Ulysses is kind of a moron...

If you consider that the great war happened in a class divided society, makes some sense to nuke both legion and NCR in my opinion, they are a reproduction of the core problem that caused the great war in the first place. Obviously not only them, as the whole wasteland reproduce this in some scale.

I played the DLC a long time ago and I saw Ulisses like a man who wanted to overcome the class divided society but he kinda fails expressing this properly. His intention of blowing everything, in my opinion, tells more then what he actually says and go towards this. What could rise from the destruction, that is different from the old government, NCR, Legion, etc? Class abolished societies imo.

I imagine communists, anarchists and even post apocalypse left ideas would be a thing, aberrations like the Master; Followers of the Apocalypse maybe can be considered sort of communists?
 
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I'm a simple man, i think Ulysses makes no sense because it's just Chris Avellone's writing being more suited to magical or mystical settings.

Chris' characters were never subtle or "real". In a materialistic or/and humanist setting like Fallout his style does not work. He is tend to turn a setting into a theme park and a character into caricature of a certain philosophical view.

So Ulysses simply sticks out like a sore thumb in a Fallout game.
 
This OP describes everything I felt about this shit DLC that I was too fucking exhausted and confused to even analyse after choring through the last third of it, though it was kind of a chore from the start, really. From BEFORE the start, even.
 
I noticed someone made a mod completely rewriting Honest Hearts with new voice acting. Haven't played it but I thought it looked interesting. I wonder if anyone could do that with Lonesome Road. I'm actually fine with the story, character of Ulysses, gameplay and setting, I just think Ulysses' voice acting could've been better and some extra characters/companions/enemies would've been nice.
 
To me, Ulysses never seemed like much of a philosopher. Rather, I always thought of him as just a man with a very large chip on his shoulder.

He talks big and says a lot of shit, but in the end he's just questioning the Courier's loyalties to lure them into a trap. His high school-level philosophy makes me think he's not a thinker of any kind, but perhaps his obtuse use of metaphors is simply something from his tribe's native culture.

Mind, I've only played through Lonesome Road once, but I got the impression that he was doing everything he was to spite the Courier (despite them having no real blame in he destruction of Hopeville). His attempt to destroy what little civilization had resurfaced in the West since the bombs fell was in a direct effort to get revenge on the Courier; what made him dangerous wasn't some great mind or vast intellect, it was the fact that he was an irrational man willing to use the harshest means he could to fulfil his vendetta, and he had the tools to do so.

He may charm the player by sounding clever (arguably), but in reality he's just a madman. His plan doesn't make sense because it wasn't meant to have any other effect other than "the Courier will be sad".

TL;DR Ulysses a turrist
 
To me, Ulysses never seemed like much of a philosopher. Rather, I always thought of him as just a man with a very large chip on his shoulder.

I never got the "student-level philosopher"-vibe from Ulysses. He said things in weird ways, and developed an idea about how individuals alone can mark history, but I'm not sure how that even comes close to Caesar's use of Hegelian Dialectics, or any other kind of "real" philosophy.

I wouldn't describe Ulysses as a moron. Hypocrite sums him up better. He's basically just a jerk throwing a tantrum because the world didn't go the way he wanted it to.
 
Ulysses and The Courier are sides of the same coin. They're both motivated by simple revenge, yet realize there's a bigger picture than mere vendettas. Each man can change the world for better or worse. It's not that the writing is bad, its just more thematic in structure and dealing with symbolism. All of the DLCs deal with the past in one form or another: Greed, regret, personal obligations, and hope. Ulysses doesn't believe in The Legion, he keeps hold of the sense of meaning that was his tribe, and in The Divide he had found something much like it. And then it's all taken away from him. He's not so much mad at The Courier, but the world. And it ties into his adoration of the old US of A, of a time when people believed in a larger world and ideas. He marks things with images of the American Flag and carries around an old flag pole. The guy wants to be a part of something bigger and greater than himself. He's the darker side of The Courier. He's really a sad person, lost, and trying to make sense of a senseless world. He does talk in fortune cookie ways, but that's an issue of style rather than meaning.
 
I'd say the writing is pretty bad on a lot of levels, which is why there's even a debate. You can do characters with off-kilter or odd beliefs and do it well without them seeming too pretentious about it. If Ulysses is just very angry and it poisons his judgment, you can portray that too. NV does this constantly with its characters. (Elijah, Joshua Graham, Dean Domino, God/Dog, Caesar and so on.)

Personally I find Caesar's use of Hegelian Dialectic to be a rather silly personal belief. He seems to believe, in practice, if not explicitly, that there's some historical inevitability to what he's doing that justifies his actions. It's a little pompous, but believable given the character. He's clearly very intelligent, but intelligence doesn't equal infallibility.

And actually Ulysses echoes a lot of Caesar when I think about it. Because Ulysses wants to wipe the slate clean with nukes. It's his own take on a kind of a conflict-based dialectic. There is no acceptable middle ground or compromise that can be built from what already exists. This is directly opposite Caesar, who places importance on the Legion and the NCR as its rival.

And Ulysses really does seem like he should be the warrior-poet archetype who would be brooding on whatever ideas he picked up from Caesar. Yeah dude does a lot of brooding.

Mind you, they don't have to come across as grounded in the reality of mere mortals. They're both bombastic and grandiose personalities. Fallout 2 pulled this shit off Hakunin. You could mock Hakunin for being a kooky old man who is hallucinating too much, but you did get the impression that he operated on some kind of internal logic that was knowable only to himself. Ulysses does a lot of that crap. He speaks in a lot of tribalspeak, similar to Follows-Chalk, just with a lot more mystical flavoring.

But for whatever reason, Lonesome Road just doesn't work.

A lot of it is that the set piece is this rather grungy and depressing setting of smashed concrete and storms. The place is just desolate and depressing. So that sucked to play in.

The Marked Men really aren't important at all. Nor are the burrow monster things whose name escapes me. They don't really have a lot of relevance to the plot. They're mostly pretty forgettable. At least Old World Blues, Honest Hearts and Dead Money had enemies that at least tied into the plot or theme of their DLC. (ROBO-SCORPIONS! ATTACK!)
So none of the enemies build up Ulysses.

You're informed that this destruction is the Courier's fault which just seems very shoe-horned. You'd think you'd remember something monumental like that. They don't even lampshade it very well. If you tell Ulysses as much, he just says, "Oh yeah, just believe me. This was totally your fault."
Well okay then.

By the way, we're also not shown what Ulysses lost. We're just told that there was some unspecified settlement in the ruins that we never see that was important to him. But no real reason why it was important. Just believe it when he tells you that it's the better alternative to the NCR, Vegas or Legion. There isn't any plot or setting element to show us. We're told. Also something about Old America.
So that pokes another hole in our investment in the plot.

It's hard to tell exactly what it was they were going for.
 
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What annoys me the most about Ulysses is that the game wants me to take him seriously.

He is hyped up for three DLC and has a entire DLC dedicated to him. He is the only antagonist in Fallout where you join with him and not get a game over.
 
Obsidian wanted to create a nomadic character very similar to the player's own protagonist (in that Ulysses travels around the wasteland doing oddjobs and exploring). They also wanted this character to have a personal grudge against the protagonist. Ulysses also needed to have a final showdown with the protagonist in a somewhat dramatic Fallout-y fashion.

It was always going to be a difficult feat to pull off, especially making the player care about an event that they weren't aware of until the DLCs. I think they actually did a fairly decent job with Ulysses himself as a character, but I think Lonesome Road itself could've been better. It needed to have that same tension and build-up that Dead Money had.

(makes me wonder what it could've been like isometric, without the limitations of the Gamebryo engine...sigh...)
 
I think Hopeville's destruction was badly handled. The game just goes "all those ruins are totally your fault, despite this not being even hinted at anywhere before the DLC" then Ulysses spends the entire DLC being salty at the Courier because of it, but you never see it, never have any idea what it was actually like, never met any people from there save one, never heard of it from anybody save Ulysses. So it seems the game tries to pile up the guilt on the Courier (or even the player in a weird way) and it just feels blatantly shoe-horned in as a last-minute reason for Ulysses to hate the Courier.

Contrast with New Canaan, which we also never saw and was also destroyed offscreen, but we heard from it before the DLC, the goal of the caravan is to go there and we meet two of its former denizens who have opinions that diverge but still coroborate to a degree. So you actually know New Canaan was a good place and the Wasteland is lessened by its absence. New Caanan is relevant to Honest Hearts. Hopeville feels like a pure plot device.
 
I am convinced that adding a few characters to Lonesome Road could solve a lot of problems.
 
I am convinced that adding a few characters to Lonesome Road could solve a lot of problems.

I agree. I think it's an easy trap to fall into, the all-or-nothing-ness. It's easy to think a stubborn attitude towards design to be admirable as such by itself, but it can present a lot of new problems.
There was a lot I didn't buy, like those winds. Why am I completely unaffected? I'm not even gonna ask how wind can tear skin off people, and how they then turn into werewolf-vampire-ghouls because of wind, not even going there - but...

Why did NCR send 3 guys, then stop trying? In the Mojave they are controlling the situation in a much more impressive way. Why couldn't they send... 30? Just kill the "marked men", and set up shop? IN the wind? Yes yes, cus they'd then turn into wind-ghouls as well, I know I know, but lame :I
 
Yeah I think it would have been nice if we met a few other sane survivors or other visitors to the Divide which we could talk to and get a general picture of the location and what has been going on here.
Or we should have been able to talk with Ulysses more than just on set moments.

And perhaps the wind in the upper sections should have been more damaging to our health and equipment, while the Divide ravine itself would be a bit more radioactive, at least in Survival Mode.

There should have been more of a buildup to the revelation that this is a place which used to be home to a settlement and indications that the player has been here before. (perhaps a half insane survivor claiming that he recognizes the player and then dismisses it, thinking it is another illusion from his broken mind)
 
I always felt like Ulysses was just Avellone Avelloning too hard.

Yeah, I also have the same feeling. I guess our expectations after Dead Money were really high.
And though Honest Hearts, Old World Blues, and Lonesome Road really weren't bad, they definitely weren't as narrative strong as Dead Money was.
Lonesome Road was... well just a lot of really good atmosphere but a bit lacking in the content, and I am a supported of this DLC.
 
One thing to note is Obsidian actually had a limit for dialogue for all the DLCs as a whole, only having 10,000 lines for all four. From what I know, Lonesome road has less dialogue specifically because of that and they wanted to focus more of the dialogue into Old World Blues.
 
Lonesome Road feels like Chris Avellone just had some old Planescape Torment ideas lying around and just used them.
 
I think it all works. I just think it needed more expanding on. That point Doomfulllord made was interesting. Seriously, I know Honest Hearts had problems but I'm amazed that that was the one that got a modding overhaul and not Lonesome Road, which didn't even really need an overhaul other than just a few extra characters and locations explaining the winds, the Marked Men, Hopeville etc.

Dutch Ghost: I love your idea of a survivor recognising the player and being freaked out by them.
 
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