seem envious as fuck.

Envious? Bruh, I'm basically as privileged as one can be without being born to millionaires. Life was and is piss-easy for me, but I know that I'm not the most representative person. Which is why I don't mind paying taxes as these help others who didn't have it this easy, and it keeps our infrastructure going.
As for contributing anything to the discussion, why should I? It's pointless discussing anything with you, so I'd rather point out that you really don't know shit about life because you haven't actually lived yet.

 

[SarcasticGoodGuy]

@Vergil how will your country provide you with public services without taxes? Didn't realise you were an anarchistic idealist.

 

[Vergil]

@Vergil how will your country provide you with public services without taxes? Didn't realise you were an anarchistic idealist.

Didnt know you were illiterate.

I'm not against all taxes at all but income tax is criminal.

Also theres a lot of services that the government that I would prefer be returned to the private sector.

 

[Throatpunch]

View attachment 6190

Posts like this which try to point out my "privilege", besides being non-arguments which contribute nothing to the discussion, just make you seem envious as fuck.

ugh you must be so punchable in real life.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

Envious? Bruh, I'm basically as privileged as one can be without being born to millionaires. Life was and is piss-easy for me, but I know that I'm not the most representative person. Which is why I don't mind paying taxes as these help others who didn't have it this easy, and it keeps our infrastructure going.

Why do you trust the government to use your money to help people who you think need helping more efficiently than you would do yourself?

As for contributing anything to the discussion, why should I? It's pointless discussing anything with you, so I'd rather point out that you really don't know shit about life because you haven't actually lived yet.

Subjective experiences change the way logic works? That's good to know.

 

[Hassknecht]

Why do you trust the government to use your money to help people who you think need helping more efficiently than you would do yourself?

Because I don't really have the time or knowledge to help people individually? Sure, I could just give a third of my paycheck to a random homeless guy, but I can't go and make sure he actually goes out to search for a job, or get him into programs to help him learn various skills. Not to mention that if I had to actively go out and spend my money on helping people, well, I probably wouldn't do it. Not that I need it, I'm already making way more money than I spend, but deep down I and so many others are still lazy and greedy, so to be honest I probably wouldn't give any money away if I didn't have to, even though I don't need it. You could privatize all the welfare and infrastructure and I could give a third of my paycheck to private charity organizations and construction companies, but these are maximizing their profits, so less of my money would go into help and roads and more into the pockets of people even greedier than me.

Subjective experiences change the way logic works? That's good to know.

Experiences give you insight to the way the logic actually works, as it's usually a bit more complex. Every teenager thinks he's smart and has it all figured out. Until they grow up and learn.

 

[SarcasticGoodGuy]

Didnt know you were illiterate.

...

You were talking about income tax, yes. But that still goes towards the public sector, at least in my country. Where are you from that you feel income tax should be cut? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

Because I don't really have the time or knowledge to help people individually? Sure, I could just give a third of my paycheck to a random homeless guy, but I can't go and make sure he actually goes out to search for a job, or get him into programs to help him learn various skills. Not to mention that if I had to actively go out and spend my money on helping people, well, I probably wouldn't do it. Not that I need it, I'm already making way more money than I spend, but deep down I and so many others are still lazy and greedy, so to be honest I probably wouldn't give any money away if I didn't have to, even though I don't need it. You could privatize all the welfare and infrastructure and I could give a third of my paycheck to private charity organizations and construction companies, but these are maximizing their profits, so less of my money would go into help and roads and more into the pockets of people even greedier than me.

So theft is okay because it allows you to lay claim to virtue without actually doing anything virtuous that requires effort.

Say what you will about private charity organizations and construction companies, they at least wouldn't (and couldn't) use your money as collateral on debts that your children will have to pay off.

Experiences give you insight to the way the logic actually works, as it's usually a bit more complex. Every teenager thinks he's smart and has it all figured out. Until they grow up and learn.

Now, now, just because I'm smarter than you doesn't mean that I think I know everything.

 

[Vergil]

...

You were talking about income tax, yes. But that still goes towards the public sector, at least in my country. Where are you from that you feel income tax should be cut? I'm genuinely curious.

America. You do know income tax isnt the only taxes we pay right? We're already paying service tax and what not. The government wouldnt and really doesnt need income tax if it wasnt
A: corrupt
B: Incompetant
C: Trying to sustain the massive welfare state
America and many other countries did just fine without it.

 

[Hassknecht]

So theft is okay because it allows you to lay claim to virtue without actually doing anything virtuous that requires effort.

I'm not claiming any virtue, how the hell did you get that from what I wrote? I'm willing to pay taxes because I'm explicitly not a virtuous person. Taxes keep the infrastructure going and help people without having to rely on me remembering to be a good person.

Say what you will about private charity organizations and construction companies, they at least wouldn't (and couldn't) use your money as collateral on debts that your children will have to pay off.

Yeah, they will instead put you in debt directly by monopolizing basic needs.

Now, now, just because I'm smarter than you doesn't mean that I think I know everything.

Top kek.

 

[Ilosar]

America. You do know income tax isnt the only taxes we pay right? We're already paying service tax and what not. The government wouldnt and really doesnt need income tax if it wasnt
A: corrupt
B: Incompetant
C: Trying to sustain the massive welfare state
America and many other countries did just fine without it.

A hundred years ago, when political mentalities were so far off from where we're at today that it might as well be in another reality altogether. Those were the times where the mentally handicaped were shoved into asylums to die, prisons were barely livable, poor people died in droves and/or eked out miserable lives in rubber baron owned factories or were at the mercy of any drought or famine in the countryside, and women were told to shut up, stay in the kitchen and make moar babies if they knew what was good for them.

Yeah, good ol' America. Why did you guys, and the world, move on from this I'll never know. Fuck all these people and their problems, some other people now have to pay a different kind of tax than they did previously. The horror, nay, the humanity! Poor them. Poor victims of the system.

It's also funny you mention incompetence and corruption as unique to today's government, when in ye good old times the kind of stuff that has people ripping their shirts off (the Clinton Foundation, to use one example) was not only commonplace, but an accepted parts of politics. Even guys like Lincoln transparently paid for Congress's votes, for pete's sake.

And before you start, yes I pay income tax. I'm Canadian, so in fact I pay a fucking shitload of it compared to most americans. And you know what? I'm OK with that. Taxes keep my society's infrastructure (such it is, sometimes) running. Taxes kept my father in relatively good health as he died of cancer. Taxes helped me while I was in a down in between jobs, and helped keep my mother afloat financially as she underwent a depression. It pays for my autistic brother's basic needs, as I pay his luxuries. It's kept the social shelter where I (briefly) worked alive. It's done a ton of good for many, many people I've met. Could charities take over some of that? Sure. All of that? Not in a million years.

So excuse me if I don't shed a tear because some guy who makes 300 000$ needs to give a portion of that to the state, and buy himself a new Audi instead of a Ferrari this year.