Turkey downs Russian warplane in Syria.

Crni Vuk said:
Well, I find it somewhat hilarious when Russia is getting attacked for pretty much the same things France, Britain and the US do at least since the late 1990s. Killing civilians in the name of fighting terrorism.

In that sense, Russia is neither worse or better compared to the rest. I just find it funny. This kind of hypocrisy and hubris in the western world. I mean we have problem killed more people since 2001 in the muslim world trough direct and indirect actions than Russia in the last 25 years maybe. But we still expect Russia to take us and our claims serious. How's that supposed to work?

That's like a car thief lecturing a burglar about what is right or wrong ...
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This. The hypocrisy of this situation in the media is astonishing. Russia is far from being the 'bad guy' and frankly I as an American am pretty ashamed of what my leaders have done for the past few decades, but I have little control over it (its proven that the top do what they want for profit, which is practically mainstream by now).

Normally I don't comment on this stuff, so I'll just lay out my thoughts here and some links. In the present, the following nations have all been involved in arming/funding extremists through intermediaries, especially in Syria: Turkey, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, U.S., U.K., France. It is by now the World's worst kept secret. Do people remember when NATO illegally bombed Libya and armed radicals there? Once the most prosperous Nations in Africa thanks to its previous leader, now in ruins. And the Idjits of all those Nations think its all going to be Rainbow and Sunshine when the leader of Syria is also illegally deposed? Russia, and to an extent Iran and Iraq, have little other alternatives but to assist their Ally/Neighbor as they can not put an end to the arms flowing across the borders. Syria, Russia, Iraq, and Iran are right now the only ones serious about combating the Hooligan dogs of war NATO thought they could keep on a leash; while plenty more terrorism is simply created from past actions (Anyone who knows their history will know that Rome's later reliance on 'Foreign' armies which obviously did not go smoothly). Didn't work so well with the Taliban in Afghanistan, for example, but they keep doing it over and over. If these leaders are serious about ending terrorism, then go for the root: stop the illegally arms trade and arrest those that fund them, and simply stop committing terrorism on others.

Here's some other good stuff:

(I hate FoxNews and frankly all of the big networks in the U.S., but they recently had Lt. General Tom McInerney interview - but to Fox New's surprise he told the truth, which kind of seems like the establishment is throwing each under the bus at this point)
http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/11/...oting-down-russian-plane-was-very-bad-mistake

(Die Ansalt - political satire)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHbStsy11j0

(The quite loony-bin Turkey's leadership currently headed by Erdogan's is known for playing dangerous games like this shoot down in the past)
http://www.todayszaman.com/national...ys-role-in-syrian-chemical-attack_402180.html
 
Why does no one seem to understand that Russia is fighting from a position of weakness?
 
Russia, like Putin, has ripped off its, shirt to show off its abs.

He is playing the game of power projection.
 
Eumesmopo said:
AskWazzup said:
Russia has been constantly violating sovereign countries airspace (and waters) for a long time, it's unbelievable that this is the first time they paid for it. Actually a russian mig crashed in my country, while violating our airspace some years ago. They are probing nato response and if it means losing a plane or two - no big deal, if it helps in their goals.
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As for Ukraine, there is no proof that there are Russian troops outside of Crimea nor any proof that Russia was the one to down the civilian plane. Quite on the opposite of that there is overwhelming proof of a strong presence of NATO troops (with the welcome from the coup imposed government) and western mercenaries conducting a genocidal campaign of repression at the Donbass.
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Here's a documentary from Vice that offers proof from Russian soldiers themselves:



On Syria. I remember watching videos on Liveleak in 2011 about the protesters being shot at. The majority of the video's commenters were cheering for the protesters, encouraging them to fight for freedom and their rights. Only a few voices were cautious, saying how horrible this can be and how chaos only benefits Al Qaida.
 
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Crni Vuk said:
Riven326 said:
Why does no one seem to understand that Russia is fighting from a position of weakness?
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what do you mean?
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Russia's influence in the middle east has been eroding for years, they're under sanctions, and their economy has yet to recover. Where else do you see Russia being able to make a grab for more power beyond it's borders that doesn't involve another world war? Bashar al-Assad is going to owe the Russians if they succeed in defeating the rebels and mopping up ISIS. Putin ends up looking like the decisive leader who wants to get things done while the US and it's allies look weak and disabled.
 
Sure, Putins intervention hasn't actually propped Assads government up, allowing him to continue the fight for even longer. Thats whats getting done.

Yup, Putins power grab won't start another world war even though Turkey has already shot one of his planes down.
 
Riven326 said:
Why does no one seem to understand that Russia is fighting from a position of weakness?
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russia_wants_war_look_how_closely_they_put_country_to_our_military_bases.jpg
 
DarkCorp said:
And somehow that means Putin should be given free reign on Russian power projection?
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In an ideal world, nobody should be given free reign to project their power

I've said before, that being a citizen from a non-superpower is... different, than being a citizen from a super-power. All human populations will safeguard themselves in any way they can - by projecting whatever power they can, and this will always provoke someone

Just for trivia, here's a few examples of Norwegian relation to power projection, being one of the most harmless countries in the world should make it an interesting example:

When Russian illegal fishing vessels entered Norwegian waters (for the 1000th time), there was a dramatic event where inspectors went aboard such a vessel, for then to actually be kidnapped, and taken to Russian waters. The whole time, Norwegian coast guard followed behind, untill reaching Russian waters, and beyond that, it was left to diplomacy. Russian gvt apologized for the inconvenience, and gave the kidnapping fishermen a slap on the wrist. Norwegians bowed and bowed our faces in the sand, assuring them that no harm done.

When Spanish illegal fishing vessels entered Norwegian waters (much rarer, because of the distance), no time was wasted - the coast guard approached, stopped, and boarded the vessels, and took the whole crew into custody. Spain took it like a responsible adult, and there were no ill feelings on either side. The fishermen were probably fined or something. All by the book.

When Icelandic illegal fishing vessels entered Norwegian waters, the coast guard opened fire on them. Shot their bow to pieces, severely damaging their boats, as well as taking the crew into custody. A much more aggressive approach, shooting at them, live rounds, as if war was taking place. A clear little "guess who's our bitch"-move

So... in order to get bullied around by a country as small and harmless as Norway, you have to be Iceland :V

Speaking of naval powers flexing, reminded me of this little gem

Swedish and Norwegian vessels meeting in the Mediterranean, Swedes hosing the Norwegians, Norwegians responding by giving the Swedes a collision-scare :V
 
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This is like my 5th time in the same argument and its always the same. The West is evil for power projection but for Russia it is ok.

Same answer.

We have had a multi-hegemon world before. Multiple nations flexing their muscles.

It started post fall of Rome where the europeans butchered eachother. It got so bad the pope had to call a crusade to divert all the warmongering.

It didn't last though. Europe continued to burn from Spain VS France VS England VS Italy. Then you had Napoleon. Then you had the World Wars.

Thats a whole lot of fucking warring and dying with UNTOLD dead. This is the result of a many hegemon world.

This CANNOT, be allowed to happen. Putin may be weak NOW, but he's testing the waters.
 
I don't think anybody who knows what they're talking about is accusing the west to be "evil"
But death is death, destruction is destruction, and once a finger points ONE way - say - *finger points at destruction in Afghanistan* it becomes very specific.
Nobody I know have enough hands to point at all injustice at any one time, it's that simple.

It's difficult to communicate about anything, if we were to try to be super-fair about assigning blame "USA is unfair! As well as Russia! As well as China! As well as Japan! As well as New Zealand! As well as South Africa! As well as Chile! As well as Ecuador! As well as the Philippines! As well as Egypt! As well as Libya! As well as Denmark! As well as Estonia! As well as Spain! As well as - "
Every statement would take a day and a half, we'd be like the Ents...

By the end of the sentence, we're not even sure what we're discussing anymore
Like right now... what are we discussing? Which one is the most evil, Russia or USA? Neither, isn't that obvious? It's like the cold-war discussion, which one of USA and USSR had the greatest desire to turn the world into ash? Prooobably neither :I
 
Thats why I don't even post until someone, (there is always one) goes and says, 'Evil West will start world war but Putin won't.

Its a few posts back. Oh yes, Akratus defending the Russians again. Riven too. Why can't folks just admit EVERYONE is an asshole and stop posting troll bait.

I guess it is my fault for taking the troll bait but oh wells.
 
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The issue isn't that people can't accept that. All can be assholes.

Without the intention to attack you though. It's just that you displayed a certain, "USA has to do it, because no one else would do it" mentality and a feeling (I guess?) that if given the chance Russia and/or China would be worse - which can't be proven, because neither China nor Russia are in the position the US is now.

Most of us believe, that Putin isn't even in the position to make Russia a hegemoical power. Not now. And not tomorrow. Doesn't mean that this would be an excuse for what Russia is doing in Ukraine or middle east.
 
Look at history. Every hegemon has acted in the best interest for itself and its allies.

If it didn't, it wouldn't be a hegemon.
 
Selective memory much? I suggest to look at ALL of history, not just that one short part where Rome was acting as republic or Pax Romana. Allies tomorrow, enemies yesterday. The many wars Rome fought, have been often enough nothing else but conquering teritory and sometimes outright destroying any cultural identiy they encountered.

We are talking about hundred if not thousands of years. We tend very often to romanticise history. What makes it worse, is that the further back you go, the worse are the informations. Not so much inaccurate, but most often biased. Take the Romans as best example. What are the best historical sources? Roman historians and leaders, like Cicero, Tacitus, Cesar, Marc Aurel. If we look at the Azteks for example, it's even worse, because we have, for the most part, only spanish records. And obviously, they will tell a version that justifies their genocides/conquering. For the ancient Greek the other cultures they wanted to civilice, long before the ROmans, have been just barbarians in their eyes, savages. For the British empire, the same. And what certain former US leaders thought about, let us say the Arabian world, the Asians, or Russia, is also pretty well documented.

So, historically speaking, this is not the best way to judge empires and their effects on their Allies or satelite states. Obviously a force like the Romans will always try to find justification, explaining their rule as protection and teaching barbarians civilisation. However, if the Gauls or Thrakians, or the many other provinces and vasals of the Roman empire shared their view, particuilarly when they had to pay their tribute again? Very doubtfull. Just ask the German Cherusci and Arminus.

Don't get the idea that anyone of us here hates the US because of anti-americanism.

All I am saying, is that there are no evidence that tells us that the Chinese or the Russians would be either better OR worse compared to the US americans and their current politics. Particularly if you cite to use history as example.

There are questionable decisions, even regarding the US and their past, of which, are borderline to genocide - see the history of the native Americans, Japanese internment camps. Or the questionable use of Nuclear weapons against Japan at the end of WW2, which has caused a lot of debates, even shortly after WW2, as most Commanders, Scientists and officials saw no need for the use of said weapons.

Don't get me wrong. I am not puting the finger on the US or blaming them! What's important is always to keep things in their correct historical context. What's equally important though, is to remember that we are all humans. Americans are not the better kind of human. And neither are the Chinese, Russians or Germans the worse kind.
 
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You two are pretty much saying the same thing, DarkCorp is inferring it "acts in best interest for itself, and its allies" (allies are allies as long as they're allies. Once they turn enemies, they are no longer allies, and no longer included. He talks about allies while they are indeed allies)
("best interests" can mean a lot. But it applies to Russia's treatment of Syria, as well as American presence in the middle east, just the same. Acting in self interest - as well as looking out for their current allies - in their self interest)

Crni is writing an essay about it (and interestingly brings up the pointing fingers I mention, precisely by being very specific)

But you're saying pretty much the same thing: Shit's gonna happen. Big countries do big shit, small countries do small shit. Shit stinks.
 
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The critical point where you are wrong - there is no "power projection" from Russia now. For Russia Putin's actions on the middle east and Ukrain is the question of survival. What US does after the cold war was ended? Tearing the prosperous countries apart and leaving the deserts after it's "democracy". Putin's power projection? Siriously? Russia has no production plants (about 5% left), no agriculture, no science, no education, 99% of army tech is the USSR last presents and developments. The budget is 90% on the oil\gas export (the taxes on the business is also dependent on oil and gas export). What was changed in Russia while the oil price was up to 130usd\b? It was about 15 years! NOTHING! Only a picture of the country which regaining a power. We still have about 30-50 years of oil and gas pumping. And I have sirious doubts that this future money will be spend for the good of russian people.
Drawing a "Big Dangerous Bear""Putin's aggressive Russia" is just how western governments fooling it's own people.
As for now we just dont wont to have the same fate as Yugoslavia, Livia and etc.
 
kkktnxbye said:
The critical point where you are wrong - there is no "power projection" from Russia now. For Russia Putin's actions on the middle east and Ukrain is the question of survival. What US does after the cold war was ended? Tearing the prosperous countries apart and leaving the deserts after it's "democracy". Putin's power projection? Siriously? Russia has no production plants (about 5% left), no agriculture, no science, no education, 99% of army tech is the USSR last presents and developments. The budget is 90% on the oil\gas export (the taxes on the business is also dependent on oil and gas export). What was changed in Russia while the oil price was up to 130usd\b? It was about 15 years! NOTHING! Only a picture of the country which regaining a power. We still have about 30-50 years of oil and gas pumping. And I have sirious doubts that this future money will be spend for the good of russian people.
Drawing a "Big Dangerous Bear""Putin's aggressive Russia" is just how western governments fooling it's own people.
As for now we just dont wont to have the same fate as Yugoslavia, Livia and etc.
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It still is a power projection
The alternative would be an invitation to all kinds of subterfuge with ambitions to break the federation apart.
Such ambitions are not unthinkable, as Russia allready consists of republics - potential countries, that would be much more managable than a united federation.

Obviously, this easyly becomes far-fetched-territory, but - not unthinkable.

Maybe we are interpreting "power projection" differently, but the way I interpret it, is a message of "we are still a power to be reckoned with, so don't even think about it"
 
Power projection as in having in-ordinate amounts of influence over a sovereign country, you know, the same things the west gets bitched at for.

Putin wants to keep his 'supply' base in Syria. The black sea fleet? Look at the level of influence he has over the members of the CSTO.

He works with the Iranians like we work with the Saudis. His application of military force has assuredly prolonged the Syrian conflict. Evil America created whole terrorist groups which is bullshit yet Putins intervention is fucking rainbows.

If Putin is not interested in power projection, why go to such lengths to annexing Ukrainian territory over a naval base? Why create an organisation like the CSTO? The chinese are a wild card but not even they provoke the west as much as Putin does.

Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia worry about him. If a country near Russia wants missile shield coverage, Putin doesn't think they should have it as it effects the motherland.

See thats my gripe. Instead of playing ball, he's rocking the boat. These sanctions are hurting the Russian people but Putin doesn't give a shit because he needs to rip off his shirt and start flexing at every opportunity. Putin is living off of popularity/political goodwill for things he did a long time ago.

When talking about politics, lets try to stay objective here. To Crnis credit, he is right when he says that Russia and China is no different than any major power.
 
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