Beaushizzle
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
I agree. Let other countries sort their own shit.
Twelve not allowed angry mutants
- Thread starter Gonzalez
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Look, Ma! Two Heads!
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Hey, zegh, sorry your country is on bad terms with America. but Taiwan and S. Korea ain't. Neither is Japan. As I said because people simply cannot fucking read other posts, Europe certainly is having a good time.
I said before, Europe should make a euro army that keeps us in check. I trust the euros to be progressive and be a 'responsible', policeman. But guess what? Its EXACTLY that same kind of progressive idealism that keeps Europe out of others business. Some would say that who gives a fuck whether other peoples are suffering, we have no right to interfere with their sovereignty. We gotta play by the rules all the time while the asshats (yes, America is one of them), break them.
Not to mention building such a global capable force would take a pretty big chunk of change and social programs might feel the pinch.
The two big things I hear over and over again is Iraq/Afghanistan. The two recent conflicts that can be argued were considered un-necessary.
I cannot help but think certain folks nations have something to gain with seeing NATO/West take a big walk off a cliff. Atleast fucking man up about it instead of claiming, morality this, bigger asshole that.
They are not universally celebrated. Afterall, there are winners and there are LOSERS. The U.S.S.R. certainly was a loser. But Putin is going to change that. Then instead of proxy wars, we can have fucking another cold war, YAY.
And, your last post says it all Zegh, we'd rather have a regime that would genocide billions rather than America. The hate is strong in this one, welcome to the dark side of the force.
I said before, Europe should make a euro army that keeps us in check. I trust the euros to be progressive and be a 'responsible', policeman. But guess what? Its EXACTLY that same kind of progressive idealism that keeps Europe out of others business. Some would say that who gives a fuck whether other peoples are suffering, we have no right to interfere with their sovereignty. We gotta play by the rules all the time while the asshats (yes, America is one of them), break them.
Not to mention building such a global capable force would take a pretty big chunk of change and social programs might feel the pinch.
The two big things I hear over and over again is Iraq/Afghanistan. The two recent conflicts that can be argued were considered un-necessary.
I cannot help but think certain folks nations have something to gain with seeing NATO/West take a big walk off a cliff. Atleast fucking man up about it instead of claiming, morality this, bigger asshole that.
They are not universally celebrated. Afterall, there are winners and there are LOSERS. The U.S.S.R. certainly was a loser. But Putin is going to change that. Then instead of proxy wars, we can have fucking another cold war, YAY.
And, your last post says it all Zegh, we'd rather have a regime that would genocide billions rather than America. The hate is strong in this one, welcome to the dark side of the force.
Didn't you just accused Sua and a few othes in the no-weapons topic that they go over bodies to achieve their fun-toys? Why should we accept it in this case for what I can only describe as pitiful reasons - The wars and politics done by the NATO are not for human rights but mining rights, those are resource wars. Nothing else.
I would actually give you a point here you know, if the situation was actually changed by any of our actions. If at least the outcome would justify the costs of human life - on all sides. But has the situation in the last 20 years really changed? Is Kosovo a better place today? Will the Irak and Afghanistan become beacons for democracy and freedom once our troops leave? No one could be THAT naive ... Are they now really democratic societies with all the freedom and liberty that we value so much in our societies? Has the midle east actually become more or less stable from our actions? There are still way to many unsolved questions in this equation. And I find that actually pretty disturbing in the face of no clue half a milion dead people since this war-on-terror crap started. But yeah, you are right, as long it happens on CNN in the evening news, its just "hell". What are a few sacrificed bodies or villages for the greater goal, right?
Yeah, war is hell. But it leaves a really foul taste in my mouth when I think about the people that have been killed for our resources and economy. Tell that to the starving people in the places we bombed to hell over the last 20 years.
Sure, sure, let us criticze everyone while turning a blind eye to Turkey and what they did for decades with the Kurds. Or how they didn't really do much to stop ISIS mercenaries/fanatics crossing their borders, as long as they did their shit in Syria, am right? And now all of sudden Turkey sees a need to do something because they started to create trouble in Turkey as well. Oh yeah! Erdogan, the prime example of a politician fighting for freedom. If Turkey was in the same location like Iran Erdogan could be just as easily painted by our media as dictator. But we don't even have to look that far.
Is Itally really a perfect example for a democracy? If we see "all" members of the Nato as good democratic societies, than we have no basis to complain about Putin. You can't tell me that someone like Berlusconi was a flawless democratic leader. He made a joke out of the Italian parliament.
Viktor Orban in Hungary? Since 2010 his national coservative party Fidesz has changed the constitution, restricted the press and media, most of the media is controlled by the state, several journalists lost their jobs, they introduced segretation in school for children from Sinti and Romani and the party increased the inflation of the nation. Guess you must have missed the mass protests and sanctions be the EU becuse of the rightwing politics in Hungary.
Spain and Greece became "democracies" only in the last century, Greece has been a member long before it's change. The NATO really isnt that picky when it comes to their allies, as long it suits their needs. Human rights? Fascists? Nah! Who cares, as long they havn't been commies!
Acording to the democracy index there are 24 full democracies, the NATO however has 28 members, from those 28 members only 10 are in the list of full democracies the rest fall under flawed democracies or hybrid regimes. So much to the integrity of the NATO.
The NATO is like a whore, it doesnt really care to much who's siding with, as long as the conditions suit her needs.
And I didn't even started with the history of all those "free" nations. When has the US abolished their segreation? Must have been in 1860s or something. Oh no ... that happend somewhere after the 1950s. Or the situation of gay people in democratic societies up to the 1980s? Where it was seen as legal to turn them in hospitals forcing medical treatments on them?
The western world loves to talk to everyone from a very very high horse, but we are extremly quick for forget our own errors and issues when it comes to mining rights. But I really wish we would not preach so much and actually LIVE by the own standarts we DEMAND from other nations so often.
Seriously, I am not attacking the US or Europe so much for beeing dicks. All nations can be dicks. No question about that. What I really hate is this fucking hypocrisy. From China or Russia at least I know that their leaders are pigs in suits. But here people have to be reminded constantly that the wars we fight are always to either kill Hitler (Sadam) or to help people become nice little minatures of our system as we have to teach them the true values of democracy. I understand that the world isn't a perfect place and sometimes violent actions are the only appropate answer, but I would say that the last 30 years have clearly shown that the current issues in our world can not be solved by military interventions, they only serve to help those few that run the show, the politicans craving for power and the corporations that use this to stay on top and with their paws over the resources that othe nations hold. There actually IS no interest in a real democratic, free and stable middle east. Do you know what would happen tomorrow if the poor fuckers down there would unite? If they would really adobt our values? It would be literaly game over for most of our economies that are build on the principle of exploitation.
If the rest of the world would SERIOUSLY adobt our values, and our capitalistic society, it simply could not work! No way could we afford the prices for the resources and goods we consume, which are aprox 40% of the worlds resources. 10% of the world population maybe, consume more than 40% of the worlds resources.
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DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I know about our own problems, I have never denied we have those problems. Is it hypocrisy? Sure.
Again, politics is not about MORALITY, its about compeition. Putin ISN'T evil, he IS an asshole.
But the people who can make a difference are ALL about military intervention. You know, the U.S.S.R., and now, Russia. Iran is certainly interested in MILITARY INTERVENTIONS. Without the U.S., the CPC wouldn't hesistate to MILITARILY intervene with Taiwan.
Crni, your arguments are just as hypocritical as mine are. Your essentially saying its all Americas fault. If we would just hippy out like Europe, everyone else would start playing by the rules and sing kumbaya and shit. Seriously, wakeup.
Again, politics is not about MORALITY, its about compeition. Putin ISN'T evil, he IS an asshole.
But the people who can make a difference are ALL about military intervention. You know, the U.S.S.R., and now, Russia. Iran is certainly interested in MILITARY INTERVENTIONS. Without the U.S., the CPC wouldn't hesistate to MILITARILY intervene with Taiwan.
Crni, your arguments are just as hypocritical as mine are. Your essentially saying its all Americas fault. If we would just hippy out like Europe, everyone else would start playing by the rules and sing kumbaya and shit. Seriously, wakeup.
You do know that I mentioned also (western) Europe and the NATO as whole right?
1 good nation for 5 fucked up ones. Howdy doody! Now that's a rating! Not to mention that Japan, lost a major war, was occupied for decades. South Korea, was a dictatorship under Syng man Rhee with countless people beeing opressed and killed by the regime. Only in the late 1980s have they started democratic reforms.
Many of those places you named managed their reforms without the direct help of the US. The world was divided in two seperate blocks during the cold war, democracy or not democracy played not much of a role here as long you supported either one side or the other, infact the US even SUPRESSED democratic elections in fear of the population actually voting for a socialist government - see Salvador Allende.
The track record of European or US support/influence is very very poor, historically speaking. Even in Europe the Germans saw the Americans and their troops rather as occupation force than liberators after 1945. The democratic proces that took place in Germany had already its roots in the 1920s. It wasn't so much the American and Allied effort that made the change here. Most nations today see our influence as a new form of colonialism and imperialism. And that is not even that far away from the truth when you see how much power US and European companies have in foreign nations.
1 good nation for 5 fucked up ones. Howdy doody! Now that's a rating! Not to mention that Japan, lost a major war, was occupied for decades. South Korea, was a dictatorship under Syng man Rhee with countless people beeing opressed and killed by the regime. Only in the late 1980s have they started democratic reforms.
Many of those places you named managed their reforms without the direct help of the US. The world was divided in two seperate blocks during the cold war, democracy or not democracy played not much of a role here as long you supported either one side or the other, infact the US even SUPRESSED democratic elections in fear of the population actually voting for a socialist government - see Salvador Allende.
The track record of European or US support/influence is very very poor, historically speaking. Even in Europe the Germans saw the Americans and their troops rather as occupation force than liberators after 1945. The democratic proces that took place in Germany had already its roots in the 1920s. It wasn't so much the American and Allied effort that made the change here. Most nations today see our influence as a new form of colonialism and imperialism. And that is not even that far away from the truth when you see how much power US and European companies have in foreign nations.
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Dr Fallout
Centurion
I agree with Crni. NATO is no better then Russia and China. Even Putin saw this, making fun of America's power, bringing their 'justice' and 'democracy' to other places as they will. Look at what that democracy did. It made things WORSE. America is creating more fuck ups then strong countries. Is that a good thing?
Yeah, yeah just hand wave those mistakes, we're still better then you. But how can they say that when America and NATO cause so much suffering?
Yeah, yeah just hand wave those mistakes, we're still better then you. But how can they say that when America and NATO cause so much suffering?
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Defeating the U.S.S.R. is a poor track record? Saving S. Korea from a brutal communist regime is a failure? Protecting Taiwan was a failure?
Again we are going in circles.
Just because life sucked AT ONE TIME, usually at a states inception, doesn't justify abandoning S. Korea and Taiwan to an explosionfest. Life, RIGHT NOW, is pretty good for those peoples. Imagine how shitty it would be if we straight up fucking abandoned them to the communists.
Your arguments are akin to, just because there were growing problems, we should just condemn the country and say, to hell with it.
Ok, Germany had democracy. But do you know what Germany and Japan also had courtesy of the Americans? Something called the fucking Marshal Plan. Without dipshit extremist fucktards to constantly fuck shit up, the process of rebuilding went pretty smoothly. Great way to just, play out your points and fuck everything else.
Dr. Fallout,
Because those nations who hooked their trains up to ours, will suffer just as much, or even more, if we decline. Or does that suffering not matter to you? What the hell do you think is going to happen if we allow Putin to get to a point where the CSTO has enough power to 'punish', Europes defiance to Russia during the early years hmm??
Seriously tired of fucking saying this, I KNOW that some of you would benefit from America dropping out. But you know what? So sorry, too fucking bad that you guys were on the wrong side of the cold war. But trying to hide behind some bullshit morality argument is simply asinine.
Again we are going in circles.
Just because life sucked AT ONE TIME, usually at a states inception, doesn't justify abandoning S. Korea and Taiwan to an explosionfest. Life, RIGHT NOW, is pretty good for those peoples. Imagine how shitty it would be if we straight up fucking abandoned them to the communists.
Your arguments are akin to, just because there were growing problems, we should just condemn the country and say, to hell with it.
Ok, Germany had democracy. But do you know what Germany and Japan also had courtesy of the Americans? Something called the fucking Marshal Plan. Without dipshit extremist fucktards to constantly fuck shit up, the process of rebuilding went pretty smoothly. Great way to just, play out your points and fuck everything else.
Dr. Fallout,
Because those nations who hooked their trains up to ours, will suffer just as much, or even more, if we decline. Or does that suffering not matter to you? What the hell do you think is going to happen if we allow Putin to get to a point where the CSTO has enough power to 'punish', Europes defiance to Russia during the early years hmm??
Seriously tired of fucking saying this, I KNOW that some of you would benefit from America dropping out. But you know what? So sorry, too fucking bad that you guys were on the wrong side of the cold war. But trying to hide behind some bullshit morality argument is simply asinine.
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Dr Fallout
Centurion
Defeating the USSR so you could expand your influence even further causing more death isn't a good thing. They were good, two things in comparison to... oh Somalia, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, South America... You cause more destruction the good. And people like you ignore that.
DarkCorp, you ... you think the US defeated the USSR?
We will never know that. If the South lost in the Korean war? Most probaly in a worse situation, definitely! But remember, North Korea attacked, I never said the US has to hold still when their troops come under attack. I already said, the Cold War was with many things a bit special, I do not denny that! Doesn't justify every action today, we are NOT in 1950 anymore. How nations like Taiwan would have developed? Who knows that. Look at the GDR. It was under Soviet influence and they managed a more or less peacefull change and doing relatively well today. Changes can and will happen, even without US/western influence. Gorbatschow and the politics of the Sovietunion at the end - Glasnost & Perestroika - have their role as well, historically speaking. It wasn't just all NATO and the West. The Cold War could have easily ended in a nuclear war if just a different man was on the button at that time ... luckily we will never know that.
*It's not always about binary actions and terms of success or failure. We are talking about real human lives here, that's the point! And I feel we tend to be way to often to paranoid about our so called enemies while not critical enough about our own actions - in general terms.
We will never know that. If the South lost in the Korean war? Most probaly in a worse situation, definitely! But remember, North Korea attacked, I never said the US has to hold still when their troops come under attack. I already said, the Cold War was with many things a bit special, I do not denny that! Doesn't justify every action today, we are NOT in 1950 anymore. How nations like Taiwan would have developed? Who knows that. Look at the GDR. It was under Soviet influence and they managed a more or less peacefull change and doing relatively well today. Changes can and will happen, even without US/western influence. Gorbatschow and the politics of the Sovietunion at the end - Glasnost & Perestroika - have their role as well, historically speaking. It wasn't just all NATO and the West. The Cold War could have easily ended in a nuclear war if just a different man was on the button at that time ... luckily we will never know that.
*It's not always about binary actions and terms of success or failure. We are talking about real human lives here, that's the point! And I feel we tend to be way to often to paranoid about our so called enemies while not critical enough about our own actions - in general terms.
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DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
We as in NATO/West, you know, the organisations your constantly hating on.
The S. America thing you folks always yell about, was a result of the cold war.
AGAIN, FFS, no conspiracy theories please. I might as well just LINK to the other threads if this shit gets repeated.
Dr. Fallout,
Did you read ANYTHING I wrote about playing fair?? You do not remain ahead by 'PLAYING FAIR'. If we played FAIR, we'd let Putin rebuild Russia into might soviet empire and China would get to stomp on Taiwan. Because, you know, we gotta be fair and leave those other countries to do the fuck they want.
Europe is playing fair while letting the U.S. do most of the heavy lifting and take a majority of the blame. Look at how effective the euro army is at countering U.S., Russian and Chinese influence right????
The S. America thing you folks always yell about, was a result of the cold war.
AGAIN, FFS, no conspiracy theories please. I might as well just LINK to the other threads if this shit gets repeated.
Dr. Fallout,
Did you read ANYTHING I wrote about playing fair?? You do not remain ahead by 'PLAYING FAIR'. If we played FAIR, we'd let Putin rebuild Russia into might soviet empire and China would get to stomp on Taiwan. Because, you know, we gotta be fair and leave those other countries to do the fuck they want.
Europe is playing fair while letting the U.S. do most of the heavy lifting and take a majority of the blame. Look at how effective the euro army is at countering U.S., Russian and Chinese influence right????
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Dr Fallout
Centurion
The USSR was defeated by itself in terms of economy. There was never some big battle that defined a winner.
The Sovietunion colapsed, historically speaking it had many many different reasons, of which SOME can be attritubed to the NATO and the West like the arms race, space race etc. which caused a huge strain on the Soviet economy, but not all of them are directly related to the western world/NATO. To talk about a victory is not really correct. Not to mention that the colapse came for many actually as a surprise.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Ok, SO, NATO/WEST played an CRUCIAL role in containing Soviet expansion, therfore, creating significant problems for them. We/NATO kept the good life going for those who would otherwise be enjoying the great fruits of soviet socialist utopia right? Thats a pretty good fucking achievement to me.
Many sacrifices were made because of the cold war. We did our bad shit, the soviets did theirs. Thats why we CANNOT have another cold war yea?
Many sacrifices were made because of the cold war. We did our bad shit, the soviets did theirs. Thats why we CANNOT have another cold war yea?
Depends. Are you talking about South Korean dissidents, of which some have been tortured to death?
*sighs*, look, I am not saing that I am unhappy that the Sovietunion colapsed instead of the NATO/America. Are you happy now? I mean you don't have to take this personal, you know, I just feel there is a distinctive lack of criticism in our popular media and politics when it comes to foreign affairs which could prevent countless of completely uncessary deaths. That the cold war and our role, historically speaking, in particiular gets romanticized like as it was some kind of old Bond movie with all its villains and the action, and he gets the girl in the end too!
I understand that it is an extremly complex world, that you can not hope to use the same strategy for every nation and that sometimes things don't turn out well - even Kissinger said as much! But we tend to be always so quick with our judgment when it comes to so called enemies, terrorists, fanatics, or our allies as well! We forget way to often that we are dealing with human beeings here and we forget that restraint is always more difficult than action. We let way to often fear and missjugement cloud our mind just because it is difficult and hard to decide what the right course is. And lust for power and greed is doing the rest. But we SHOULD take our time, and we SHOULD be very critical about our selfs, always, as what we do or don't do (to make you happy!), will eventually have very real and big effects for the people and nations we are talking about.
Not everything is always bad and not everything is always good. Obviously. And that counts for all sides.
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Sn1p3r187
Carolinian Shaolin Monk
Putin is too damn manly for us to handle.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Cheap shot but let me turn it around,
Would you sacrifice the lives that S. Koreans have today because of dissidents?
As Sander puts it, Its a bullshit tactic like the trolley dilemma.
Would you sacrifice the lives that S. Koreans have today because of dissidents?
As Sander puts it, Its a bullshit tactic like the trolley dilemma.
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See, that is exactly the mindset I critize. Why is everything always such an absolute? Almost binary. Either this, or that, you can't have A and B, we don't sacrifice those few, the whole thing will colapse. Its them, or us.
Do you honestly feel this is a good and healthy politic, particularly for the future?
Do you honestly feel this is a good and healthy politic, particularly for the future?
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DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Its a simple disagreement of policy, its not some crazy dramatic thing your making it out to be Crni.
You are saying that Putin, is trustworthy. You say he isn't making power plays, just cleaning up our messes. You say, if we play fair, Putin wouldn't take advantage.
His actions say otherwise. You disagree.
See its a simple disagreement, period. But then you start bring out the anti-U.S., back slapping fucking drama which does nothing to help your argument. I counter as well and neither of us is convincing the other.
See how bullshit it isa to play the morality card, or how one asshole is bigger than another? Size doesn't fucking matter. This debate has been done to death.
And honestly, this thread would have been fine, but Gonzalez screwed it up by, purposefully, bringing up the post-fest that was Russian-Ukrainian war.
You are saying that Putin, is trustworthy. You say he isn't making power plays, just cleaning up our messes. You say, if we play fair, Putin wouldn't take advantage.
His actions say otherwise. You disagree.
See its a simple disagreement, period. But then you start bring out the anti-U.S., back slapping fucking drama which does nothing to help your argument. I counter as well and neither of us is convincing the other.
See how bullshit it isa to play the morality card, or how one asshole is bigger than another? Size doesn't fucking matter. This debate has been done to death.
And honestly, this thread would have been fine, but Gonzalez screwed it up by, purposefully, bringing up the post-fest that was Russian-Ukrainian war.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Darkcorp, you hand wave too many of America's fuck ups and focus on the few good things they did. America in their campaign against the USSR funded terrorists, rebels and sometimes directly took part creating war and suffering. The Middle East was pretty fucked by Israel, but things collapsed totally when America dabbled in their. South America was already screwed but America just shat on it by funding rebels and assassinating communist leaders who were might have been GOOD.
T
TorontoReign
Guest
You don't become the worlds #1 super power without breaking a few eggs. Except in this case the eggs are countries.