Turkey downs Russian warplane in Syria.

zegh8578 said:
You two are pretty much saying the same thing, DarkCorp is inferring it "acts in best interest for itself, and its allies" (allies are allies as long as they're allies. Once they turn enemies, they are no longer allies, and no longer included. He talks about allies while they are indeed allies)
("best interests" can mean a lot. But it applies to Russia's treatment of Syria, as well as American presence in the middle east, just the same. Acting in self interest - as well as looking out for their current allies - in their self interest)

Crni is writing an essay about it (and interestingly brings up the pointing fingers I mention, precisely by being very specific)

But you're saying pretty much the same thing: Shit's gonna happen. Big countries do big shit, small countries do small shit. Shit stinks.
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Historical events are hardly pointing fingers at someone. I am not saying THE american is evil, or THE Russian is evil, just as how THE German isn't a Nazi. The difference is, I am not judging the US for their actions by just saying what they did.

There is a difference between blaming someone and understanding certain actions. I am thinking about a situation where for example Swiss would be in the situation of the USA, and I would think not much would change.

I simply oposse the idea that the US is special compared to Russia, China or anyone else. Simply because we are all humans. Russians are not more likely to be born evil.
 
Crni Vuk said:
zegh8578 said:
You two are pretty much saying the same thing, DarkCorp is inferring it "acts in best interest for itself, and its allies" (allies are allies as long as they're allies. Once they turn enemies, they are no longer allies, and no longer included. He talks about allies while they are indeed allies)
("best interests" can mean a lot. But it applies to Russia's treatment of Syria, as well as American presence in the middle east, just the same. Acting in self interest - as well as looking out for their current allies - in their self interest)

Crni is writing an essay about it (and interestingly brings up the pointing fingers I mention, precisely by being very specific)

But you're saying pretty much the same thing: Shit's gonna happen. Big countries do big shit, small countries do small shit. Shit stinks.
Click to expand...

Historical events are hardly pointing fingers at someone. I am not saying THE american is evil, or THE Russian is evil, just as how THE German isn't a Nazi. The difference is, I am not judging the US for their actions by just saying what they did.

There is a difference between blaming someone and understanding certain actions. I am thinking about a situation where for example Swiss would be in the situation of the USA, and I would think not much would change.

I simply oposse the idea that the US is special compared to Russia, China or anyone else. Simply because we are all humans. Russians are not more likely to be born evil.
Click to expand...

YES
That's what we're all saying
We agree!

Group hug!
 
Do you really think that the western government belive in this bullshit it give to you? Do you thinks that they don't know how the things really are in modern Russia? What Putin does is just a stage play. It needed for both western and russian politics for taking away from their internal problems.
But in the case of Russia - it just cannot be counted as a "power projection" if the actions are needed for country's survival. Simly to project the power - firstly you need to HAVE the power. I already described why we don't have this power now. What doing a rat when you drive it to a corner?- it will try to bite you no matter your size. That's what's going on right now. Defending your country integrity is not equal to external politics ambitions(aka "power projection").
"These sanctions" - that's a western media crap again. Do you really think that now we dont have any western products in the stores? All is the same as 2 years ago! What really hit russian economy is a low oil prices, not "These sanctions".
"Putin wants to keep his 'supply' base in Syria" - what? Putin just want to show that Russia is still a power (but it's obviously not) and will not tolerate destroying another sovereign country again. Simply because Russia will be next quite soon.
"His application of military force has assuredly prolonged the Syrian conflict."- yet it opposite to the facts. The opposition have a talks just a couple days ago between their groups and agreed that Assad should go before peace talks could start. A lot of territories are taken back to Syrian goverment. Even western media admit the fact that russia's intervention did more than 2 years of nato presence in Syria.
I'm not agree with "let not judge US\Else by their actions". How else we can judge? Do we judge nazi german citizens? Yes.
It's very simple to judge who is evil and who is not in the cases like WW2. Nobody has a problems with that? What the difference when US trying to turn a prosperous countries to poor 3rd party natural resourses suppliers?
You are talking about "Instead of playing ball, he's rocking the boat". Thanks but we "played the ball" in early 90th. Millions died of hunger in Russia, economy and production were destroyed, shootings on the streets, oil and gas export money went to western companies abroad.
People who closing their eyes on their government politics are the same responsible as the goverment itself.
For better understanding what is the difference between real power projection and "show" you need to visit Russia and see how people live outside Moscow, what it the real condition of the country. I have a friend from Australia, he is a school teacher and he has visited Russia 5 time for the last 7 years(teaching local kids English language). If you will tell him about "Russia's power projection" he will just laugh to your face.
Unfortunatelly I dont think that you will catch the difference between US and Russia from my explanations. So good luck with hiding your head into the sand.
 
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kkktnxbye said:
Do you really think that the western government belive in this bullshit it give to you? Do you thinks that they don't know how the things really are in modern Russia? What Putin does is just a stage play. It needed for both western and russian politics for taking away from their internal problems.
But in the case of Russia - it just cannot be counted as a "power projection" if the actions are needed for country's survival. Simly to project the power - firstly you need to HAVE the power. I already described why we don't have this power now. What doing a rat when you drive it to a corner?- it will try to bite you no matter your size. That's what's going on right now. Defending your country integrity is not equal to external politics ambitions(aka "power projection").
"These sanctions" - that's a western media crap again. Do you really think that now we dont have any western products in the stores? All is the same as 2 years ago! What really hit russian economy is a low oil prices, not "These sanctions".
"Putin wants to keep his 'supply' base in Syria" - what? Putin just want to show that Russia is still a power (but it's obviously not) and will not tolerate destroying another sovereign country again. Simply because Russia will be next quite soon.
"His application of military force has assuredly prolonged the Syrian conflict."- yet it opposite to the facts. The opposition have a talks just a couple days ago between their groups and agreed that Assad should go before peace talks could start. A lot of territories are taken back to Syrian goverment. Even western media admit the fact that russia's intervention did more than 2 years of nato presence in Syria.
I'm not agree with "let not judge US\Else by their actions". How else we can judge? Do we judge nazi german citizens? Yes.
It's very simple to judge who is evil and who is not in the cases like WW2. Nobody has a problems with that? What the difference when US trying to turn a prosperous countries to poor 3rd party natural resourses suppliers?
You are talking about "Instead of playing ball, he's rocking the boat". Thanks but we "played the ball" in early 90th. Millions died of hunger in Russia, economy and production were destroyed, shootings on the streets, oil and gas export money went to western companies abroad.
People who closing their eyes on their government politics are the same responsible as the goverment itself.
For better understanding what is the difference between real power projection and "show" you need to visit Russia and see how people live outside Moscow, what it the real condition of the country. I have a friend from Australia, he is a school teacher and he has visited Russia 5 time for the last 7 years(teaching local kids English language). If you will tell him about "Russia's power projection" he will just laugh to your face.
Unfortunatelly I dont think that you will catch the difference between US and Russia from my explanations. So good luck with hiding your head to the sand.
Click to expand...

Who are you ranting at?

When you open up by assuming we "believe all the bullshit", you're not exactly inviting for proper discussion.
It is obvious that no matter what we say, we allready "represent the west" in your eyes, and so, everything will be skewed into "believing western bullshit"

I explained what I meant by power projection.
A rat, as you say, that jumps out to bite: projects its power, in order to survive.
America, which allready has the power: must project it, in order to keep it.

But, whatever, paint me with a "western drone who believes all the bullshit propaganda" if it keeps you nice and angry :roll:
 
Before you give your self a heart attack, please, like you tell me, check the facts.

Russian naval facility Tartus INSIDE Syria. Thats POWER PROJECTION aka Russian base in FOREIGN lands.

Black Sea Fleet, Russian base in FOREIGN lands aka POWER PROJECTION.

CSTO aka, Russian NATO. Russian POWER PROJECTION.

Are you saying Russia is NOT capitalist because certain people will disagree with you.

Things were bad sure, after all, the soviet government COLLAPSED. After ANY regime change, life is going to suck. Just ask the French, they have a history with revolutions.

If the Russian navy is in such a bad shape, why cause so much trouble keeping those foreign bases? After-all, those foreign bases are the result of soviet imperialism. Defending those bases is defending imperialism.
 
DarkCorp said:
Before you give your self a heart attack, please, like you tell me, check the facts.

Russian naval facility Tartus INSIDE Syria. Thats POWER PROJECTION aka Russian base in FOREIGN lands.

Black Sea Fleet, Russian base in FOREIGN lands aka POWER PROJECTION.

CSTO aka, Russian NATO. Russian POWER PROJECTION.

Are you saying Russia is NOT capitalist because certain people will disagree with you.

Things were bad sure, after all, the soviet government COLLAPSED. After ANY regime change, life is going to suck. Just ask the French, they have a history with revolutions.

If the Russian navy is in such a bad shape, why cause so much trouble keeping those foreign bases? After-all, those foreign bases are the result of soviet imperialism. Defending those bases is defending imperialism.
Click to expand...

Yeah Russia has loads of bases.

That's evil Imperialism!

But America? Nah it's called... eh protection.
 
If it's good enough to be imperialism for America, it's good enough to be imperialism for Russia.
 
Well, one thing is clear, Russia is keen on expanding it's influence. The question is, how far? I think no one of us is qualified enough to really give an accurate answer.

All I can say is that I am very very glad that this Russophobia has stoped here. Finally. People are back to watching their fucked up reality TV shows again. I guess Ukraine had it's 5 min. of fame at least ... I mean people are still dieing down there, but you can't sell newspapers with it anymore. So no one cares.
 
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Tp be fair, I would say its more of Putin phobia. The russian people don't really have a say in the goings on of Mr. KGB.
 
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