V.A.T.S. is NOT a combat system
- Thread starter HoKa
- Start date
HoKa said:
I'm not sure how much of it was "on purpose". It could have been overlooked by the devs. It is possible that the programmers were unable to make it any better. It could be intentional dumbing down. But as long as it is allowed within the system you cannot identify it as unfair. Think chess promotion: it gives you huge advantage over your opponent. A cheat? Certainly not.
The fact that only player can use the mechanic is well, there, because it's a single-player game. The player has an inherent advantage. It is, of course, reasonable to present challenges, at which this game fails, but just because the player can do more than the AI, it does not qualify as a cheat. Hey! Monsters in Quake cannot use weapons but I can! I sense a cheat! /sarcasm
In the end, I agree on the point that VATS is poorly balanced and buggy and not well-implemented, but the word "cheat" is an inappropriate way to describe it.
Sir Mildred Pierce
First time out of the vault
Barbalute said:
Oh my bad, I forgot to drop the <sarcasm> tag re: the original posters claim that using VATS is "cheating". But if you couldn't tell I pretty much agree with you.
Goddamit, I can't believe they pulled this one off: just because both you and the NPC have slowed down doesn't mean that both have slowed down equally. Just grab any VATS video on YouTube and take a look for yourself. For example, in this one, you'll see the main character reloading at a much faster pace than he should compared to the ghoul's movements. And also, from the Fallout Wiki: "The player character is invulnerable to most damage (e.g. explosions, gunshots, etc.) taken during actions in V.A.T.S."Sir Mildred Pierce said:
If those difficulty settings would allow you to take several free shots at your enemies then yes, it would be cheating.Sir Mildred Pierce said:
Okay, comparing combat advantages...
You: You have VATS and any weapons available to you. You also get perks and sometimes one or two companions.
Enemies: Often come by the half-dozen, have a computer aiming for them ALL the time, are unaffected by radiation(Outside ghouls, who gain health by via radiation), and also they often have unlimited ammo rather than use the supply on them. The exception is grenades, rockets, and .308 rounds I think. Regardless.
And also, In fallout 1 and 2 you could AIM at specific parts without a problem and blow them up. The enemies couldn't do this. Would you consider that a cheat system as well?
You: You have VATS and any weapons available to you. You also get perks and sometimes one or two companions.
Enemies: Often come by the half-dozen, have a computer aiming for them ALL the time, are unaffected by radiation(Outside ghouls, who gain health by via radiation), and also they often have unlimited ammo rather than use the supply on them. The exception is grenades, rockets, and .308 rounds I think. Regardless.
And also, In fallout 1 and 2 you could AIM at specific parts without a problem and blow them up. The enemies couldn't do this. Would you consider that a cheat system as well?
Enemies are also retarded and don't have an infinite supply of stimpacks that they can use instantly at any time.
Aiming at body parts in originals cost more AP, which actually mattered in those games. You couldn't fire three aimed shots and then burst umpteen times. It was also harder to hit with an aimed shot. Blowing them up? You're thinking of the wrong game I think... Maybe the enemies couldn't aim at body parts in previous titles, but you could get hit in one and if you got it crippled it meant trouble unlike in 3.
Aiming at body parts in originals cost more AP, which actually mattered in those games. You couldn't fire three aimed shots and then burst umpteen times. It was also harder to hit with an aimed shot. Blowing them up? You're thinking of the wrong game I think... Maybe the enemies couldn't aim at body parts in previous titles, but you could get hit in one and if you got it crippled it meant trouble unlike in 3.
"blow them up" was a mis-used phrase, though it true in regards to chucked grenades, rockets, and anything that blows up whatever you aim at.
and true, crippled damage did matter back then, but that isn't the focus of this thread
Also, In Fallout 3 you can get crippled too. It's happened to me in various situations. Maybe the AI aims for whatever part is most damaged to begin with? I don't know.
Also, it was harder to hit with an aimed shot because the normal shots had low hit chances too. Once you beef up your small guns stat or whatever, Aiming becomes useful; same for VATS if you ask me. In the beginning of the game, I barely used it. Maybe for one or two finishing shots.
and true, crippled damage did matter back then, but that isn't the focus of this thread
Also, In Fallout 3 you can get crippled too. It's happened to me in various situations. Maybe the AI aims for whatever part is most damaged to begin with? I don't know.Also, it was harder to hit with an aimed shot because the normal shots had low hit chances too. Once you beef up your small guns stat or whatever, Aiming becomes useful; same for VATS if you ask me. In the beginning of the game, I barely used it. Maybe for one or two finishing shots.
Rev. Layle
A Smooth-Skin
Herr Mike said:
And with hotkeys, you don't even need to do that... unless you just want to "pause"
Rev. Layle
A Smooth-Skin
nemetoad said:
as well as change your weapons, your armor, reload every weapons, and pump up on any aid or combat chems - for the cost of 4 APs - unless you had Quick Pockets, then it was 2 AP (in F2, in F1 - I think - Quick Pockets was a ranked perk).
So basically, not that MUCH different.
It had an AP cost, so you had to think about it.
They could make you equip them to use them. Like a gun, with one shot, then you have to get another one.
I wish they would have it so Power Armor gave cool benefits like automatically admistering stimpacks, or even VATS capability.
They could make you equip them to use them. Like a gun, with one shot, then you have to get another one.
I wish they would have it so Power Armor gave cool benefits like automatically admistering stimpacks, or even VATS capability.
Holocausto
It Wandered In From the Wastes
I play on 'very hard' setting which I'm told your foes will do 200% damage to you while you do 50%. It helps make up for the disadvantaged AI and their limitations. Also I run this excellent VATS mod (search fallout nexus site) where it matches the damage taken and dealt while in VATS to that of realtime so it really improves it to where you don't feel like you are cheating. Now it's more of a "gamble" when you do VATS as you'll have to choose your weapon & tactics carefully and it also immensely helps to ambush with it that way the enemy is taken off guard and responds slower to you. I recommend playing on very hard + using that mod, such an improvement.
Systems are suppose to be become better/more advanced over time. 10 years has passed since Fallout 1.... and yet VATS strikes me as less advanced than Aimed shots in Fallout 1.
Is VATS a combat system or is a cheat? For me it's a badly balanced combat system that seems tacked on to the Obilivion FPS system. Balancing any 1 system requires time & money, but Fallout 3 uses 2 combat systems and suffers as a result of it. I would have preferred they forget VATS and just go with "Deus Ex" style of FPS... assuming of course I couldn't get an improved version of Fallout 1's system. Fallout 1 with JA combat what a game that would have been. <drool>
Is VATS a combat system or is a cheat? For me it's a badly balanced combat system that seems tacked on to the Obilivion FPS system. Balancing any 1 system requires time & money, but Fallout 3 uses 2 combat systems and suffers as a result of it. I would have preferred they forget VATS and just go with "Deus Ex" style of FPS... assuming of course I couldn't get an improved version of Fallout 1's system. Fallout 1 with JA combat what a game that would have been. <drool>
Which is very very (I mean VERY!) doubtfull.override367 said:
Fallout 3 Afterthoughts
"[spoiler:866aa9f276]1UP: Somewhat related to that: Why are companions not an option for inputting the Project Purity code? You already have the option to have Sentinel Lyons input the code in your place. There are three viable options for an alternate to input the code: Fawkes, Sergeant RL-3N, and Charon. The player has already experienced a situation where Fawkes can enter an irradiated room and perform a task, RL-3N should follow his programming to obey you, and Charon would not only become healthier due to the radiation, but he's established as essentially a slave who will do whatever his contract-holder orders him to do. To the player, the inability for either to input the code seems really contradictory.
Emil Pagliarulo: That's a great question, and one that's obviously come up quite a bit in different forums. Let me try to shed some light on why the game is like that -- it's a pretty interesting look inside the development process.
All of the followers were implemented into the game fairly late in development, after the main story had already been nailed down. So, you know, we had the scene at the end of the game, with deadly radiation, and never really compensated for the fact that you could have a Supermutant, or Ghoul, or robot, who could possibly turn the purifier on for you. We'd only ever planned for you sending Sarah Lyons into the purifier, because we knew, from a story standpoint, that she'd definitely be in there with you.
[/spoiler:866aa9f276]
What we could do -- and what we did ultimately do -- is cover that stuff in dialogue. You can ask those followers to go into the purifier, and they'll tell you why they won't. We felt that fit with their personalities, but really, they didn't "sell" that to the player in a single line of dialogue. So, in the end, the player's left with a, "Huh, why the hell can't they do it?!" sort of feeling."
So the story does kind of break down. But you know what? We knew that, and were OK with it, because the trade-off is, well, you get these cool followers to join you. You meet up with Fawkes near the end of the game, and it's true you can go right with him to the purifier. So we could've not had him there as a follower, and that would've solved the problem of him not going into the purifier -- because, at that point in development, that was the only fix we had time for. But we kept it, and players got him as a follower, and they seem to love adventuring him with. Gameplay trumped story, in that example -- as I believe it should have.
So if we'd planned better, we could've addressed that more satisfactorily. But considering how it all went down, I feel good about the decision we made there.
So Emil basicaly agrees that they knew about the "chessy" story and its ending but feelt "ok" with it. Does tell a lot about their future plans with Sellout 4 if you ask me ...
Rev. Layle
A Smooth-Skin
Basically... they ran out of time to do it right?
*facepalm* - well not like this isn't common in the industry
At least do the story and how followers interact with the story WAY before you are in that "shit we gotta fix stuff in time phase"
*facepalm* - well not like this isn't common in the industry
At least do the story and how followers interact with the story WAY before you are in that "shit we gotta fix stuff in time phase"