V.A.T.S. is NOT a combat system

[Sir Mildred Pierce]

^ You said:

I thought VATS was supposed to provide some appeal to those that like the RPG aspect of the game and aren't good at FPS games.

You defined it already. Why would an RPG game need to include extra RPG aspects to appeal to those who aren't good at FPS? And why would someone need to be good at FPS to play an RPG? There, you said it.

I was merely picking on what you said. FOO isn't really an FPS, it's an MMO.

So there's absolutely NO ROOM for any sort of cross-over, combination of the two genres....?

 

[Per]

So there's absolutely NO ROOM for any sort of cross-over, combination of the two genres....?

People can make any kind of game they want. Preferably they shouldn't be making Fallout any kind of game they want.

 

[override367]

I can live with Bethesda if Fallout 4 is as much of a step up as Fallout 3 is over Oblivion.

They just need to hire some talented writers, the rest is gravy

 

[ferrety]

For the last time, stop referring to V.A.T.S. as an alternative to real-time, as a combat system, because it isn't: it's a glorified cheating menu.

The reason? It's pretty obvious: you can use it, while your enemies can't.

So drop it.

I can use it but my enemies can't? So what like all my enemies are actually using their mouse to aim at me?

Gee, I kinda assumed that my enemies were going through the same skill checks, spending AP, aiming for specific body parts, etc. that I was in VATS. If that's true, how is that any different what I'm doing in VATS?

Would you prefer that when they attack you the game freezes for five seconds and tells you in advance which body part they are aiming at or something? Can you elaborate when you say "you can use it, while your enemies can't", because what you are claiming is anything but "obvious" to me.

Um, Hoka is 'obviously' correct. The computer does not use VATS. VATS is different from real time combat, and the computer only fights in real time.

Your assumptions are wrong.

Case in point: Have you ever had a gun shot out of your hands? I know i haven't, but it's pretty easy to do in VATS to an enemy, and even possible in real time.

I also doubt the enemy 'stat checks' are anything like ours in VATS, or at least, most enemy stats are 1 1 1 1 1 1 because most can't hit a fly.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

So there's absolutely NO ROOM for any sort of cross-over, combination of the two genres....?

Of course there is. I generally tend to hate those though...

In the end all I was trying to say is that the guy's statement that FOO is a fully-fledged RPG after all he said does not make sense.

 

[MajorDanger]

V.A.T.S. is most definitely not RTwP; it's more akin to bullet-time, a form of cheating, since only the player can shoot during that period.

You're being very stupid. Stop.

You still get shot up while using VATS.

 

[golfmade]

Was nearly out of AP against a Super Mutant Master and he was up in my face with his 'board of education' (pun intended as that was the name of it after I picked it up from his corpse) and as I just had enough AP to use VATS again and took my shots he still laid into me for quite a bit of damage, all while VATS was doing it's thang.

 

[HoKa]

V.A.T.S. is most definitely not RTwP; it's more akin to bullet-time, a form of cheating, since only the player can shoot during that period.

You're being very stupid. Stop.

You still get shot up while using VATS.

You fire faster, and your bullets travel quicker, and the damage done to you is reduced. The enemy can't pull this on you (them firing faster and their bullets traveling quicker while receiving less damage).

I seriously don't understand why you people can't see it's a cheat.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

It's not a cheat, it's just a poorly balanced combat mechanic.

 

[Trithne]

It's not a cheat, it's just a poorly balanced combat mechanic.

Pretty much this. You can tell Bethsoft didn't want to make it, but did it as a badly done, tacked on concession.

 

[HoKa]

It's not a cheat, it's just a poorly balanced combat mechanic.

And how is an on-purpose poorly balanced combat mechanic not a cheat?

 

[TheRatKing]

Cheats are usually given by the player to make the game easier than it already is. This is Fallout 3s original mechanic, and so it is not cheating. VATS is horribly done because people didn't like being killed during the slo mo shooting. Obviously slo mo cannot be taken away because it is oh so cool, so Beth decided to simply reduce damage taken in VATS, a lazy choice.

 

[HoKa]

Cheats are usually given <strike>by</strike> to the player to make the game easier than it already is. This is Fallout 3's original mechanic, and so it is not cheating. VATS is horribly done because people didn't like being killed during the slo-mo shooting. Obviously slo-mo cannot be taken away because it is oh so cool, so Beth decided to simply reduce damage taken in VATS, a lazy choice.

So if I make an original game mechanic that allows the computer to see everything the player is doing, whereas the player's view is still obscured by a fog-of-war, the computer does not cheat?

Fuck, man, just grab a fucking dictionary and look the word "cheat" up.

 

[nuanil]

I downloaded this mod last night, and love it. It gives me great hope about what can happen with the tools when they are released (hopefully sooner than later).

It's a great attempt to simulate a turn based environment, within the comfines of waht is available for modding.

150% damage taken, 13 seconds of delay after executing VATS, instant AP regeneration. It's not perfect, but it gives me hope of seeing what I envisioned when I first heard about VATS.


http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=128

 

[TheRatKing]

1. An act of cheating; a fraud or swindle.
2. One who cheats; a swindler.
3. A computer application, password, or disallowed technique used to advance to a higher skill level in a computer video game.
4. Law Fraudulent acquisition of another's property.
5. Botany An annual European species of brome grass (Bromus secalinus) widely naturalized in temperate regions.

This was on dictionary.com, but it really depends on what definition you use. Cheats can be unfair play, or they could be some sort of code that you type in the console, I guess both are versions of cheating. VATS is certainly unfair.

 

[Barbalute]

So does using smart tactics count as cheating because it gives you an advantage?

VATs in neither a computer application, password, or disallowed technique. I don't see how it constitutes cheating.

 

[Per]

Maybe HoKa is looking at this strictly from a PnP perspective. In most RPGs, PCs and NPCs use the same rule framework for instance in battle. You might make sure that the PCs have good enough values to be able to kick ass, or you might have some PC-specific rule mechanic like Fate Points, but you don't just apply a +20% bonus to every skill check done by a PC because it would be a blatant and awkward meta-device. Similarly, you don't introduce an elaborate aimed blow mechanic and let the PCs be the only ones in the world that use it. Some games might decide that random goons use a simplified stat set and never use special skills or attacks, but named enemies or NPCs that are otherwise supposedly on par with the PCs would be able to use it. If you expect Fallout 3 to be true to its PnP roots in the same way the first game was, then yes, you could think VATS is a crutch and a cop-out. But since it isn't, you probably shouldn't.

 

[Sir Mildred Pierce]

V.A.T.S. is most definitely not RTwP; it's more akin to bullet-time, a form of cheating, since only the player can shoot during that period.

You're being very stupid. Stop.

You still get shot up while using VATS.

You fire faster, and your bullets travel quicker, and the damage done to you is reduced. The enemy can't pull this on you (them firing faster and their bullets traveling quicker while receiving less damage).

I seriously don't understand why you people can't see it's a cheat.

You fire faster? Our bullets travel quicker, wha? Do you have any proof to back that up? damage done to us is reduced? What does that even have to do with VATS? So if we don't use VATS will they do normal damage on us then?

Of course the big question is: Does any of what you say hold true at the harder levels?

If not, then I don't see how it is "cheating", if that's true then every frickin' game ever made that let you select a difficulty level is cheating.

 

[Sir Mildred Pierce]

So does using smart tactics count as cheating because it gives you an advantage?

Oh man, that's BIG TIME cheating! The only fair way to not be a cheater is to always let the baddie know you are there, and to let him have the first hit.

 

[citixensinister]

V.A.T.S. is most definitely not RTwP; it's more akin to bullet-time, a form of cheating, since only the player can shoot during that period.

You're being very stupid. Stop.

You still get shot up while using VATS.

You fire faster, and your bullets travel quicker, and the damage done to you is reduced. The enemy can't pull this on you (them firing faster and their bullets traveling quicker while receiving less damage).

I seriously don't understand why you people can't see it's a cheat.

You fire faster? Our bullets travel quicker, wha? Do you have any proof to back that up? damage done to us is reduced? What does that even have to do with VATS? So if we don't use VATS will they do normal damage on us then?

Of course the big question is: Does any of what you say hold true at the harder levels?

If not, then I don't see how it is "cheating", if that's true then every frickin' game ever made that let you select a difficulty level is cheating.

The 'innovative-ness' of VATS is anyone's opinion and guess. My take is this: VATS is 'Realtime with a form of bullet time with abilities akin to Pause'. This doesn't look too much like an innovation, it looks like an attempt to push two combat styles togather: RTwP and Bullet Time.

To say that VATS is Bullet Time is over generalizing, playing Matrix or Max Payne will show you how Bullet Time work. Which does not fit the description of VATS, because in VATS I can queue up my shots, Bullet Time doesn't.

RTwP is not right either, since it completely pauses the combat and you can't get hit, like KOTOR. Although you can completely go into the inventory and char's page.

The 'inovei-shun' is when they combine those two elements togather into VATS.

I believe that when you use VATS your queued up shots are shot at a much faster rate. Not to say that your bullets actually fire faster, but rather the enemy can get hit much more frequantly than he can hit you. Therefore, it is a form of 'cheat', not to say it is a cheat per-se if that's how the developers intended. It is more like a 'legal-cheat' for a lack of better word.