Unpopular Opinion and Discussion thread

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by R.Graves, Feb 21, 2017.

Is this poll pointless?

  1. Yes

    26.2%
  2. No

    11.9%
  3. INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER

    61.9%
  1. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Black lives matter doesn't mean "they matter more". It's an statement on how from the treatment from both cops and government it seems like they don't matter. If you can't understand this and then claim white priviledge doesn't exist in your country you just disproved yourself.
     
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  2. Supreme Shah Ismail

    Supreme Shah Ismail Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    422
    Sep 17, 2016
    I never said that those games were in anyway successors in terms of gameplay to the originals. Nor do I think they were trying to be. I said they were good translations into the 3D bethesda style open world game. I don't even think New Vegas is really the proper successor they think it is (in terms of gameplay, it very much is a sequel to fallout 2 in terms of plot and setting) because it largely has the same gameplay. What New Vegas did was prioritize story and player choice. With a few additions via inspiration from mods and tweaks to overall improve the experience of 3. Fallout 4 is probably the least fallout game to have come out. It has more of what was in Fallout 3 than in Fallout 1-2. So maybe to newer players its still a Fallout game in their eyes I dunno. Fallout 4 is a HUGE disappointment when compared to its predecessors, even 3 but as a RPG-ish diablo like open world game I think its pretty good. Granted like in System shock 2 in the originals builds and the specific skills you chose mattered a whole lot. But that's not to say they don't shape they way you play to some degree in 3 and New Vegas. Its just far more forgiving and lets a far looser player expression but player expression non the less.

    I agree that the game is abit too generous with upgrade points but I overall feel the augmentation focus is for the better. Because "swimming' and "Poison resistance" are stupid skills. Also unlike system shock it was a very lax skill system even for the time. Also the augmentations actually significantly affect your play style and how you move about the world. I too think that I think the world spaces and the writing is much better in HR. I just never felt the stealth or the shooting in deus ex were every really satisfying or that good.

    But as I said, Fallout 3-4 are very obviously Fallout in spirit less so mechanically. Where as HR and MD are intended to be sequels/modernizations mechanically.
     
  3. GonZo_626

    GonZo_626 Well Shit!

    521
    Jul 29, 2016
    How about blue lives? As in police lives? BLM as a movement protested after 2 cops shot and killed a federal criminal and I do believe that one of the cops was black, armed with a handgun, who was mugging people with said handgun, and attacked the cops when they showed up. They also protested after a 60 some year old lady shot an under 20 male who broke into her house. Yes black lives matter as much as all others, unfortunately as a movement they just protest every black person who gets shot.

    Personally I have no problem with any criminal who gets shot for attacking police or little old ladies, I don't even care if said criminal had a gun or not. I don't think self defense should be regulated away from using whatever means you have to defend yourself lethal or not, police or civilian.
     
  4. Millim

    Millim Half-way Through My Half-life
    Orderite

    Oct 13, 2010
    While I agree with the notion of Black Lives Matter, the founders are fucking insane.
     
  5. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Who even implied their lives don't matter? Are you trying to deny systematic corruption, ethnic profiling and police brutality with a completely unrelated complaint because it makes you feel uncomfortable?

    Oh you don't care about proper procedure when it comes to a life ending? Hope you like living in a facsist state then. I hope you never have to face wrongful accusation.
     
  6. joevonzombie

    joevonzombie Buried alive in Golgotha

    599
    Sep 28, 2015
    They really aren't though. Fallout's world was never stuck in the 1950s, it was set in the future as predicted by the 1950's. There is a huge difference. They are also obsessed with Prewar America in ways that the original games never were because Prewar America was never the point. They fundamentally do not understand the IP and thus they could never actually make something that is truly in the original games spirit. Obsidian was able to do this because understood this very well and New Vegas still has its faults because they had to use Fallout 3 as a template, but it is what it is.

    HR has useless skills too. There is no real reason ever waste points on the stealth tree, The Typhoon system was also a waste of points because of how scarce the ammo is and upgrading your energy usage is also useless because it recharges the first two cells and it doesn't take that long out of the gate.
     
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  7. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    I liked both but aside from Old World Blues, there just haven't been many Fallout DLC which embraced the wacky and fun side of the post-apocalypse world. The Pitt is great but like Lonesome Road was generally humorless. For me, Nuka World was just a journey to the happiest place on Earth and full of fun places to explore and humor. I also was moved by Oswald's story.

    I don't think Fallout 2 needed a continuation since it was a good place to end the franchise. Instead, I feel Fallout: New Vegas works best as a thematic continuation of Fallout 3 with many characters and ideas serving as a direct foil. It's a game which in addition to gameplay similarities is also one which discusses the next step from building civilization in Fallout 3 to following up how they may have looked decades later. The Enclave, BOS, and Elder Lyons all got follow-ups I felt worked well. They make great companion games, IMHO.

    I like the motorcycle plucky girls, what can I say.

    As much as I like JC he doesn't have much personality versus Jensen who has an entire life with his job, co-workers, hobbies (clockmaking), and ex-girlfriend. I really disliked how all of the character stuff was thrown away for MD.

    Pretty much my view. Then again, JC does have some sarcastic wit and social-economic observations versus Alex who I just want to smack.

    Eh, to each their own. There's a reason it's the unpopular thread. You'd need to deliberately come to my house and kick me in the nuts to make me not enjoy post-apocalypse Disneyland, though.

    Does anyone other than me not prefer it that way?

    Basically, I don't think Fallout: New Vegas is that good of a sequel to Fallout 2. It also stomps all over the canon of F2 in order to fit better with the Fallout 3 ideals which are critiques of American exceptionalism. IN Fallout 2, for example, the goood future established is one where the word "President" becomes a memory and they create a utopian paradise of Shi green technology and places like Arryo are tribal/science mixtures which are wholly different from the nation which has come before. The NCR in New Vegas is Pre-War USA redux, which is something the original games considered monstrous and anachronistic but Fallout 3 discussed at length.

    Basically, instead of conversations where you say the right thing to get in bed, the two main characters hit it off and have sex in the early part of the game before beginning a relationship which lasts the entirety of the game with neither party being murdered but enjoying each other's company. It's almost unprecedented.

    FUS RO DAH

    The Mona Lisa is just paint. I'm not saying I'm going to marry her but she's a beautiful piece of art.

    I really enjoyed it even if the choices don't matter as much as a better game would have them.

    Ghosts and Advanced Warfare are pretty much where the games completely went off the rails. It's interesting that I can tell exactly where they did as the developers have hammered down in interviews they want to tell stories of "good vs. evil" where the players are heroic soldiers doing battle with nasty villains. It's kind of bizarre because Modern Warfare and Black Ops both benefit from doing the exact opposite and when you try to frame war stories in such childish terms, they get warped completely.

    A war story without cost and horror is not military fiction but military porn.
    -David Weber.

    The best COD games were the ones which departed from WW2 experience. The problem with the COD games lately haven't been their gameplay but the fact their stories have been shit. It's also because they have a design philosophy which is designed around making the player characters feel like ultimate badasses justified in murdering the brown people (or white people or robots or corporate stooges) than telling a good story.

    Also, they've done some stupid shit where if they get criticism for this, they leave things hanging. Ghosts and Advanced Warfare (and now Infinite Warfare) all had big huge set ups for their campaigns but they end up being left hanging because they're not going to get sequels. As much as I felt Ghosts was racist and lame, I'd prefer they at least finish the story.

    Basically, that's why I prefer the one year game cycle. You don't need to reinvent the wheel with a bunch of pointless new features. Assassins Creed is good because you have a tried and true formula which is a fun and decent game you'll know will be worth a purchase every year. I feel the same way about Bethesda's "style" of game and would have been cool playing essentially Fallout with the SPECIAL system repeatedly but they decided to fuck with it.

    It depends on the game but generally I'm in for the story rather than the gameplay. I love Alien: Isolation and my favorite parts of RE7 were when I was being stalked. However, I'm always there hoping there's a way to advance which I can do if I screw up.

    I love TWAU but don't really like Fables all that much.

    I think Episodic Gaming is probably the best thing to happen to gaming in recent years. The Triple A gaming industry has become so damn obsessed with producing the next big blockbuster, they've failed miserably in establishing telling smaller and more interesting stories.

    The possibilities of Episodic gaming as represented by Teltale and "Life is Strange" are massive.
    I also think Hitman also shows we could be entering into an era of gameplay where games can be seasonal like TV shows where good games are released without being EVENTS and that's a good thing.

    Episodic Gameplay FTW.

    I'd rather do a Hitman episode a month than one big game of them every few years.

    White privilege is a misunderstood word because privilege is a reactionary word which conjures ideas different from what people think. A better term would be "white advantage." Poor whites and those who are struggling horrifically against the system which is designed to keep them down every bit as much as minorities of another type is a system which has existed since Washington.

    "White Advantage" if you will is basically defined as simply, "the police are less likely to use violent force against you, assume you are automatically a criminal, or treat you as a risk." This White Advantage also extends to economic issues like loans, sale of property, and hiring. It also applies to education too.

    But primarily Black Lives Matter took off because of the assumption of the fact police were killing Black males at a grossly disproportionate rate and the militarization of the police had reached epidemic levels--not the least because of things like Ferguson.

    As for the laws, enforcement is the major question of them and plenty of them can and do get attacked regularly. In the Ferguson matter, the cops involved had resigned (versus being fired) from previous places for police brutality and had become "gypsy cops" which just joined another police precinct to continue their pattern of brutal behavior.

    I'm of the mind badly needed reforms are required in America to make it so the police are less militarized, we have more evidence to protect them as well as suspects in body cameras, better training for using non-lethal weapons as the situation demands, and internal affairs are handled at the state rather than local level. Police brutality isn't an AMERICAN problem, it is a global problem and America can be better at this.

     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
  8. Millim

    Millim Half-way Through My Half-life
    Orderite

    Oct 13, 2010
    But that's the problem of Annual releases, they don't know much to distinguish themselves from each other.
    I enjoy games that can see the issues of a previous release and then improve upon those problems, it's why I like games like Mass Effect and Metal Gear Solid so much, each successor saw the flaws of the previous game and spent time to fix them. Assassin's Creed will never get more complicated than "Dumb fun" which is fine if you're going to spend time on that big dumb fun, but when it's a yearly release, it's going to be the same.

    Look at GTA, each games looks at what the previous game did and worked off from that. It's why the GTA games genially get more praise than Assassin's Creed..

    I actually don't mind episodic gaming (calm down guys, it's not as bad as you think it is), but I do feel there are some genres that don't fit well with it.
    RPGs don't lend themselves well to an Episodic release, but an FPS or Adventure game would.

    However, I feel each episode should tell its own unique story which ties into the major story at hand.
    I feel that there should be a beginning, middle and end in each episode with their own conflicts and characters, essentially making a series of mini games rather than one big release.

    I also want to stress that games don't lend themselves well to the usual movie-esqe formula we've seen them try again and again.
    Games like New Vegas actually feel like a TV show, you have the side quests which are more akin to stand alone episodes, and the major quests which feel like the important two-parters that reveal more about the plot.
    If a game took New Vegas as an example, than a quest like "Come fly with me" would be a sort of Season Opener, giving the player hints at future events while also telling its own story.
    You then precede to various episodes where we get to meet Benny which would be a sort of big Episode 5 which is longer and more packed than the previous episodes, hinting at the bigger problems at hand and ending with the death of Benny and talking to the Legion.
    Of which Episode 6 would start with you helping Legion out for a while.

    I was just using that as an example of how Episodic Gaming should work out.
     
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  9. Yeah, becouse fuck releasing a single solid, complete game on day one. First expansions, then DLC, then over relying in mods and now games aren't even released at once.
     
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  10. joevonzombie

    joevonzombie Buried alive in Golgotha

    599
    Sep 28, 2015
    Fallout 3 actually has to have coherent themes a coherent world for that to be true. If you consider damage control a "follow up" then sure.
     
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  11. Millim

    Millim Half-way Through My Half-life
    Orderite

    Oct 13, 2010
    Expansions have been around for years and never really caused much of a problem.
    While I don't think Episodic is the best way forward, it certainly isn't a bad step, as long as the episodes themselves form a complete package.

    It's actually good for letting devs know what to focus on for upcoming releases and gives them better feedback.
    I find the complaints about Episodic is bad to be kind of silly, especially considering this practise has been going on a lot longer than you think.

    In fact, by some stretch, you could consider Episodic an evolution of expansions.
     
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  12. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    There's a false equivalence in your description as an Episodic game isn't "incomplete", it's the promise of a half-dozen complete games which are collected into one. It's part of the reason why I love them because so many fucking games are released to the public half-complete and buggy masses of crap versus a complete finely tuned smaller game which works perfectly as is. Hitman (2016) worked AWESOMELY because they fine tuned the game as the players gave feedback on each individual episode and each individual episode was perfectly self-contained as is.

    Yes, they all worked up to the "seasonal plot" but you didn't lose anything for playing them individually.

    Also, what the fuck are wrong with Expansions? That would remove The Witcher: Blood and Wine.

    It's the general assumption of having to be bigger, longer, and uncut which is ruining gaming industries. There's nothing wrong with Assassins Creed games which needs to be improved on. You can just plop down and play them and enjoy your latest city and story with the same mechanics. I think if we had more of that, the costs could be kept down on Triple A games and more focus given on just churning out a good story and setting. Dragon Age: Inquisition, for example, is this massive massive game of complete...nothing. They focused everything on making it huge without adding anything into it.
     
  13. Millim

    Millim Half-way Through My Half-life
    Orderite

    Oct 13, 2010
    I overlooked this argument earlier, but a major issue with that is, New Vegas does a better job at expanding Fallout than 3. It's why I consider it an epilogue to the Fallout Duology, it closes out the series but not in the fashion a 3rd in the trilogy should.

    Instead, it's a "Where are they now" type scenario, where the BoS are fucked beyond belief, the NCR are expanding too much for their own good, the Super Mutants are dealing with various mental issues and the Ghouls are trying to survive.

    It takes the themes and ideas of Fallout 1&2 and kind of closes them but leaves them with uncertainty for the future.
    The issue with Fallout 3 is that it feels like a spin-off, a series of events that ultimately don't matter as the creators don't feel confident enough to change the World around them, but at the same time, want to leave their mark on the rest of the series.

    F3 and NV almost have nothing to do with each other outside of gameplay, even the feel and themes are very different. F3 just seems to be about survival but doesn't delve long enough to go deeper. Instead it's "Water = Good" rather than communities working together to... well... survive.
    There seems to be a militaristic theme occurring, but the Enclave's ultimate end plan is never really explained for that theme to really shine through. Instead it feels like the Devs read the wiki page for 1984 and decided to stick that with it, not working out the nuances and details of the 1984 universe.

    New Vegas explores the theme of Survival much better by raising the stakes of securing Hoover Dam.
    That's because it also ties into the theme of greed, which seeing where the game is set, makes sense.
    This also goes into the theme of letting go, as we see time and time again of the veterans making their own mark, whether it be the Enclave or Mr House, or even the Player Character against Benny, the game lets the World make up its own choice with the theme at hand.

    So no, New Vegas works better as a sequel to Fallout 2, without 3, New Vegas can stand on its own as its own thing, but without New Vegas, F3 is just a waste of potential which could have been something great.
     
  14. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    New Vegas doesn't remotely epilogue anything as the game sets up the inevitable collapse of NCR due to food shortages, tunnelers, and the events of Lonesome Road. There's not really an 'ending' to the game from my perspective.

    I don't disagree with this.

    It's showing the events on the other side of the map and setting up a new part of the story. It's not attempting to simply continue the events of the previous region of the map.

    For me, Fallout 3 is about nostalgia for the past and the crippling loss of the Old World. It's about rebuilding when the people around you have failed to do so.

    Eh, to each their own but bluntly I think NV retcons too much of Fallout 2's ending to be considered a real continuation of the franchise.

    But I don't mind spin offs and retcons is the story good.
     
  15. welsh

    welsh Junkmaster

    Apr 5, 2003
    Well, for the record, I just want to say that I am White, and hopelessly privileged, and know it. I know it because cops treat me with a respect and kindness that my black colleagues don't get. I used to practice law and now teach. My wife is a lawyer and was a teacher. She's Brazilian, Latino, and she doesn't get my White Privileges, and she totally deserves them (because she's awesome and hot). Likewise, I think that my black colleagues don't get the respect that they deserve is bullshit and treating them with inequality undermines my privileges in this society by denying me the right to interact with people I admire and who deserve to be treated like equals. The inequalities that are perpetrated on fellow human beings is a denial of empowerment to all.

    As for BLM, there are those that say that the "also" is implied at the end of the Black Lives Matter. Those who say that what is missing is "only" have not looked at BLM's own website to understand and are projecting a prejudice by trying to frame an argument in their favor.

    But the truth is, I fear, that both are wrong. What the empirical facts would suggest is that the words that are missing are Black Lives "Don't" Matter "as much as anyone else." The evidence of that is when black folks seem to get shot by the police with immunity. Don't get me wrong- I am find with the police using deadly violence when it is warranted. I am even in favor of the death penalty (for killers, rapists and corporate criminals) on the grounds that a person that fails to treat their fellow human being with humanity loses the right to be treated with humanity (I admit that's harsh). But if there is little or no accountability when a police officer shoots an unarmed black person, than we undermine the legitimacy of the state's monopoly on the use of coercive force because one faction of our society sees the use of force not as a protective shield against injustice, but as an instrument of repression and intolerance. Black lives "should" matter, but sometimes it looks like they don't. And that's pretty fucked up.
     
  16. Supreme Shah Ismail

    Supreme Shah Ismail Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    422
    Sep 17, 2016
    I just may not be one of those people who hate Bethesda so much. I don't think they're amazing developers but ive played some of their games and thought "eh that was pretty good" There are no strict rules or genres need to necessarily follow. ofc New Vegas appeals to older fans more. I like new Vegas over 3 and 4 any day. But a franchise is going to be under different interpretation depending on the developer. Its inevitable if a game changes hands that different people will interpret things different ways.Its up to personal opinion whether they're interpretation was good or not. Even for Deus Ex. As their games touch on a lot of issues but don't have a very clear or well done over arching theme. For example their Jensen is Icarus thing doesn't really make that much sense on closer examination.

    I just find it kinda odd that me saying Planescape Torment is overrated doesn't garner as much controversy as me thinking Bethesda Fallout games despite numeroues issues are mostly good. But then again maybe some people agree with me *shrug*
     
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  17. R.Graves

    R.Graves Confirmed Retard

    Apr 21, 2016
    I never liked the Mona Lisa. Hugely overrated IMO.
    What, like, right now? Or after I've seen the thing?
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
  18. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    The Crash Bandicoot remakes look like trash, they hired someone who probably just makes generic furries and they didn't bother to translate the cartoony Looney Tunes style stretchiness and exageration of the Original Crash and instead they just made a furry in jeans with sluggish animations.

    The logic behind feeling attacked by Black Lives matter is like, you get shot in the stomach and you are trying to get help, you ask a person to please help you get a doctor because someone shot you and you are in pain and they respond "And What about people who haven't gotten shot? They don't deserve help then? Fuck you!".
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
  19. R.Graves

    R.Graves Confirmed Retard

    Apr 21, 2016
    I never got this interpretation. In the original fallout there's a lot of inspiration coming from the 50s sure but also the 70s, 80s, and 90s.
     
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  20. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Most of the aethetics in FO1 and 2 are pretty 90's. Sure they do have a small thinge of retrofuturism (small, not the vomit of IT JUST THE FERFTERS WITH REBERTS! Bethesda keeps pushing) but for the most part shit is mostly mad Max and Image comics. Most of FO4's character are so poorly written the only thing they have going for them is some weak voice gimmick, like Valentine.
     
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