UK Tuition Fee Protests

[Sander]

Jesus people, try cutting out some of the content of these quotes. No point to quoting a full post if you're just the next guy replying.

Also, education is a fundamental part of industrialization and modernisation. More educated people means more versatility for your economy - which ultimately means more economic productivity.

That's all very simplified, but providing free or cheap education is very beneficial for nations.

 

[TheWesDude]

huh?

9k a year sterling is a lot to you?

my friend went to college, a pretty cheap one and he was paying $35,000 a year ( PLU in washington state ) and while they are not the most expensive, that is typical yearly tuition for a median 4 year college in the US.

i havent kept up on exchange rates, but last time i checked the pound wasnt 3:1 on the dollar, which means you are still paying didly squat.

and our community colleges which offer up to 2 year degrees are like $500 a quarter, normal is 3 quarters a year, and books are like 200-350$ depending on classes and such


i think you guys are too used to the welfare state. the money has to come from somewhere, eventually they have to make you pay for the services you use. the government cannot pay for everything for you. and thats the problem with welfare states.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

In state tuition is around $8000 plus books (another $1000 off the shelf, half to a third of that online). Making all public education, including college, free is feasible and beneficial with appropriate taxes to pay for it. Obviously you don't pay for everyone's school, you have GPA requirements and a maybe a maximum dollar/credit amount or time limit.

 

[Threepwood]

huh?

9k a year sterling is a lot to you?

my friend went to college, a pretty cheap one and he was paying $35,000 a year ( PLU in washington state ) and while they are not the most expensive, that is typical yearly tuition for a median 4 year college in the US.

i havent kept up on exchange rates, but last time i checked the pound wasnt 3:1 on the dollar, which means you are still paying didly squat.

and our community colleges which offer up to 2 year degrees are like $500 a quarter, normal is 3 quarters a year, and books are like 200-350$ depending on classes and such


i think you guys are too used to the welfare state. the money has to come from somewhere, eventually they have to make you pay for the services you use. the government cannot pay for everything for you. and thats the problem with welfare states.

It is not alot of money to me personally, I have not suggested that whatsoever, in my current status, it's affordable.

45,000.00 GBP = 70,014.60 USD.

Your figure of 35,000 USD is 22,497.74 GBP.

I need say no more on that.

On the Welfare State:
Allow me to quote a scource to explain to you the fundamentals of taxation.

"To tax (from the Latin taxo; "I estimate") is to impose a financial charge or other levy upon a taxpayer (an individual or legal entity) by a state or the functional equivalent of a state such that failure to pay is punishable by law."

Check a tax chart, the UK pays higher tax than you. That's where the money comes from.

Sorry the "people I know" routine doesn't provide fact. JFG "College Protest turns Violent" and educate yourself. History has shown repeatedly that college students engage in violent protest activity, to deny/absolve all responsibility based on people you know is rediculous. I would agree that some are probably just instigators, but to say ALL are....just seems dishonest.

Secondly, where did I mention dollars? I just assumed we were speaking of pounds my friend, but thanks for attempting to educate me and rectify the situation at the same time, 3000 pounds a year is cheap for higher education. All the costs you mention after college is called "life", life cost money, cry me a river already.

Don't overlook my posts, I gave you several points not just the 'people I know' argument. Yes, college students do and have, an are turning violent. As do old people, cats, dogs, middle aged people, and clowns. Please indicate to me where I stated ALL agressors were not students, and supported the cause, for I am certain I did not say such.

It's actually slightly higher than 3k anyway, but i'll go with that, I am not crieing you a river, nor am I playing destitute or any other such thing. I have no problem paying for these fees.

 

[Sander]

huh?

9k a year sterling is a lot to you?

my friend went to college, a pretty cheap one and he was paying $35,000 a year ( PLU in washington state ) and while they are not the most expensive, that is typical yearly tuition for a median 4 year college in the US.

i havent kept up on exchange rates, but last time i checked the pound wasnt 3:1 on the dollar, which means you are still paying didly squat.

and our community colleges which offer up to 2 year degrees are like $500 a quarter, normal is 3 quarters a year, and books are like 200-350$ depending on classes and such


i think you guys are too used to the welfare state. the money has to come from somewhere, eventually they have to make you pay for the services you use. the government cannot pay for everything for you. and thats the problem with welfare states.

The money does come from somewhere: taxes.
And yes, 9K GBP per year is a lot of money. You don't have a lot of prospective college students that can pay 9K per year out of pocket.

 

[Shoveler]

I gave you several points not just the 'people I know' argument. Yes, college students do and have, an are turning violent. As do old people, cats, dogs, middle aged people, and clowns.

Actually you didn't, you used the 'people I know' as the backbone of your argument that the violence is due to people that had nothing to due with students or the cause at hand. I mean damn, protests across the whole country, you must know a heeellll of a lot of people.

Please indicate to me where I stated ALL agressors were not students, and supported the cause, for I am certain I did not say such.

You implied it, you stated that the aggressors had nothing to do with the students. Trying to absolve the behavior of your fellow students, because students surely (don't call me Shirley!) couldn't commit barbarous acts like vandalizing buildings, oh no!

It's actually slightly higher than 3k anyway, but i'll go with that, I am not crieing you a river, nor am I playing destitute or any other such thing. I have no problem paying for these fees.

Funny, you ask people to comment on the situation, but then don't like the comments, surprise. I'll call em like I see em. 3000 was cheap, you should pay more. I've got nothing wrong with education, higher education even, just that a sense of entitlement you are showing seems......misplaced. It only gets harder and more expense from here, ah, but I let you learn that on your own.

 

[Sander]

Funny, you ask people to comment on the situation, but then don't like the comments, surprise. I'll call em like I see em. 3000 was cheap, you should pay more. I've got nothing wrong with education, higher education even, just that a sense of entitlement you are showing seems......misplaced. It only gets harder and more expense from here, ah, but I let you learn that on your own.

The idea that education should be open and available to everyone isn't an issue of entitlement. Yes, education is expensive. But by making education cheap and affordable for everyone, you're creating a lot more social mobility within your society. In essence, you're creating a level playing field where merit becomes the determining factor.

 

[Threepwood]

Actually you didn't, you used the 'people I know' as the backbone of your argument that the violence is due to people that had nothing to due with students or the cause at hand. I mean damn, protests across the whole country, you must know a heeellll of a lot of people.

Your argument is to ignore my argument? I did. Re-read my post, you are clearly an idiot.

You implied it, you stated that the aggressors had nothing to do with the students. Trying to absolve the behavior of your fellow students, because students surely (don't call me Shirley!) couldn't commit barbarous acts like vandalizing buildings, oh no!

I thought you said I 'said ALL protesters werent students'. Now I implied it? I asked you to indicate where, you failed to do so.

I said, students are as liable to do such as any other demographic. Please read my posts before you reply, or you will continue to sound like an ill informed moron.

Funny, you ask people to comment on the situation, but then don't like the comments, surprise. I'll call em like I see em. 3000 was cheap, you should pay more. I've got nothing wrong with education, higher education even, just that a sense of entitlement you are showing seems......misplaced. It only gets harder and more expense from here, ah, but I let you learn that on your own.

Yes, I opened a forum for discussion on the tuition fees. Not a forum for discussion where failed jerk offs make false assumptions about my financial status, make allusions to or about my wealth (or lack thereof it seems) and then consiquently go on to lecture me about all of lifes issues, and such.

Youv'e got nothing wrong with education, even higher education?

Wow, that is so great of you! Wow, thank you so much! You mean, you dont mind if people get educated? That's great, the whole world has been awaiting your approval of higher education. Nice one.

I don't have a sense of entitlement. Please see my figures I posted, and learn about how a welfare state works, and look into UK taxes.

I do not need lecturing.

 

[Shoveler]

The idea that education should be open and available to everyone isn't an issue of entitlement. Yes, education is expensive. But by making education cheap and affordable for everyone, you're creating a lot more social mobility within your society. In essence, you're creating a level playing field where merit becomes the determining factor.

All true, however, if the system is running at a loss, which it is, based on all the cost cutting the British government has decided to take on, then they have to start charging more before it collapses. Even with more money coming in, it may still run at a loss, but less so. Things can only run at a loss for so long, then.....pop. This seems simple to me, as it does to you I'm sure. Things that were previously free or cheap, are going to cost more when the government decides it's time to tighten it's belt.

Shov

 

[Threepwood]

All true, however, if the system is running at a loss, which it is, based on all the cost cutting the British government has decided to take on,

Oh God that statement was unbearibly stupid! You realy have no clue about this do you? The government issued a financial bailout to the banking industry, and our previous government had a high level of spending.

then they have to start charging more before it collapses. Even with more money coming in, it may still run at a loss, but less so. Things can only run at a loss for so long, then.....pop. This seems simple to me, as it does to you I'm sure. Things that were previously free or cheap, are going to cost more when the government decides it's time to tighten it's belt.

Oh dear. Where is your evidence that it's running at a loss? For one thing, it's not free. Secondly, please, please for the love of God, read something about taxation.

 

[Sander]

All true, however, if the system is running at a loss, which it is, based on all the cost cutting the British government has decided to take on, then they have to start charging more before it collapses. Even with more money coming in, it may still run at a loss, but less so. Things can only run at a loss for so long, then.....pop. This seems simple to me, as it does to you I'm sure. Things that were previously free or cheap, are going to cost more when the government decides it's time to tighten it's belt.

Shov

That's true, but the issue is prioritization. I don't know enough about the British economy to comment on the extent of losses and to what extent education is responsible for it. The issue for a government is that cutting into the education budget is easy and it will 'fix' the budget now. The problems this creates only start to surface over a longer period of time, when said government will long be out of power. There's an incentive for governments to cut into spending now, to increase the economic situation now. But that may not be the best move from a long-term perspective.

But as I said, I don't know enough about the details to speak with any authority about the situation in Britain right now. These are more general truisms.




Threepwood: stop calling people idiots. Keep it civil.

 

[Shoveler]

Your argument is to ignore my argument? I did. Re-read my post, you are clearly an idiot.

I read it, the first thing you mention was people I know, your strongest argument. I'll refrain from the name calling, it'd be too easy. I'll also take it as an early sign of your arguments collapse.

I thought you said I 'said ALL protesters werent students'. Now I implied it? I asked you to indicate where, you failed to do so.

I said, students are as liable to do such as any other demographic. Please read my posts before you reply, or you will continue to sound like an ill informed moron.

You said those committing those acts weren't students early on, then you changed it to they're just as capable in a later post. Change it up, it's fine.

Yes, I opened a forum for discussion on the tuition fees. Not a forum for discussion where failed jerk offs make false assumptions about my financial status, make allusions to or about my wealth (or lack thereof it seems) and then consiquently go on to lecture me about all of lifes issues, and such.

I never mention how much money YOU have or that you were broke or otherwise. I could care less. What I did say is that 3000 is cheap for higher education, and stand by that. Life issues is exactly what don't seem to know much about, reading back through the posts, those whom disagreed with you all got the same response, in the vein of they don't know what they're talking about. "I don't need lecturing blah blah blah", strike a nerve there I guess.

Regarding being failed, heh, I've got a comfortable life, people around me that love me, and a job I enjoy, life isn't perfect, but pretty good. I worked hard for all of it, and got lucky a few times in the process.

By the way I worked my way through school, payed for it myself with my earnings from part time work. If all that is failure, then so be it.

Youv'e got nothing wrong with education, even higher education?

Correct for once.

Wow, that is so great of you! Wow, thank you so much! You mean, you dont mind if people get educated? That's great, the whole world has been awaiting your approval of higher education. Nice one.

Just like they asked your approval for raising the tuition rates, your opinion matters much I see, don't those school officials/government know whom they're dealing with???

I don't have a sense of entitlement. Please see my figures I posted, and learn about how a welfare state works, and look into UK taxes.

Seems you do, there is nothing you can teach me, I've been where you are, and things turned out fine, you will too, probably. It's not supposed to be easy.

I do not need lecturing.

You mentioned that to a couple of people already in this thread, mayhap you do. Perhaps it's the way you seem to know all, but don't really know much. You've tried to lecture everyone who's disagreed with you so far. You'll learn in time.

 

[Shoveler]

Oh God that statement was unbearibly stupid! You realy have no clue about this do you? The government issued a financial bailout to the banking industry, and our previous government had a high level of spending.

Yes, the previous government had a high level of spending, which you and you generation will now pay. That's how it works in this case.

Oh dear. Where is your evidence that it's running at a loss? For one thing, it's not free. Secondly, please, please for the love of God, read something about taxation.

While I could dig up some statistics somewhere I'm sure, I'll point you toward the obvious, 300% increases don't happen when the financial situation is fine. See how that works? They're charging more because currently it wouldn't be sustainable long term. Simple really.

 

[Threepwood]

I read it, the first thing you mention was people I know, your strongest argument. I'll refrain from the name calling, it'd be too easy.

I mentioned it first. I then went on to produce a list. Last but not least ring a bell?

You said those committing those acts weren't students early on, then you changed it to they're just as capable in a later post. Change it up, it's fine.

That is simply untrue; see my reply prior to this one. If you say so, do quote me and catch me out. Otherwise, continue to make these adhominem 'Yes you did/no you didn't' attacks.

I never mention how much money YOU have or that you were broke or otherwise. I could care less. What I did say is that 3000 is cheap for higher education, and stand by that. Life issues is exactly what don't seem to know much about, reading back through the posts, those whom disagreed with you all got the same response, in the vein of they don't know what they're talking about. "I don't need lecturing blah blah blah", strike a nerve there I guess.

Regarding being failed, heh, I've got a comfortable life, people around me that love me, and a job I enjoy, life isn't perfect, but pretty good. I worked hard for all of it, and got lucky a few times in the process.

By the way I worked my way through school, payed for it myself with my earnings from part time work. If all that is failure, then so be it.

I need look no further than the last couple of posts. You think 'I' should pay more.

No, this thread has been filled with debate thus far, not 'the same treatment'.

I skimmed over your life story.

Just like they asked your approval for raising the tuition rates, your opinion matters much I see, don't those school officials/government know whom they're dealing with???

No, no they did not. Yet I never assumed a position of supreme power, like you did.

Seems you do, there is nothing you can teach me, I've been where you are, and things turned out fine, you will too, probably. It's not supposed to be easy.

I do not seek to teach you anything, you have not been were I am judging by your biography you handed to me, and I have made no suggestion things wont turn out fine for me personally. This thread is nothing to do with my financial situation whatsoever. I didn't say things should be easy, nor do I appreciate the flurry of lectures.

You mentioned that to a couple of people already in this thread, mayhap you do. Perhaps it's the way you seem to know all, but don't really know much. You've tried to lecture everyone who's disagreed with you so far. You'll learn in time.

*sigh*

Why are you qualified to lecture me? Pray tell, for I imagine if you were, I'd be paying you 9k a year.

 

[Shoveler]

I mentioned it first. I then went on to produce a list. Last but not least ring a bell?

It does, if only the argument wasn't poor in the first place.

That is simply untrue; see my reply prior to this one. If you say so, do quote me and catch me out. Otherwise, continue to make these adhominem 'Yes you did/no you didn't' attacks.

Only what you've said. Stand by it.

I need look no further than the last couple of posts. You think 'I' should pay more.

No, this thread has been filled with debate thus far, not 'the same treatment'.

You should pay more, how does that equal me saying you're poor, or at some disadvantage?

I skimmed over your life story.

The difference is, that there is one. You've shown to me at least you have little to no life experience. Which is fine, it'll change probably.

No, no they did not. Yet I never assumed a position of supreme power, like you did.

Supreme power, for saying I don't have a problem with higher education, wow that reaching a bit. I say what I mean, and you're reading far more into it.

I do not seek to teach you anything, you have not been were I am judging by your biography you handed to me, and I have made no suggestion things wont turn out fine for me personally.

You couldn't if you wanted to, you're incapable at this point. I haven't been where you are true, I've been far worse, there was no help me. Financially or otherwise.

This thread is nothing to do with my financial situation whatsoever. I didn't say things should be easy, nor do I appreciate the flurry of lectures.

You're right it doesn't which is why I haven't been discussing YOUR financial situation. I've been discussing the apparent need to raise your tuition rates. Your as in you and your countrymen.

*sigh*

Yes, please take a breath and compose yourself.

Why are you qualified to lecture me? Pray tell, for I imagine if you were, I'd be paying you 9k a year.

Why is a dad qualified to give advice to a son, is a son paying him 9k a year? Does that make dad's advice less valid? Look, I'm not your father or have the desire to be, but people, even strangers can give some good advice. You don't know it all yet, understand that.

 

[Shoveler]

Just a quick google, from 1 year ago.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/oct/14/international-students-pay-20000

Seems that university finances were tenuous then, relying heavily on international students, probably worse now, and probably needed addressing 10 years ago. The only way to explain away a 300% increase is that there was financially little choice.

And apologies, but I have no idea if the Guardian is reputable site or not for news, just one of the first that came up, but seemed logical and made sense.

 

[Sander]

Stop double-posting, Shoveler. Just use the edit button.

Also, universities don't need to be self-sustaining. This is a political decision - they need to cut budget and they decide to do that by taking it out of education.

 

[Shoveler]

Stop double-posting, Shoveler. Just use the edit button.

Also, universities don't need to be self-sustaining. This is a political decision - they need to cut budget and they decide to do that by taking it out of education.

Agreed, they don't have to self-sustaining, but there is a line. Sinking deeper and deeper into the red indefinitely, will kill any institution or government for that matter. Same is happening here in the U.S. maybe more so. News broke yesterday or the day before about how several hundred billion of US tax payer money went to bail out foreign banks as well. All across the EU and Asia. More connected than previously realized. Interesting times, I think more financial responsibility will be heaped upon citizens than in times past, which I actually am glad to see.

Shov

 

[TheWesDude]

It is not alot of money to me personally, I have not suggested that whatsoever, in my current status, it's affordable.

45,000.00 GBP = 70,014.60 USD.

Your figure of 35,000 USD is 22,497.74 GBP.

I need say no more on that.

yes, you do. like i said, he went to a well respected, cheap 4 year university. i did say cheap. conversely, like 40-50 miles away from where he went to college is a very well respected college in seattle, UW, and if he had gone there his tuition would have been in the neighborhood of around 60k-70k a year USD. and he had opted for just the major and no minor, he could have gotten away with 50-55k a year.

you get what you pay for.

On the Welfare State:
Allow me to quote a scource to explain to you the fundamentals of taxation.

"To tax (from the Latin taxo; "I estimate") is to impose a financial charge or other levy upon a taxpayer (an individual or legal entity) by a state or the functional equivalent of a state such that failure to pay is punishable by law."

Check a tax chart, the UK pays higher tax than you. That's where the money comes from.

yes, all of europe pretty much pays more taxes on average than the US because predominantly european states are welfare/socialist states. while the US keeps trying to move in that direction, the actual pushes keep failing. see obamacare.

 

[Threepwood]

Shoveler;

You have consistintley ignored every single point I have made to you, only partially quoted what iv'e said, continually overlooked the points, to put your' narrow focus on wordplay, with your' brilliant comebacks. Ensure you quote me, when you say I'm changing my argument, or when you point figners at certain parts, for otherwise, you have no evidence, and therefor no argument. Infact, you have no argument, i'd say you're all style and no substance, but your style is poor, it's that of a beliegured middle aged dude, playing wise elder to someone not all that younger, whom he bielives him to be.

It does, if only the argument wasn't poor in the first place.

Iv'e said time and time again. Please quote me on what you're referring to. You claim I have poor arguments, or keep switching, and I ask you to quote me. You fail to do so.

Only what you've said. Stand by it.

Again, you fail to adress the issue. You skim my post and respond to whatever your mind can form a comeback to. Quote me.

You should pay more, how does that equal me saying you're poor, or at some disadvantage?

That was a brief example, and nor did I apply those assumptions to it. I said it was a comment on me personally. Not a major one, just the one in the "last couple of posts".

The difference is, that there is one. You've shown to me at least you have little to no life experience. Which is fine, it'll change probably.

How old are you taking me for here? On what grounds do you summarise my experience in my life as 'little to no'? For that is not the case, please do tell, the age you are placing upon me.

Supreme power, for saying I don't have a problem with higher education, wow that reaching a bit. I say what I mean, and you're reading far more into it.

I'd say that mitigating your position to 'hey i'm ok with it' in regards to something almost universally accepted as a vital and intrinsic part of societey, puts you in a position of unique authority. Hell, even the Taliban probably agree about higher education, how do they learn to make IED's?

You couldn't if you wanted to, you're incapable at this point. I haven't been where you are true, I've been far worse, there was no help me. Financially or otherwise.

Again this is ridiculous, you do not know me, I am not in a bad fincancial situation, there is no 'worse' for I am not in a bad position.

You're right it doesn't which is why I haven't been discussing YOUR financial situation. I've been discussing the apparent need to raise your tuition rates. Your as in you and your countrymen.

As you don't have the courtesey, I shall not backtrack and present evidence of such, do re-read your own posts.

Yes, please take a breath and compose yourself.

Thank you holy one. I worship your supreme authority.

Why is a dad qualified to give advice to a son, is a son paying him 9k a year? Does that make dad's advice less valid? Look, I'm not your father or have the desire to be, but people, even strangers can give some good advice. You don't know it all yet, understand that.

Oh dear. I really have no comment on that abomination.

While I could dig up some statistics somewhere I'm sure, I'll point you toward the obvious, 300% increases don't happen when the financial situation is fine. See how that works? They're charging more because currently it wouldn't be sustainable long term. Simple really.

I said there was an economic downturn. The financial situation is not stable. Congratulations, youv'e coem out from under that rock youv'e been hiding in. Education is not what made the mess, as you said earlier. Nor is it loosing money.

Your article is moot, it talks about the intrinsic nature of immigrant students attending universities, money is not relevant.