US considers use of nuclear weapons against Iran

[Mad Max RW]

We're already using nuclear weapons regularly. What do you think makes all our bombs and tank/artillery shells so effective? Depleted Uranium. Unfortunately the word "depleted" doesn't make it any less dangerous. So far we've left thousands of tons of highly radioactive fallout all over Iraq. That's a fraction of Chernobyl.

I say go ahead and use full fledged atomic bombs or no bombs at all.

 

[Roshambo]

We're already using nuclear weapons regularly. What do you think makes all our bombs and tank/artillery shells so effective? Depleted Uranium. Unfortunately the word "depleted" doesn't make it any less dangerous.

So you're trying to equate lumps of uranium and uranium particulate on the same level as a nuclear reactive detonation.

Ookay...

Still, depleted uranium is one of the ways that the US is trying to slip nuclear weapons under the Geneva Conventions by this, and it's still dangerous to use them.

They just doesn't open a half-century old can of worms...

So far we've left thousands of tons of highly radioactive fallout all over Iraq. That's a fraction of Chernobyl.

I say go ahead and use full fledged atomic bombs or no bombs at all.

Sure, and then when everyone has the "okay" to use them because one side already sparked off a mushroom cloud, good luck hunting in the supermarket after that, because there won't be one left.

Speaking of WMDs...

 

[Paladin Solo]

An unfriendly foreign country owning nukes will tend to make people nervous. Sometimes, for the right reasons.

Selling/giving/losing nukes to rogue states/terrorists/guerrilla forces

Starting a limited/all-out nuclear war with another country

Threating said country with nukes

Now, in the case of Iran, they don't have nukes yet, and say they don't want it. If Bush has certain evidence that Iran does have some, or wants to/is making some, and can prove it without doubt (like Iraq), then he has a point. But, frankly, I think we're focusing too much attention on Iran, when we should be worried about Iraq and Afghanistan first. Hell, we focused too much on Iraq, when we should've finished our job in Afghanistan first. But, like Bush himself stated,

"I'll let the next president deal with it." - Bush on when U.S. troops will come back home from Iraq

Then again, if it's oil we want (we want it), it's oil we get (we're getting it). And what a better way to pay for it than with blood? After all, it is American tradition to pay for things in such ways.

 

[welsh]

W inherited a policy to remove Saddam from Clinton, and then used the 9-11 attacks to get the momentum to actually pull it off. Wesley Clarke said as much on the Bill Mahr prior to the last election.

Rationalizing it as the desire to end the spread of WMD was just salesmanship to get the US to actually do the smack down. But that's not the first time the President had to sell a war. The president had to sell the US on going into Vietnam, for going into World War 2 and World War 1.

One of the cool things about America is that, the US doesn't want to send its kids to get blown to hell in some fucked up war.

An unfriendly foreign country owning nukes will tend to make people nervous. Sometimes, for the right reasons.

This is called the security dilemma.

see also-
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~olau/ir/archive/jer8.pdf

Unfriendly? Fuck.
What the hell do you think the Cold War was about.

Selling/giving/losing nukes to rogue states/terrorists/guerrilla forces

So what? Are you going to point the "naughty" finger to the Russians for giving Iran nuclear technology?
The Chinese for helping the North Koreans in getting the bomb?

But then are you also going to point the "naughty finger" at the French helping the Israelis get the bomb and the US turning a blind eye as the Pakistanis get the big boom?

And what the fuck does that "naughty finger" do for you.

'Rogue State' basically is a state that tells the status quo to fuck off. It's that or be marginalized. But in giving the status quo the big finger, those in control get to monopolize power = good politics for some.

Terrorist/guerrilla forces? Let's leave those options to the fantasies of Homeland Security- for them to do something when they are not doing cyber sex with 14 year old girls.

Oh wait ! National Security!!! Get rid of illegal immigration.
Jesus fuck. Get rid of these assholes in Homeland Security first.

Starting a limited/all-out nuclear war with another country

What is your point. THere has only been one nuclear attack on another country ever- thanks to the US dropping a couple Atomic bombs on Japan.

And sorry if this is politically insensitive, but those fuckers deserved it.

Threating said country with nukes

Perhaps you were not born during the Cold War, but ever Truman told Stalin "Hey Joe, we got this big ass bomb" at Potsdam the main use of nukes has been to threatened their use against another country.

Now, in the case of Iran, they don't have nukes yet, and say they don't want it. If Bush has certain evidence that Iran does have some, or wants to/is making some, and can prove it without doubt (like Iraq), then he has a point.

Jesus. How the fuck can you trust W again? How can anyone trust the proof of the US?

The US goes before the UN and says, "Hey Security Council buddies. We got this evidence that Iran has these nukes. See look at these pictures of tractors in the desert.."

The fucking French, Germans, Chinese and Russians won't stop laughing.

You can only pull that stunt off once. If you get caught in the lie, it's mud on your face.

But, frankly, I think we're focusing too much attention on Iran, when we should be worried about Iraq and Afghanistan first. Hell, we focused too much on Iraq, when we should've finished our job in Afghanistan first. But, like Bush himself stated,

"I'll let the next president deal with it." - Bush on when U.S. troops will come back home from Iraq

Then again, if it's oil we want (we want it), it's oil we get (we're getting it). And what a better way to pay for it than with blood? After all, it is American tradition to pay for things in such ways.

Yes, except the oil pipelines keep getting blown up, and because the flow of oil is unstable the price stay up. How much do you pay for gas?

 

[Paladin Solo]

Before reading on, realize that nowhere in my previous post did I blindly condemn anyone or blindly support anyone. I know that I came off as a nationalist when I first joined, but for fuck's sake, stop thinking of me as such now.

Unfriendly? Fuck.
What the hell do you think the Cold War was about.

An arms race.

So what? Are you going to point the "naughty" finger to the Russians for giving Iran nuclear technology?
The Chinese for helping the North Koreans in getting the bomb?

Yes.

But then are you also going to point the "naughty finger" at the French helping the Israelis get the bomb and the US turning a blind eye as the Pakistanis get the big boom?

Israel poses no threat to the U.S. BUT, before replying, understand that what I just said is a fact, and not opinion. Of course Americans aren't going to point fingers at our allies. This was the entire argument of my previous post. I did not lay down my personal opinions on the matter other than when I said we should ease up on Iran. But, since you're asking me in this particular case, the situation in Israel/Palestine is a real shitty one. The Soviets picked their allies in the Middle East, the U.S. just made theirs from dirt. But the true dilemma here is what do we do now? I was not alive when Israel was formed. I think the situation will have to be played out through diplomacy, but as you can see, that's much easier said than done.

And what the fuck does that "naughty finger" do for you.

Welsh, where the fuck do you see me pointing fingers in my previous post?

Terrorist/guerrilla forces? Let's leave those options to the fantasies of Homeland Security- for them to do something when they are not doing cyber sex with 14 year old girls.

Fantasies? First, they don't have to be hostile towards the U.S. to create shitstorms, second, the things you don't know, are not necessarily fantasy.

Oh wait ! National Security!!! Get rid of illegal immigration.
Jesus fuck. Get rid of these assholes in Homeland Security first.

This country was founded by immigrants. I support immigration. As for Homeland Security. (WARNING, THE FOLLOWING IS NOT OPINION, SO DON'T FUCKING QUOTE IT AS SUCH) If people sleep safe at night, it's all the matters. Doesn't matter what fairyland-like dreams they may have about personal rights.

What is your point. THere has only been one nuclear attack on another country ever- thanks to the US dropping a couple Atomic bombs on Japan.

What is your point? Just because it happened once, it won't happen again? Again, where are you getting these accusations from? Or are you just generally saying?

And sorry if this is politically insensitive, but those fuckers deserved it.

Aye.

Perhaps you were not born during the Cold War, but ever Truman told Stalin "Hey Joe, we got this big ass bomb" at Potsdam the main use of nukes has been to threatened their use against another country.

What's your point? Nowhere have I stated that the U.S. is in a position of right to have nukes when noone else can. ANY nuke from ANY country including those from my own make me nervous.

Jesus. How the fuck can you trust W again? How can anyone trust the proof of the US?

UGHGHGHGHGHG! Where do you get this from?????!!!!!

Yes, except the oil pipelines keep getting blown up, and because the flow of oil is unstable the price stay up. How much do you pay for gas?

The fact that gas prices are ultimately destined to go up does not mean a war for oil makes it worse for the country that acquires those resources.

 

[Tannhauser]

(WARNING, THE FOLLOWING IS NOT OPINION, SO DON'T FUCKING QUOTE IT AS SUCH) If people sleep safe at night, it's all the matters. Doesn't matter what fairyland-like dreams they may have about personal rights.

The use of caps lock has utterly prevented any rebuttal on that point. Why, the entirety of political philosophy will have no choice but to acknowledge security as paramount because of your "THIS IS A FACT" argument.

 

[Mad Max RW]

We've already destoyed so much shit in Iraq with all our bombs and cruise missiles. If we were launched into another major war, such as with Iran, there would be no choice but to use our nuclear weapons. They can only build those super expensive pin point accuracy bombs so quickly. Lob a few nukes and the war will be over quick. Tactically that would be the better move.

People don't understand how much time and money goes into making these weapons. We can't afford to restock what was already wasted on a country that posed no threat. The US is in a very vulnerable position right now.

Oh, and don't expect us to use massive city destroying nukes. It's gonna be smaller tactical ones. That's what we perfected over the decades. Russia has the ones that'll wipe out half of England in a single strike. With the Soviet Union gone, the threat of a full scale retaliation if we use a few small nuclear weapons in Iran is diminished significantly,

 

[Elissar]

Except for perhaps those few nukes that russia may have let fall into the hands of midle eastern countries, or that china or northkorea may have let slip here and there, not saying they did per say, but it's a possability. and if we use nukes, whats stopping those other nukes from being used against the US or it's allies?

 

[Brother None]

Except for perhaps those few nukes that russia may have let fall into the hands of midle eastern countries, or that china or northkorea may have let slip here and there, not saying they did per say, but it's a possability. and if we use nukes, whats stopping those other nukes from being used against the US or it's allies?

Only pure idiocy could have kept Islamists from already procuring a dirty bomb from the Russian black market.

Shit, you can just head for Omsk Oblast with a shovel and a 4x4 and you'll have the materials for a dirty bomb before the day is through. Not very healthy, but somehow I don't think those martyr-types care.

To be worried about terrorists gaining nukes through Iran is more inane than worrying about Iraq's WMDs.

 

[Paladin Solo]

The use of caps lock has utterly prevented any rebuttal on that point. Why, the entirety of political philosophy will have no choice but to acknowledge security as paramount because of your "THIS IS A FACT" argument.

People tend to like to feel secure. Even if it's a delusion, if it's sold to us as a reality, it tends to work. That's a fact. Mom's and dad's across the world don't like putting their families in danger, and will probably sell out to the highest bidder offering, sometimes fictuous safety. Hell, we didn't want our Arab allies owning some of our ports for a reason.

Paranoia often has a strong hold on those with power.

 

[welsh]

Why use small nukes when you an reduce the danger of ethnic resistance to US imperialism by whole sale holocaust.

Seriously. US troops have been shot up in lovely little Iraqi cities up and down the Tigris Euphrates... why allow more of that when you can completely vaporize any threat of resistance with a big bomb.

Face it, democracy is too difficult. Kharn has argued that the Muslims aren't up for it. I would guess that most Europe agrees. The US certainly has shown little competence in creating democracy So why bother. If we want the oil, why not just depopulate the country.

I realize that sounds pretty harsh. But let's be honest, the history of imperialism has been one in which-

(1) if its affordable to wipe out the indigenous inhabitants- do so. Consider for instance the spread of the US and the destruction of the American Indians. The US could wipe them out because it was cheap. Ditto other indigenous people all over the Americas. Ditto Australia.

(2) Where it's not viable to wipe out a population, the imperialist either tries to settle and control the dominant economic good- see for instance Southern African settler colonies, or rules indirectly.

With nukes we basically remove the problem of civil insurgency by wiping out any local civilization. No ethnic war, because the ethnicities are vaporized. No insurgency, because they are all radiated dust in the nuclear wind.

Besides nukes are cheap. We've already got them and they will only get rusty.

And yes, by dropping the bomb we basically give incentives for others to do likewise. But if that was the only real disincentive, well that's pretty weak.

In Cuba, peace was managed because neither side wanted to nuke each other, and each side had the power to go all the way. The Russians didn't think war was worth nukes in Cuba, the US didn't think war with Russia was worth nukes in Turkey.

In the '73 crisis the Soviets backed down because the US looked like they'd go nuclear if the Soviets sent troops to Egypt. The Russians figured it wasn't worth it.

WHen the Russians asked the US whether we'd mind if they went to war with China in the late 1960s, Nixon said "fuck ya" and then started playing ping-pong with the Chinese and the Russians didn't nuke them. Maybe that was a big mistake.

So the reasons why countries don't go to nuclear war is because-
(1) The goodies are no good if they are radiated.
(2) there is a significant likelihood that the other side will hit back with enough violence and damage that the starting the war isn't worth it.

Go back to the nuclear calculation and do the numbers. Moral weight only counts if you're Japanese and you cry at Hiroshima. It only matters if you don't have the bomb, but then, if you don't than you are subject to those who do.

You know, we've kept the nuclear genie in the bottle for about 60 years now. Knowledge of the genie's magic has gone to a few countries since then. Maybe we need a little nuclear firestorm just to see how bad these fucking things really are.

And who would deter the US from doing it? The Russians? Iran isn't worth it. The Europeans- could care less. The Chinese won't risk it.

Pale Hores- Be quiet and don't take things too personally. Sensitivity is fine if you're a chick or a fag, but really... and try to think, it's good exercise.

(1) the arms race came after the start of the cold war

(2) The US also relied on British colonial control over the Persian Gulf and then we inherited the Shah of Iran- thus the reason the Iranians call us "Great Satan"

(3) Pointing the "naughty finger" at anyone doesn't mean jack shit but will make you look like a fag or a chick.

(4) If all that matters to you is security, go back to Hobbes and forget Locke and otherwise shut the fuck up.

Because the thing about security, is the question isn't personal security but what you're trying to secure. Security is always about what is morally important to you.

If you don't appreciate that civil rights are worth dieing for, than I suggest you bend over and pucker up for the next facist prick who wants to fuck you up the ass.

Oh... and you can find out more about that from your friends at Homeland Security.

Seriously, those assholes can't protect our ports, they can't fix New Orleans... what the fuck are they good for? What the fuck do they really do?

But hey, Pale, if you want to trust your safety and welfare to them, go you. In the meantime, I suggest you put on some earphones and play more computer games and stroke off to internet porn, and in the process put yourself to sleep and ignore the shit that's been coming down for the past few years. It's too complicated for you. And besides, by what you've posted in the thread above, it's clear to the rest of us that you'll just swallow up any crap the government shoves down your throat.

Even if it happens to Be W's fat cock, because you wouldn't know the difference anyway.

Go you.

UGHGHGHGHGHG!

What are you? A ten year old who just discovered how to ejaculate?

@Mad Max- Shut the Fuck Up. You're dumber than Pale Horse.

Afford? WTF? Where do you think those tax dollars go? And there's nothing like a vulnerable position to encourage more defense spending. More defense spending = more mercantilistic opportunity.

Oh and more mercantilistic opportunity is another way of getting you to bend over, pucker up and take it up the ass.

Why? Because mercantilism goes hand in hand with authoritarianism. And a corporatist authoritarian state = _______?

@ Elli-
A few loose nukes..... might be a slap in the face to the US that forces it to wake up at the fuck-up that we've allowed this world to become.

Because we could have dealt with the loose nuke problem, but we fucked that up because we were too damn cheap.

That's not really W's fault. That goes back to how we decided to take care of Russia after the wall came down. But basically it goes back to what Alec said before- we're cheap and now we got to pay for it.

I think it's absolutely amazing. The US was such a cool country before 9-11. And because a prick who lives in a cave decided to hurt us, we've gotten into this fucking mess. Jesus... you got to hand it to Osama, that prick. I hope he burns in fucking hell, and when he's done, I hope he burns again.

Still I am glad that some folks in the Military are finally realizing that Bush and his band are complete fuck ups. Maybe next time they will vote wiser for it.

Probably not.

 

[Mad Max RW]

I find it ironic you use civil rights to defend your argument yet condemn "fags and chicks". Funny stuff.

And being able to afford it is, in fact, a big problem. The US can't afford to fight such massive wars by itself. No country can. That's precisely what ruined the Soviet Union. That among many other things, but it was a huge factor. We have never been as isolated in war as we are right now.

Few realize this, but the so called missing Soviet nuclear weapons that rogue states, terrorist nations, whatever *might* have don't last forever. These things need constant maintenance. The only places you can find technicians advanced enough to work them are in nuclear countries already. If any terrorist or some crazy fuck had this stuff they would have used it already.

 

[Brother None]

Kharn has argued that the Muslims aren't up for it.

I find this summary of my viewpoint fairly unrepresentative, at best.

"Ready" (or "up") has nothing to do with it. "Ready" presumes democracy is some kind of automatic high point of all possible cultures we have on earth. "Ready" presumes it is universally applicable no matter the situation. Such presumptions are silly.

Besides which, you'll remember my main problem was with cutting-and-pasting Western democracy and slapping it on the Middle East and then pretending nothing happened. This just leads to Hamas-esque situations.

You remind me of my politicology professor. Democracy isn't the highest point of culture by its own definition. It is generally a good idea to actually look, practically, at the effects of a political system before applying it haphazerdly.

Also, being a muslim or not has fuck-all to do with it. India, while a shitty democracy, is not a failure of the democratic model, nor is Indonesia. Islam has nothing to do with it.

(1) The goodies are no good if they are radiated.
(2) there is a significant likelihood that the other side will hit back with enough violence and damage that the starting the war isn't worth it.

(3) Long-term thinking shows the net gains are far outpaced by the net losses.

This applies to all attacks, though, and it fairly obvious that the losses on Iraq and Afghanistan both will outpace any gains, unless democracy magically manifests and maintains itself in the Middle East.

Moral weight only counts if you're Japanese and you cry at Hiroshima.

I...see...

I find it ironic you use civil rights to defend your argument yet condemn "fags and chicks". Funny stuff.

He's not usually like this. I'm guessing he's on the rag or something.

And being able to afford it is, in fact, a big problem. The US can't afford to fight such massive wars by itself. No country can. That's precisely what ruined the Soviet Union. That among many other things, but it was a huge factor. We have never been as isolated in war as we are right now.

This has been brought up many times and welsh scoffing at it surprises me at least.

The US is making its own fall on the long-term inevitable. On the short-term it won't happen because the powergiants of the new world will prop up the US' economy while they're still dependant on it. That won't last, though.

 

[welsh]

I am on the rag. Go back through the posts and you'll find that I support women's rights, and support gay rights, and fuck if I didn't cry in Brokeback.

All this talk of "the costs" of war suggests that the US couldn't afford it. That's silly. The US could afford it. The US has never gone to war and had such low taxes, at least not in the history of income tax.

And yes, I know that nukes need to be maintained. What I wonder is how many loose nukes really exist or is this more smoke being blown up our ass by homeland security.

You see, because that's how W and his cronies work. They scare you. They tell you that the terrorists are a big fucking threat, when anyone with have a brain knows its not terrorists that will fuck us but the environment. But whose polluting the environment- W and buddies.

This goes back to Alec's point. You want your MTV, your game consols, your cheap music, your internet porn but you get squeamish when the state goes nasty on a bunch of unlucky motherfuckers who just happen to live in a desert atop of a whole lot of oil.

Fucking cheap symapthy.

And you bend over for the State when it says be scared.
And you worry about lots of bullshit issues that you think threaten your quality of life, but the problem isn't the issues.

It' you.
It's you're fucking laziness
It's your fucking compromise,
It's your fucking fear
It's your fucking choices.

Do I really advocate nuking the crap out of the middle east for some oil? Please.
But that's what this is leading to.
ANd why-
Go back to what Alec said.
It's your fucking choices.
So don't get all pussy about it now.

WHy not nuke Iran? They can't really hit back.

Hey, the US got a woody when W said "shock and awe". So where are the fireword. I wasn't shocked or awed.

Nuke Tehran and I will be shocked and awed.
Shocked that the US let this happened,
Awed at the remarkable stupidity of the US.

Maybe then, when the rest of the world realizes how fucked up the US is, they will finally pull the rug out from under US and adios the internet porn, the MTV, the gamecubes and all the other crap you've let rot your fucking mind.

And maybe then people in the US will start thinking again.

But probably not.
We can blame all our problems on the fags and the illegals.

 

[Roshambo]

If you don't appreciate that civil rights are worth dieing for, than I suggest you bend over and pucker up for the next facist prick who wants to fuck you up the ass.

Oh... and you can find out more about that from your friends at Homeland Security.

Seriously, those assholes can't protect our ports, they can't fix New Orleans... what the fuck are they good for? What the fuck do they really do?

But hey, Pale, if you want to trust your safety and welfare to them, go you. In the meantime, I suggest you put on some earphones and play more computer games and stroke off to internet porn, and in the process put yourself to sleep and ignore the shit that's been coming down for the past few years.

Like sheep.

 

[Paladin Solo]

Pale Hores- Be quiet and don't take things too personally. Sensitivity is fine if you're a chick or a fag, but really... and try to think, it's good exercise.

(3) Pointing the "naughty finger" at anyone doesn't mean jack shit but will make you look like a fag or a chick.

What in the bowels of hell are you talking about? Come to think of it, are you drunk?

(4) If all that matters to you is security, go back to Hobbes and forget Locke and otherwise shut the fuck up.

Because the thing about security, is the question isn't personal security but what you're trying to secure. Security is always about what is morally important to you.

Where the fuck did I say it was important to me or it was all that mattered to me? I said people tend to want to feel secure.

If you don't appreciate that civil rights are worth dieing for, than I suggest you bend over and pucker up for the next facist prick who wants to fuck you up the ass.

Jesus H. Christ on a fucking pogo stick. WHERE the fuck are you getting this from?

Seriously, those assholes can't protect our ports, they can't fix New Orleans... what the fuck are they good for? What the fuck do they really do?

They sell us really good lies. What did you expect? (Now don't fucking go and quote me on this. I nowhere am saying I like that.)

But hey, Pale, if you want to trust your safety and welfare to them, go you. In the meantime, I suggest you put on some earphones and play more computer games and stroke off to internet porn, and in the process put yourself to sleep and ignore the shit that's been coming down for the past few years. It's too complicated for you. And besides, by what you've posted in the thread above, it's clear to the rest of us that you'll just swallow up any crap the government shoves down your throat.

You know all that talk about taking things personal, and acting emotional? Yeah, that's fucking you righ tnow. Learn to fucking read what I post if you're going to try and insult me.

Even if it happens to Be W's fat cock, because you wouldn't know the difference anyway.

You've seen his cock?

Go you.

Bow, bitch.

Oh and more mercantilistic opportunity is another way of getting you to bend over, pucker up and take it up the ass.

You know, you sure do like to talk about ass-ramming a lot.

Edit:

Let me fucking explain myself, and my goddamned post before you go and piss your pants over misquotes Welsh.

I support immigration. This country was founded by immigrants.

I support women, they make my engine pur.

I dislike fags. But, fuck it, they have a right to live how they want, and if that means marriage, let them get married.

Iran is not the fucking problem, and neither was Iraq.

A war for oil is in demand despite what people might "personally" "feel" about it.

I would die for your rights, and mine.

I don't think security is all that matters, but apparently, a lot of fucking Americans though. Unless W won because of his "fat cock" as you would put it. Personally, I think he won because he was the better man. (Both of them are a bad choice, but the lesser of two evils, man. I would've voted (was too young) for Bush because I know how he's going to fuck up my country, instead of trying to guess how Kerry would do it.)

I do not support nuking any country unless absolutely necessary (for example, Japan's will to fight to the last fucking child to keep the Americans off their soil), or if said country uses nukes first on us/someone else.

I'll take a taco over a hot dog any day.

 

[Elissar]

WHy not nuke Iran? They can't really hit back.

Because in the end welsh, that would make us no different from any of the other countries who thought of genocide as a viable solution to their problems.

 

[Paladin Solo]

Nice sig elly.

 

[Elissar]

Thanks it doesnt look as good on my class A's though, gotta get a custom rack built because i'm so small framed that my lapel almost completely covers the air medal.

 

[Paladin Solo]

i'm so small framed that my lapel almost completely covers the air medal.

Heh...