USA elections
- Thread starter Briosafreak
- Start date
First time out of the vault
welsh said:
Come down to my inconsistent neck of the woods - the only county that carried Kerry was Buchanan (which is the armpit of Virginia) yet House candidate Triplett - who crowed the Bush party line almost to the letter and played up "old King Coal" - lost to Rick Boucher (Demo incumbent since '82) by 20%. Boucher votes pretty liberal.
MrSmileyFaceDude
First time out of the vault
MrMarcus said:
Actually a few counties in Virginia carried Kerry, among them Fairfax county & city, Richmond, and Norfolk.
Hey there Mr. Smiley. Local interest, right?
Well, I voted in Fairfax. It's no surprise that it went to Kerry really.
Well, I voted in Fairfax. It's no surprise that it went to Kerry really.
Bradylama
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
MrMarcus said:
A lot of people still believe in voting for the opposing party's candidate in the respective elections. A vote for a Republican president means a vote for a Democratic senator, and vice versa.
The purpose being, of course, to keep one party from controlling both the Executive and Legislative branches. Didn't quite work out this time, though.
At least the Democrats have the power of the fillibuster.
welsh
Junkmaster
It's true that a few counties voted Kerry but look at what those counties are.
Fairfax- a suburb of DC,
Richmond- largely minority
Norfolk- also largely urban working class.
Even Henrico county went Bush. Look at the map and the counties get redder as you West- more rural "conservate" counties.
Two things to consider about this election.
First, the last election was a close one, and the country seemed pretty moderate. This election the voting was very conservative. Has the country moved far to the right over all or is it still moderate. Against Bush's electoral success you have to measure the general disapproval with his policies. But then you have this massive electoral turn out.
Then you have to think of the gay marriage issues. Eleven states passed rules against gay marriage. That's not so shocking when you think that civil liberties are usually forced by court decision, and not popularly voted on. But that would suggest that there is a large population of folks that feel either very religious about this issue or don't like homosexuals.
Or maybe the US is going fundamentalist in a democratic way.
Fairfax- a suburb of DC,
Richmond- largely minority
Norfolk- also largely urban working class.
Even Henrico county went Bush. Look at the map and the counties get redder as you West- more rural "conservate" counties.
Two things to consider about this election.
First, the last election was a close one, and the country seemed pretty moderate. This election the voting was very conservative. Has the country moved far to the right over all or is it still moderate. Against Bush's electoral success you have to measure the general disapproval with his policies. But then you have this massive electoral turn out.
Then you have to think of the gay marriage issues. Eleven states passed rules against gay marriage. That's not so shocking when you think that civil liberties are usually forced by court decision, and not popularly voted on. But that would suggest that there is a large population of folks that feel either very religious about this issue or don't like homosexuals.
Or maybe the US is going fundamentalist in a democratic way.
welsh
Junkmaster
Bradylama said:
I would disagree that it's a failure of democracy. In fact I haven't heard that yet. Rather, it signals a couple of things-
-The republicans were better at mobilizing their grassroots support
- the country is going conservative.
- perhaps the country is a afraid of gays and the Bravo Channel.
But yes, in 2000 a lot of votes were not counted and a lot of folks were dienfranchised from their right to vote. If that's not an afront to democracy, I am not sure what is. That he didn't win the popular vote was disturbing, especially in light of the electoral discrepencies in Florida.
This time Bush got the popular and electoral vote, and it suggests the country is moving to the right. Maybe the democrats are just getting sloppy. It seemed Kerry was too much on the defense and Bush had much of the initiative. Or maybe it's because we're at war and people don't want to change the leadership.
Bush still has high disapproval ratings, even if he won the vote. That suggest that what got people voting was that they were more afraid of the values being presented by the Democrats, and perhaps the most significant was the "gay right to marriage."
We've had that discussion before. What does it mean when you take an individuals right to partake in a civil right that is protected under the substantive due process clause, and you take that right away merely because of his sexual preference? It's a violation of equal protection. But then violations of equal protection and the discrimination against individuals has been a consistent trend in popular elections.
Bradylama, taking a page from the Republican ticket and putting words in someone else's mouth and lieing about it? I don't care if you want to be an asshole or if you're working at being an asshole, but don't start a personal flame fest here.
Yes, there are plenty of Democrats who follow the party line. But that's true across the board. Party loyalty explains a lot of voter turn out and participation. There are die hard Republicans or Democrats. Blacks, women, most minorities find strong affinity towards Democrats because the Democrats are more willing to take their concerns seriously. Not surprisingly, many intellectuals also favor democratic tendencies- which is why the Northeast goes liberal.
Are the Democrats more enlightened? Well they aren't as conservative for sure. If you look at the notions of expanding civil liberities, reducing poverty, protecting the environment, and social progress towards equality - you will find more of the major developments come through democratic tenure. If you want more environmental damage, tax cuts to the rich, big business influence in politics, and the use of traditional values- you find that in the republicans.
Which is more enlightened? Which stands for more social progress to a better society? That depends on your values. If you want more church in school, if you don't think gay people are entitled to equal rights, if you want more tax cuts for the wealthy, less equality in society- then go republican. I don't buy that line, so I go democrat.
And that's why you normally find more democrats in urban developed areas and more republicans in rural traditional areas. IF you doubt it, look at the electoral map and figure it out. One of the great divisions in the US now is between progressive liberal city folk and traditional conservative country folk.
Thus Bradylama- by your own words you say-
bob_the_rambler
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
this ia a little off point but, i believe that if kerry's supporters would have taken on a more conservative outlook they would have gotten more votes and probably have won. the fact is that this country is swinging more and more to the right, and liberalism is distasteful to (obviously) the public. i will give kerry credit however because he took his loss and walked away with good "sportsmanship".
The Old Dominion
The Old Dominion
Having spend my ""Wonder Years"" in the Commonwealth of Virginia, I am no stranger to rural counties and the conservative electorate in general ""out voting"" the 'urbane' devotees of Babylon.
Counties out voting the cities.
Saw the same conservative activism in Washington State when I chose to "leave it" rather than "love it"; "IT" being the state of Washington, Jefferson, Lee, Jackson, and Jim Crow. Saw the same conservative activism that was not tainted by "southern traditions". Late 1970's, Whatcom county voters would consistently out vote the City of Bellingham on particular issues or candidates. "Out West", I encountered conservatives that were more about individual liberties and responsibilities than personal wealth enhancement, and scapegoating and exploiting minorities. Reagan's election did not "worry" me as much. All wistful nostalgia aside, sometime in that era, Reagan made some choices that made him an American president and not a Republican El Presidentee.
It was hard for me to "get" the fundamentalist message in Virginia when that 'party line' of the '50's, 60's, and 70's, appeared to endorse racism, antiCatholicism , dirt low wages, and NO one man one vote. More the divine right of kings than the Divinity of the Trinity . That era's "states rights" issue decreed Henrico County and the City of Richmond as the - ONE - TRUE - "shining city on the hill" and delegated me to the "white trash" dust bin of wage slavery.
Out of one side of the "states rights" mouth, the interference of the Federal Government was decried, and from the other side of the muzzle, there was a SUCKING in of every FEDERAL Defense dollar in reach. Even in the '90's I heard bragging about all the "new" industry Virginia was "responsible" for, and wondered how much of that was still Defense based or from northern corporations migrating south for lower wages, less environmental obligations, and "negotiated" tax advantages. Such carpetbag corporations are destined to keep moving, destined to be 'out sourced', just like the textile industry. Without the generations of Federal defense dollars, and "King Coal", the Commonwealth might have been just as hard luck an agrarian state like Mississippi.
So politicians claiming legitimacy because of their christian values, are free to do just that. And, I am free to 'believe' it, when I SEE it. I can respect them for THE WORD, and I can wait to judge them by their WORKS. This is not a 'faith' based contract, this is a REALITY based agreement.
I am free to 'believe' it, when I SEE it.
Election 2004 in Ohio.
I scanned the voter results in Ohio online, and before my eyes glazed over, I think I saw that the total percentage of voter turn out for rural counties was higher than the "city" counties.
In the "city" county of Franklin County, the impact of large voter turn out was compounded by the lack of voting machines on the local precinct level. The typical Ohio State authorities pass the buck on this issue > just like for school funding <. Franklin County did not have parity of resources from precinct to precinct.
I was present before the polls opened and had about a 50 minute wait, when the line a started. For precinct 4E, 5 voting machines. There were long lines through the day in my part of the county. There were no long lines in my part of 'town' at the end of the voting day. Other precincts, just down the street in the -State Capital- the City of Columbus had TWO voting machines for this Presidential election when they had SIX for the primaries. Those Americans waited for hours to vote. Some had to bail for job and family reasons.
Showed up and could not vote.
Maybe not enough to change the out come, AND remember this is OHIO: Issue 1 ("Queer Fear") and the Republican Senator won by over 60% each, the president thing was "about" 51 - 49 , or 52 - 48, or whatever. There were REPUBLICAN, democratic, AND independent votes that were prevented from being cast because of the status quo RATIONING of resources.
Once again Americans went to vote and were denied the right, by an established system that rations the resources of the nation. Not a very - sexy - ,hot button, MORAL issue, what ever smoke screen of VALUES one claims. The ABILITY to vote is delegated to the cold shadows of benign neglect.
Democrats claim the working poor as a constituency, but seem more concerned about stemming the tide of ""Queer Fear"" and massaging Celebrity Feminists then the fundamental DEMOCRATIC right to cast a vote, and HAVE IT COUNTED.
Some Ohioans never got their absentee ballots, they had to drive hours to their precincts to vote. Some Ohioans had voted for years in the same precinct but were bumped from the voter rolls by mean spirited challenges from Republican Activists.
The provisional ballot became the only recourse for thousands, and it will be interesting to see how many are validated and how well they follow the 51 - 49 split.
The Republican Governor 'delegated' the voting resource issue to 'the local' authorities.
The Republican controlled state legislature seem content with the status quo, and playing footsie with the Republican Governor in deficit spending for their pet budgets. I doubt they will do anything, aside from evasive cop outs.
Secretary of State Blackwell has 'nominal' over sight of state voting, if he chooses to be a cheerleader for the status quo.
If he truly has ambitions to be governor he might have to be pro active for the voting rights all Ohioans, if he hopes, or "needs' the votes of those that could not
get to a voting booth in 2004.
4too
The Old Dominion
Having spend my ""Wonder Years"" in the Commonwealth of Virginia, I am no stranger to rural counties and the conservative electorate in general ""out voting"" the 'urbane' devotees of Babylon.
Counties out voting the cities.
Saw the same conservative activism in Washington State when I chose to "leave it" rather than "love it"; "IT" being the state of Washington, Jefferson, Lee, Jackson, and Jim Crow. Saw the same conservative activism that was not tainted by "southern traditions". Late 1970's, Whatcom county voters would consistently out vote the City of Bellingham on particular issues or candidates. "Out West", I encountered conservatives that were more about individual liberties and responsibilities than personal wealth enhancement, and scapegoating and exploiting minorities. Reagan's election did not "worry" me as much. All wistful nostalgia aside, sometime in that era, Reagan made some choices that made him an American president and not a Republican El Presidentee.
It was hard for me to "get" the fundamentalist message in Virginia when that 'party line' of the '50's, 60's, and 70's, appeared to endorse racism, antiCatholicism , dirt low wages, and NO one man one vote. More the divine right of kings than the Divinity of the Trinity . That era's "states rights" issue decreed Henrico County and the City of Richmond as the - ONE - TRUE - "shining city on the hill" and delegated me to the "white trash" dust bin of wage slavery.
Out of one side of the "states rights" mouth, the interference of the Federal Government was decried, and from the other side of the muzzle, there was a SUCKING in of every FEDERAL Defense dollar in reach. Even in the '90's I heard bragging about all the "new" industry Virginia was "responsible" for, and wondered how much of that was still Defense based or from northern corporations migrating south for lower wages, less environmental obligations, and "negotiated" tax advantages. Such carpetbag corporations are destined to keep moving, destined to be 'out sourced', just like the textile industry. Without the generations of Federal defense dollars, and "King Coal", the Commonwealth might have been just as hard luck an agrarian state like Mississippi.
So politicians claiming legitimacy because of their christian values, are free to do just that. And, I am free to 'believe' it, when I SEE it. I can respect them for THE WORD, and I can wait to judge them by their WORKS. This is not a 'faith' based contract, this is a REALITY based agreement.
I am free to 'believe' it, when I SEE it.
Election 2004 in Ohio.
I scanned the voter results in Ohio online, and before my eyes glazed over, I think I saw that the total percentage of voter turn out for rural counties was higher than the "city" counties.
In the "city" county of Franklin County, the impact of large voter turn out was compounded by the lack of voting machines on the local precinct level. The typical Ohio State authorities pass the buck on this issue > just like for school funding <. Franklin County did not have parity of resources from precinct to precinct.
I was present before the polls opened and had about a 50 minute wait, when the line a started. For precinct 4E, 5 voting machines. There were long lines through the day in my part of the county. There were no long lines in my part of 'town' at the end of the voting day. Other precincts, just down the street in the -State Capital- the City of Columbus had TWO voting machines for this Presidential election when they had SIX for the primaries. Those Americans waited for hours to vote. Some had to bail for job and family reasons.
Showed up and could not vote.
Maybe not enough to change the out come, AND remember this is OHIO: Issue 1 ("Queer Fear") and the Republican Senator won by over 60% each, the president thing was "about" 51 - 49 , or 52 - 48, or whatever. There were REPUBLICAN, democratic, AND independent votes that were prevented from being cast because of the status quo RATIONING of resources.
Once again Americans went to vote and were denied the right, by an established system that rations the resources of the nation. Not a very - sexy - ,hot button, MORAL issue, what ever smoke screen of VALUES one claims. The ABILITY to vote is delegated to the cold shadows of benign neglect.
Democrats claim the working poor as a constituency, but seem more concerned about stemming the tide of ""Queer Fear"" and massaging Celebrity Feminists then the fundamental DEMOCRATIC right to cast a vote, and HAVE IT COUNTED.
Some Ohioans never got their absentee ballots, they had to drive hours to their precincts to vote. Some Ohioans had voted for years in the same precinct but were bumped from the voter rolls by mean spirited challenges from Republican Activists.
The provisional ballot became the only recourse for thousands, and it will be interesting to see how many are validated and how well they follow the 51 - 49 split.
The Republican Governor 'delegated' the voting resource issue to 'the local' authorities.
The Republican controlled state legislature seem content with the status quo, and playing footsie with the Republican Governor in deficit spending for their pet budgets. I doubt they will do anything, aside from evasive cop outs.
Secretary of State Blackwell has 'nominal' over sight of state voting, if he chooses to be a cheerleader for the status quo.
If he truly has ambitions to be governor he might have to be pro active for the voting rights all Ohioans, if he hopes, or "needs' the votes of those that could not
get to a voting booth in 2004.
4too
Bradylama
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I could've sworn that somebody in this thread had said it, but I suppose I must've seen it on another forum. In any case, its a sentiment that seems to be shared by a large number of idiots, which is why I found it so funny.
How should I put this? The feeling many people give off (you included) seems to be that the problems in this country are all Republican-oriented. That every single person who votes Republican couldn't possibly be doing it for good reason, and that the Democratic vote is the only one people could have made with reason.
While you may not be thinking this, it certainly comes across in many of your posts, and others. Pinning all Republicans as morons seems to me like calling the kettle black. Republicans would have us all believe that Democrats are liberal pussies that have no idea how to run the country, and would drive us all into the ground, while Democrats (admittedly, Democratic politicians are better at not being douches about this stuff) would have everyone believe that the Republican is an inbred Jesus Freak, with a banjo in one hand, and a rifle in the other. Urban elitism is a clear indication of this kind of thinking.
Of course this was a very important election to a lot of people, and I don't blame them for being emotional about the results, and venting their anger. However, I can't just let emotions take the best of people. While these sentiments may be expressed temporarily, it does mean that on some level people believe them to be true.
What was that about towing the Party Line?
I don't doubt this. In fact, I've never doubted this. Though, I think its interesting how now you emphasize the nation's divisions at the moral level, whereas before you spoke mostly about the economic divide.
Um, yeah. I thought that was my entire point.
welsh
Junkmaster
so how did the voting go
Here is a little graph that explains who voted for what-
Here is a little graph that explains who voted for what-
Member of Khans
Vault Dweller
okay...
the beauty of a democratic process...
the people decided... but this time you can't say you had known nothing...
...will remind you of that when crying starts
the beauty of a democratic process...
the people decided... but this time you can't say you had known nothing...
...will remind you of that when crying starts
Canned Pork Shoulder
Canned Pork Shoulder
Warning.
Content out of context.
Warning: dangerous cultural stereotypes beyond this point.
B.:
Hey praise Jesus, but I confess that I don't 'hunt' cause it always seemed too much like work, but I can listen to anybody's hunting stories all afternoon and not get a bit tired.
Hey praise Jesus, but I confess that I had "lust in my heart" for a couple of first cousins, long ago before the cruelty of time made'em an ax handle or more across the flanks, ....
... so if I register as a republican to vote in the next Ohio rep. gubernatorial primary (2006) ..............
Where can I pick up my new Bible (King James PLEEZZe), that banjo, and that Bushmaster varmint gun?
Will leaving the TV tuned to the Fox Network expedite this transaction?
Will I have to give up the local NPR station, that'd be hard; they're the only ones that program real Bluegrass 4 to 6 hours EVERY Saturday and Sunday night?
http://www.wosu.org/am/bluegrass_ramble.php
""Ohhhhh ohhhh ohhhhh, IIII'mmm ah man of constant sorrow ....""
4too
Canned Pork Shoulder
Warning.
Content out of context.
Warning: dangerous cultural stereotypes beyond this point.
B.:
Hey praise Jesus, but I confess that I don't 'hunt' cause it always seemed too much like work, but I can listen to anybody's hunting stories all afternoon and not get a bit tired.
Hey praise Jesus, but I confess that I had "lust in my heart" for a couple of first cousins, long ago before the cruelty of time made'em an ax handle or more across the flanks, ....
... so if I register as a republican to vote in the next Ohio rep. gubernatorial primary (2006) ..............
Where can I pick up my new Bible (King James PLEEZZe), that banjo, and that Bushmaster varmint gun?
Will leaving the TV tuned to the Fox Network expedite this transaction?
Will I have to give up the local NPR station, that'd be hard; they're the only ones that program real Bluegrass 4 to 6 hours EVERY Saturday and Sunday night?
http://www.wosu.org/am/bluegrass_ramble.php
""Ohhhhh ohhhh ohhhhh, IIII'mmm ah man of constant sorrow ....""
4too
One of my friends sent me this: Breakdown of average state IQ and which candidate won. He didn't mention where he got it so I can't verify if it's correct or not. It certainly does reinforce the belief that a lot of people have now that we are a country ruled by morons though.
Bradylama
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Didn't the IQ go out of style already?
Bradylama
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Good point.
Bradylama said:
I think that they found it works sometimes but then there are those who simply suck at the test to gauge it and those who whip right through them. It can be used with other forms of testing though and it's still fairly good at scaling people. As far as that chart goes though... Eheh... - Colt
calculon000
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
I don't know what it's like in the USA, but in Canada, after the IQ went out of style, we came up with this system of "different types of intelligence". Some people are good linguists while others are good at logic. There are also categories for math, creativity, ect.
I love that chart.
I love that chart.