Turkey downs Russian warplane in Syria.

[cronicler]

At a temp setup right now with not much opportunity to post a detailed response but I'll try to piece together a coherent info blurb from other bits I have posted yesterday (or has it been 2 days? a wee bit busy RL) night.

Okay, some dirty laundry time; Short synopsis;

My glorious Neo-Sultan has been keeping funding his suppression campaign as well as the overall economical solvency by "smuggling" oil from ISIS/DAES via companies of his trusted inner circle aka "relatives"... Remember those 500 trucks destroyed a few days ago by the Russians??
Of course this led to the headless chicken armed forces being ordered to keep Russians away from northern Syria, as without that cash (talking about up to 100mil a week* profits here) Turkish "healthy and robust" economy will crumble under a week. and many honest power brokers who were bought will go "free" again...
Can't have that


*Don't quote me on the exact numbers, I'm not 100% sure, it might also be 10mil/day or week or something... can't remember the figures offhand right now (not on my comp / house, so no bookmarks to check.)



On TR Mil;
it has been completely gutted in the last decade. Most of the army "strategic" staff have been jailed under flimsy pretexts, Aegean branch (and the Navy) has been decimated (of professional officers) and filled with political brainless lapdogs, AF has been bleeding experienced pilots and ground crew by arterial sprays, professional army troops have been treated with fighting dog training methods, Gendarme have been filled with brown/black shirts...

When it is good (certain company sized outfits that couldn't be meddled with due to various reasons), TRArmed forces is really really good but when it is bad... let's just say task force smith consisted of steel eyed professionals...


Russians openly declared their intentions and targets, Turkey should have been letting Russians use a limited & heavily controlled corridor over Hatay but as I mentioned above, the current crop of rulers can't do that because the moment Russia throttles the DAESH financial routes, the artificial life support of Turkish economy will stop and that will/might lead to a regime change...Erdogan cannot, under any circumstances risk that or he will be completely "destroyed", his and his broods financial assets seized and tried for treason... The plane in question did indeed violate airspace after being warned, a 17 second incursion I think.

BN; The repeated warnings does shift the fault to the Russian plane but to be frank that's pure legalese b.s. but International Relations is 90% that...
As far as I know (so, salt please people), It was scattered over an area whose closest point is about 900m-1km from the border and farthest is at about 4km... meaning both sides are telling the "truth"...

The missile was probably launched either "just before" or "just as" the border crossing began and hit as it was "just" entering the Syrian side again...


EDIT: Whelp... It seems that during the NATO emergency meeting today, headless chicken was unable to prove (read; show any proof that could stand up to scrutiny) that there had been a violation... So the future is indeed looking bright! Megaton Megaton Bright!
(Or realistically, the complete reverse of "cold and dark" as Russia is the main natural gas provider and we are very dependent on them for energy...)








BTW, this is the New Turkish Police, outside the cities;

http://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/video/...l_harekat_polisleri_sanki_cihata_gidiyor.html


most of whose force has been filled with "Sturmabteilung" grade fanatical, blind and uneducated thugs in the last decade.





At a rough guesstimate, if you pull up a map of last Turkish elections and look at AKP vote percentages, it will give you a rough idea (-5 to -15 on their percentages) of the Jihadi support in TR.

 

[kkktnxbye]

...i try my best not to spread false information...

Well...you need to try better:
1) No evidence that they shot down the drone of russian air forces. Turkish premier said that they do not know who own that drone.The US representatives also did not say that the drone belonged to raf. Siria itself use drones at that region and us backed opposition forces as well.
2) You showing the pictures of "public opinion" as a protesting people on the squares and calling Ru presedent as a "bigger asshole".
Unfortunatelly the president of Russia is absolute legit. Almost all the political opposition in Russia is artifical and live on budget money. 90% of people who go on demonstrations are simple paid for that. It's common in Russia, it's just an additional money. I did the same when I was a student and my friend organized such a demonstrations for different parties. So I know the kitchen from inside.
And yes the Ru presedent is an asshole but NOT for the foreign politic he does. But for the constant ripping off his own people by the government.
Your motive to be afraid is understandable but ridiculous.Your country does not have Ru navi bases - there no threat to loose black sea fleet. Your country does not owe money to Ru for gas.There is no mass murder\rights violations of ru speaking people as well.
As for this particular incident - it's obviously planned imho. The result of the air bombing of isis oil convoys which goes to Turkey? Turkey got down the raf bomber?Siriously not expectable? The result of starting raf operation on isis? Ru tourist plane in Egypt got down by bomb?Siriously not expectable?
What is interesting - how Ru will play that card given by Turkey

 

[Mr.Stalin]

If you say so... ehm... Mr.Stalin, it's not like i have witnessed this myself for over two years now, where people with proxy ip's (south africa, england, china etc.) are flooding the forums (very prevelent in my country)

OK! I will assume you belong to the US army of trolls, which finances the CIA.
No wonder you started to talk about them))))

The Guardian writes that the US Army will soon be equipped with special software, focused on conducting a pro-US propaganda through various social networks and blogs. This technology will make it possible to conduct secret blogger activity on foreign websites.

 

[SuAside]

It does not matter that Turkey warned the jet "at least 10 times" as both Turkey and the USA seem to claim.

And that is the biggest bull in this incident, because a fighter jet moving at 900km/h would have crossed that in what, 12 seconds? How can they warn 10 times in 12 seconds?

For the record, I agree with all you said 100%; just pointing how absurd the turkish claim is.

The Turkish military sources now speak of 17 seconds in Turkish airspace.
The plane was flying fairly slow, according to the current sources. It's possible they thought it was a drone & wanted to make a statement.

The warnings (now posted on amateur radio sites) started before it entered Turkish airspace.

The Turks have also shot down 2-3 Syrian army airplanes in the region (some of which did not even enter Turkish airspace).
Of course, since Assad is being said to be a bad guy in Western press, they barely covered these incidents.

As an anecdote, it's funny to note that the Turkish airforce has violated Greek air space without approval over 2000 times in the past year. And that Turkey is the only NATO country to have shot down a manned Russian airplane. And that Turkey is the only NATO country to have ever attacked another NATO member (Greek Cyprus).

The official map of the route of flight of the Su-24m from the Russian Air Force.

The drawing is actually slightly different from the official russian radar plots. The actual flight path was a little more complex.

 

[Mr.Stalin]

Funny People

 

[kkktnxbye]

1) No evidence that they shot down the drone of russian air forces. Turkish premier said that they do not know who own that drone.The US representatives also did not say that the drone belonged to raf. Siria itself use drones at that region and us backed opposition forces as well.

So be it, even if it was syrian, the part where turkey warned them about airspace violations still stands, so this did not come out of the blue. Not that i support their actions in this particular instance, but russia should have known this was a possibility and did nothing to prevent this loss of a pilot and an airplane.

I just pointed that you claimed some not proved statements as a facts.

2) You showing the pictures of "public opinion" as a protesting people on the squares and calling Ru presedent as a "bigger asshole".
Unfortunatelly the president of Russia is absolute legit. Almost all the political opposition in Russia is artifical and live on budget money. 90% of people who go on demonstrations are simple paid for that. It's common in Russia, it's just an additional money. I did the same when I was a student and my friend organized such a demonstrations for different parties. So I know the kitchen from inside.

I did not make that connection, you did. That picture was about him caring about public opinion, the asshole/threat part is for being involved in 4 wars (or as you say conflicts) during his presidency.

That's the point I tried to explain - there is no such anti-government public opinion like you showed on the picture. 4 wars? It is ridicoulus if you count US\nato involved conflicts for the same period. Let's count Ru conflicts: 2nd Chechnya - it's the conflict against terrorist groups for Ru integrity. 5 day war in South Ossetia - that's Georgia's mistake to militarily invade Ossetia. Crimea one-night annoxation (without a single shot) - 80% of population are Russians, was gifted to Ukraine in 1954. Calling an air strikes on isis in Siria as a "war" - hmmm....sure!with international terrorism btw.

But aside from that, you are talking in very general terms, can you clarify: What political opposition are you talking about? Communist Party? Zhirnovskis LDPR? A Just Russia? And what demonstrations were you involved with? Were they approved and complied with official federal regulations?

LDPR was the one of them, the others I dont remember - it was 14-15 years ago. More than ten demonstrations for sure. Some of them were approved some of them not. That's really offtopic.

And yes the Ru presedent is an asshole but NOT for the foreign politic he does. But for the constant ripping off his own people by the government.

What do you mean? I did not understand the last sentence.

I mean that the internal politic of last 5-7 years is terrible. More taxes less social care&education.

Your motive to be afraid is understandable but ridiculous.Your country does not have Ru navi bases - there no threat to loose black sea fleet. Your country does not owe money to Ru for gas.There is no mass murder\rights violations of ru speaking people as well.

So russia invades everyone who owes money? Well, i'm not sure we do, but i live ~200 km from a bunch of russian military naval and air bases with over 250 tanks, Iskander-M, S-400, 3 submarines, 55 warships and a bunch of bombers and fighters. And who knows when we will start killing innocent russian people, there might be a genocide near by:



As for my city, there is a good ammount of russians here (about 25%), they might need to be freed from oppression.

I bet any country will defend it's financial interests(debts return)\property(black sea bases and fleet). Surely only the debts could not be a reason to annex anything. Regarding russians in Latvia (your link) - I dont think that your country will support such a barbaric methods like moving russians to a camps. And even if we imagine this there will be no response from Ru like it was with Crimea.

As for this particular incident - it's obviously planned imho. The result of the air bombing of isis oil convoys which goes to Turkey? Turkey got down the raf bomber?Siriously not expectable? The result of starting raf operation on isis? Ru tourist plane in Egypt got down by bomb?Siriously not expectable?
What is interesting - how Ru will play that card given by Turkey

Was this directed at me?

No. That's just my opinion on the case.

OK! I will assume you belong to the US army of trolls, which finances the CIA.
No wonder you started to talk about them))))

The Guardian writes that the US Army will soon be equipped with special software, focused on conducting a pro-US propaganda through various social networks and blogs. This technology will make it possible to conduct secret blogger activity on foreign websites.

The only thing missing in my devious plots is the pro-us propaganda.

*answered

 

[kkktnxbye]

Dont you think I can tell about russian public opinion better if I live here? Putin's rating is 87%. Tell me more about bloody repressions of the former kgb agent
The first 3 were started by russia and 2 are being escalated by russia till today in eastern ukraine (by providing the rebels with arms and army support) and georgia (by continuously claiming georgian lands).
That's a lie. If we are talking about 2nd Chechnya (btw it was started during Eltsin's presidency not Putin's) - the counter-terrorist operation was started after massive terrorist invasion in Dagestan republic 7th May 1999. After their defeat they have retreated to Chechnya and blew up several civil buildings (in Moscow, Volgodonsk, Buinaksk). The same for Ossetia - 8th August 2008 Georgia started their massive ground operation in Tskhinvali. The same for the other conflicts.
As for the civil casualties in Syria - it's pointless to deny the obvious fact, there is no air\artillery strikes possible without civil casualties. But what was the result of nato presence in Syria? It's pointless to explain if you do not understand what is going on on the middle east for the last 25 years.

About chinese illigal immigrants - wrong again. We have them but not in far east but in Syberia. Syberia has never been under Chinese rule or have Chinese military bases. But if in the far future we will have the chinese majority in Syberia - surely they will have a right to do a referendum and join to China.

You are simply distorting my words - I claimed that not ALL of demonstrants are paid but the majority of them. And I was participated in the demonstrations not only for one party like you pointing. As for "ages ago" - there is no changes yet in Ru political structure. Think a little - who will willingly go to the demonstration if the rating of president is 87%? As the history shows there is only sirious crysis(hunger) can force the russians go to the demonstrations.

Surely I dont believe what were written in the article. But nevertheless if it's really were almost 2k of idiots in Latvia or not - Russia will never invade a country just to defend russian-speaking minority. Do your really think that russian government care about foreign ru-speakers in baltic countries?
The bullshit is spreading not less from western media than in Ru by our russian media. I prefer to operate with the facts and logic. We have photo and video footages nowadays - so we can check the info from the both sides.

 

[Deleted member 53669]

This guy is an obvious fascist.

 

[Dr Fallout]

While I'm not accusing AskWazzup as an American who spreads their propaganda (that's bullshit and stupid) but keep in mind that the West has a great media system. When Russia arrests Pussy Riot for committing a crime the world goes ant-Russia, yet America happily arrests thousands of people who are in the Occupy Wall Street rallies. Russia makes bases near Ukraine and suddenly they're evil, while America makes bases pretty much everywhere and they're fine.

 

[TheChosen1]

but i try my best not to spread false information and do not promote any side as some altruistic power

This is nothing compared to invading a sovereign country and shooting down a pasanger plane of 296 civilians.... Why would this escalate anything?

 

[Crni Vuk]

Is it again time to bash the Russian bear? I guess their world domination plot needs our attention again. Seriously. Why have they placed their nation so close to our military bases. They should have known better.

 

[AskWazzup]

Is it again time to bash the Russian bear? I guess their world domination plot needs our attention again. Seriously. Why have they placed their nation so close to our military bases. They should have known better.

Well somebody has to do it, the usa bashing part here is already occupied, so i jumped to the other bus. But seriously, i guess it's my fault of derailing this thread, so, sorry? Won't do it again?

 

[kkktnxbye]

1. About 90% - yes, it's my personal guess, that's what I've seen 14 years ago, and I communicate with people around (colleagues, relatives, friends). Not much changed yet.
2. "It is interesting that all of those conflicts mysteriously start after russian influence in the region starts to decrease" - are you sane? We are talking about terrorists, who did a shoking crimes. If you appeal to Ossetia conflict - I'll repeat again, nobody ask Georgia go to the military operation, there is always a diplomatic solution.
The only controversial conflict is on Ukrain. If you don't understand what consequence waited for ru naval base you can look to the history. Especially that part "what Ukraine government did with the most of military aviation and rockets, (aviation carriers as well) on it's territory just after USSR dissolved under US control". Why to support the Eastern Ukraine? Obviously to have something to negotiate the Crimea. Anyway - who asked Ukraine government did a massive military operations espesially in civil areas? Who made the situation with the locals so tensioned? Ru government did nothing for the revolution in Kiev (mass protests and goverment retirement), that's what the west does. Surely the support of Eastern Ukraine was a controversial step but the only way to save a black sea fleet and base.
About anti-baltics propoganda. I dont know where you see a lot of this stuff in Russia. It was a couple of mentions in some internet new sites some time ago, but nothing more. Sorry but people here are not concern about this nazi-baltics. Probably we simple dont have this propoganda yet and will have it in future. But now it's a just a lie again.
Obviously you are just did not bothered yourself to dig a history facts from both sides and think logically.
You are blaming Ru president for wrong things. For example - that's was obvious that Syrian air strikes will reflect on us with the pilots and tourists death. Thats what the Ru president should be blamed for. Not for striking a bombs on terrorists and rebels (who is btw are often just arab mercenaries). They have a legit goverment, the president who was elected. It seems that the democracy works differently for different countries

Don't you understand why to save a black sea fleet and base so important for Russia? Think logically, Russia nowadays is the only a wolf while the US is a elephant. Check the military and science budgets, health& social care levels. Remember how many lives were lost during a cold war - its nothing in comparison with the time after USSR dissolved. Count the tech boost which was brought to humanity by the cold war.
People who think that "bashing the russian bear" is an achivement itself - could be named only as a retarded. Killing the bear while the crazy elephand running across a planet for the last 25 years and bashing whole states for their economical profits? Are you sirious?
There is no point to continue this discussion. "The happiness is in the ignorance"(C)

 

[Dr Fallout]

Hear, hear!

 

[Eumesmopo]

https://www.rt.com/news/323658-turkmen-commander-turkish-ultra/

The commander of the militia that killed the parachuting pilot inside syrian territory is a turkish nationalist and the son of a turkish mayor.

 

[Gonzalez]

Rediscovered this bit. I think this applies for those who still differentiate between terrorists and "moderate" rebles in Syria.

 

[MutantScalper]

Rediscovered this bit. I think this applies for those who still differentiate between terrorists and "moderate" rebles in Syria.

That was a pretty awkward silence after Putin's bit.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Well, I find it somewhat hilarious when Russia is getting attacked for pretty much the same things France, Britain and the US do at least since the late 1990s. Killing civilians in the name of fighting terrorism.

In that sense, Russia is neither worse or better compared to the rest. I just find it funny. This kind of hypocrisy and hubris in the western world. I mean we have problem killed more people since 2001 in the muslim world trough direct and indirect actions than Russia in the last 25 years maybe. But we still expect Russia to take us and our claims serious. How's that supposed to work?

That's like a car thief lecturing a burglar about what is right or wrong ...

 

[DarkCorp]

Its actually more like the dominant mob telling an upstart new family that this territory is claimed and they are not welcome, that is, unless the new outfit plays ball.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Well, if the roles would be reversed, Obama would end up as war criminal. That's how I see it. Simply for those drone stikes alone, which often enough hit civilians. Or Bush, Rumsfeld and the many others that have been behind the war in Afghanistan and Iraq for Planning, initiating and waging wars of agression and other crimes against peace and crimes against humanity. Should be held in Nurnberg too. Kissinger should be send to Den Haag, getting his trial for Serious Violations of International Humanitarian Law.

Now that would be quite a sight!